Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part XVIII
- Thread starter aufheben
- Start date
-
Xenforo Cloud will be upgrading us to version 2.3.5 on March 3rd at 12 AM GMT. This version has increased stability and fixes several bugs. We expect downtime for the duration of the update. The admin team will continue to work on existing issues, templates and upgrade all necessary available addons to minimize impact of this new version. Click Here for Updates
- Status
LaffyTaffy
Brooklyn-Belarussian
If there were a way to acquire Nylander without giving up an A+ prospect I would jump on that. I know ADA has been fantastic and we dont know what Kravtsov or Miller will be yet but I just dont want to give them up. Im not even that worried about Nylander's dip in production, I just dont think that it is necessary considering the fact that we would be helping the leafs out of Cap Hell and looking at the Hall return it would make us look stupid. ADA + Buch and maybe something to balance from the Leafs end.
Everyone is talking about picking up Nylander but we have Panarin, Z, Chytil, Buch, Kakko and hopefully Kravstov who are all talented top six caliber players who aren’t that physical. Lemieux can’t be the teams only forward with a spine. I’ve brought up Jenner before and I’m more and more in that boat every day. Strome for Jenner, straight across. Kreider for Crouse + 1st. Yeah, we lose some offense, but we get something we lack worse and the offense will improve as Kakko and hopefully Kravstov get up to NHL speed. We’re gonna lose games with or without Strome and Kreider, but at least if we add a couple guys like Jenner and Crouse our young guys won’t be learning to get pushed around and play with little heart along the way. Strome and Kreider are picking up points being in the right place with the right combo of Panarin or Z on the ice anyway. I’m fine with shipping both out tomorrow for grit and character.
Gardner McKay
RIP, Jimmy.
That one would hurt. On a significantly more talented team, Nylander has lower production than ADA. To be fair, I've never been a Nylander fan but even as I try to be unbiased, I just feel like he isn't enough/isn't the player I want to move ADA for.
Maybe I am being unrealistic. I dunno. I just know if that trade happened tomorrow I would be extremely disappointed in JG.
LaffyTaffy
Brooklyn-Belarussian
Am I crazy to want a 1st and another pick for Kreider? Im tired of B level prospects, you can only collect so many. If you can add a 3rd in the deal and take a swing like we did with Zac Jones I would much much rather do that. It buys you time and you dont need to make more room in your organization yet. Hartford is doing well, and while there is always room for improvement we need to stop ignoring the fact that B level prospects want opportunities with the big club as well. We can't just hoard mediocre kids. This is not a knock on Jost I think he is a valid NHL player, this is with regards to general trade speculation.
LaffyTaffy
Brooklyn-Belarussian
We can acquire grit by replacing guys like Smith Haley and McKegg. Nylander would help this team a great deal, and if Gorton wants grit then he can take the Dman off the 4th line and put in a tough guy who can actually play hockey. Gone are the days of the Mike Rupps and Brandon Prusts, now we have plugs like Haley. Makes me sick.
Buch drives a lot of people crazy on this board but if Nylander stays at 60-65 point production and we argue Buch has topped out at 45, there isn’t a chance in hell I’d give up ADA to make that trade happen. I wouldn’t do ADA for Nylander one for one, most likely. Nylander IS super talented with high pedigree but he also is one dimensional and overrated based on name, draft position and the market he plays in. ADA is trending in the right direction and one of our few guys who stands up for his teammates and shows grit. I’m not in favor of that kind of move. I’d do Kravstov + Fast or something in that vein. Helps them out of cap hell and gives them a prospect who hopefully ends up as good as Nylander. Yes RHD is a position of strength, but grit and a feisty mentality is not. Nylander’s offensive punch would be welcome but he’s mega soft and I’d rather move Kravstov whose ceiling essentially is becoming Nylander than move ADA.
I agree with that, but tough guys who can PLAY are at a premium now. Guys like Kuraly, Cizikas, etc. aren’t move often because their teams know they’re more valuable to them than on the trade market. You’d have to get one as part of the return in a trade. I wouldn’t be against Nylander. Right after the post you quoted I wrote another about acquiring Nylander. I just also want to add some grit. If that’s what we get for Strome/Kreider and then we turn around and also add Nylander that would be a total homerun.
- Oct 23, 2014
- 30,342
- 43,028
Every team fans say this cliche, just like only the Rangers are responsible for players breaking their long goalless or pointless streaks.
NYR Viper
Registered User
It's not a crazy thought, but I happen to believe that some of these secondary pieces will be moved to fill other holes. So while guys like Lindgren, Hajek, Howede, etc aren't 'sexy', by becoming NHL players they are increasing their values and giving Gorton more options as he moves forward.
I’m with you. Even if Nylander jumps back to being a 65-70 point winger, I don’t know that I move a potential 50 point Dman for a 65 point winger. I would not be against acquiring Nylander. Running Panarin on line one and Nylander on line two would be great. I just don’t think that ADA should be the guy we’re moving.
By some lists it was 2 of the top 5, but certainly not by all. And the Coyotes had a mediocre system to begin with--I've seen them ranked anywhere from 16 or 17 down into the mid-20's. So it may have been difficult for Arizona to give up those guys, given their relative dearth of prospects, but that doesn't make the prospects themselves more valuable. Arizona clearly has two top prospects then a major drop.
How the deal felt from Arizona's perspective is irrelevant to whether or not the prospects they picked up are any good. Bahl is okay. B-level. The others are nothing remotely special. It might have been hard for Arizona to part with them, but that doesn't make them good--it just reflects a relatively weak system.
It was quantity over quality. I think if we traded Kreider to, say, Minnesota and didn't get Kaprizov or Boldy, but got two other guys from their top ten, people would be pissed. Because their top ten sucks. Or if Boston gave us a first and Trent Frederic. Same thing.
- Aug 5, 2010
- 13,857
- 9,487
Do not want Kreider for 7 years at UFA salary and it would be very unlikely he'd go for 5 (Shattenkirk situation and hist decision to take less is very uncommon).
But hearing that Panthers offered Trocheck to Devils made me think about doing a combination of a hockey / deadline trade with FL involving Skjei and Kreider on our side in exchange for Trocheck (who has two more years after this season) plus X from Panthers, where X represents rental value for Kreider's services this year.
Fire away!
I think if the Panthers offered Trocheck to the Devils it was probably under the guise of a deal with an extension in place. I would imagine that died as soon as Shero said he wouldn't let Tallon talk about a contract with Hall's camp.
NYR Viper
Registered User
I understand the thought process here, but I don't think Florida wants to spend more money on their defense
Tawnos
A guy with a bass
I don't think most people would be pissed at all. You have your idiots, but you always have your idiots. I think that's what the majority expects. The Nash and Hayes deals are the templates people have in mind. 1st+prospect with bottom-6 or bottom-pair potential.
And Arizona's perspective absolutely matters when trying to use their trade to try to predict the outlines of another trade. That's because it's exactly the same concept when other teams are negotiating: what is their perspective. Arizona was willing to give up 3 top-10 prospects, plus a 1st and a conditional top-90 pick. A team looking to trade for Kreider would be looking to give up a 1st+one top-10 prospect in their system. Alternatively, they could be willing to give up a top-5 prospect in their system and a lower pick.
I don't think any of the rational posters around here are expecting a 1st+Kaprizov trade for Kreider. I hope you don't really pay much attention to what the irrational posters think.
I hear and understand everyone’s concerns over the element that is lost from our top six if Kreider goes but I still don’t see it as a reason to bring Kreider back. He’s trending down and his contract will not be “team friendly”. All that means is that we have to target a guy who isn’t all finesse who has a top six pedigree in another move. We have ammunition. People seem to feel ADA is the odd man out inevitably as the right side shapes up. Skjei is probably still a guy who holds good value with NHL GMs due to age and contract. A lot of people want to move Buch and he’s a productive young player who will have trade value. We’ve got guys like Hajek, Howden, Andersson and lesser prospects in the system. We’ve had a lot of picks and can move a 2nd or 3rd. So you make a package (ADA/Skjei/Buch + Howden/Hajek + 2nd) and you’re trying to find a guy like Tkachuk or Lee or Wilson (examples, not actual targets). A lot easier said than done, but that’s the route I’d rather see the team take.
We see a lot of future oriented posts that still include virtually everyone who is currently in the system. That’s not how it ever shakes out and the rebuild isn’t as close to being over as many feel/felt. If you wanna say we’ve shifted out of the bottom out phase into the shaping and retooling phase, that’s fine, but now is the time to determine who fits long term, where the strengths and weaknesses are and start making some of the tougher decisions to craft the roster we want to compete with 2+ years from now. For starters I think we need a “power forward” type for the top six, an upgrade on the LHD to play top pair and MUCH better fourth line depth that can actually play, and will get in opponents faces. Now is the time to create the keepers and (potential) trade bait piles and over the next year we need to craft the roster we want and can compete with.
It's funny yesterday I was just watching old hits from Callahan, Staal, Girardi... crazy how things have changed in no time at all. I'm sure half of those would be illegal today, even though they weren't dirty, "hit to the head" "roughing"... Something, they gotta call it something nowadays
The genesis of the conversation was that I looked at the Hall trade, and I think that Kreider will get a good bit less. 1+2/3+B+filler for Hall. 1+3+filler or 2+B+filler for Kreider. I could absolutely see it.
The second paragraph, I just don't agree. "Top ten prospect in their system." "Top five prospect in their system." That's totally subjective as all the systems are constructed differently. A top five from our system is different than a top five from Boston's system. I'm not disputing the idea that it's harder for some teams to justify giving up that top five player than others, but in the end the trade is judged two ways--the team receiving Krieder, and the team giving up Kreider. Arizona is thrilled because they gave up no one of true consequence, a late first, and a pick that very realistically could be a third. Great deal on their end. New Jersey is not being praised because they acquired those picks, and "three guys in the top ten!" The general response seems to be, eh, a first and Bahl is okay, the rest is whatever. Had they traded Hall to us and picked up three of our top ten guys, it would be a different story. I don't care how the team that gets Kreider feels. I care about how we feel.
The point of all of this is that I think the Kreider return might be underwhelming, because I'm not sure he's thought of as highly as some want to think. And while some feel that the Hall deal helps us in moving Kreider as it takes the biggest name off the market, I'm not sure--I think it lowers the bar because New Jersey's return kind of sucked (I say this as objectively as possible; Bahl has consistently underwhelmed me and outside the first he's the biggest piece).
As an example, could something like Skjei + Strome (plus some minor add if necessary) pry a Brayden Schenn loose? We take Gunnarsson back for salary and St. Louis, who has a stacked right side but nothing but an aging Bouwmeester on the left gets a young LHD accustomed to playing big minutes who’d be in a much better position for success. Strome can slot in at C and they have the offensive depth to surround him with strong wingers. Obviously they probably don’t want to move Schenn, but that’s simply an example of the kind of calls I might be making. I would make a list of all the physical top six guys around the entire league and start calling with packages made up of the guys we’ve decided aren’t going to be in the core going forward but still hold value.
Oscar Lindberg
Registered User
I'm expecting Kreider to return similar to Hayes. If that's a 1st and Frederic, so be it. I don't like Frederic all that much, but I wasn't a big fan of Lemuiex either and he's turned into a competent bottom 6 player at least.
If he gets less, then I'll complain, as I had been banging the drum to trade him during the summer.
If he gets less, then I'll complain, as I had been banging the drum to trade him during the summer.
Mac n Gs
Drury plz
- Jan 17, 2014
- 22,835
- 13,558
I'm going to guess a Kreider deal is either incentive-based like the Zucc deal or simply focused around a younger player. If we want a guaranteed first, we're probably going to have to package Kreider with additional assets to raise the value of the trade on both sides.
Hypothetically, let's say that COL deal for Jost actually materializes. Would Kreider and the DAL 2020 3rd for Jost and conditional 2020 3rd (becomes either something like a 2021 2nd or a 2020 1st if they make the ECF and/or he re-signs) be a bad deal?
Schenn has an 8 year deal kicking in at $6.5M. I'm not too sure I'd want to get locked in on a long-term deal like that for a 28 year old.
Hypothetically, let's say that COL deal for Jost actually materializes. Would Kreider and the DAL 2020 3rd for Jost and conditional 2020 3rd (becomes either something like a 2021 2nd or a 2020 1st if they make the ECF and/or he re-signs) be a bad deal?
Schenn has an 8 year deal kicking in at $6.5M. I'm not too sure I'd want to get locked in on a long-term deal like that for a 28 year old.
Oscar Lindberg
Registered User
I'd probably grumble initially because I'd want at least a hard 2nd round pick with no conditions
But I'd get over it quickly because I like Jost
Tawnos
A guy with a bass
I understand the genesis of the conversation. I'm trying to say that I don't agree with that method of looking at this. I also don't think it's borne out by history. Something else to mention: 1+3+filler and 2+B+filler aren't equal trades. B prospects and a 3rd round picks are roughly equivalent in value, with the slight edge to the prospect. Switching from a 3rd rounder to a B prospect isn't enough to drop the pick from a 1st to a 2nd. It's more like switching the 3rd round to a B prospect would drop the filler.
And of course it's subjective. It's ALWAYS subjective to the teams making the trade. That's exactly my point. When it comes to trying to look at what one trade means to a future trade, it doesn't really matter what a team is giving up or getting, it matters what a team *thinks* it's giving up or getting. Public reaction is no judge of that. Chayka wasn't willing to move their absolute top prospects, as is always the case with rental trades, but next-level down prospects were available and in quantity.
The teams looking to trade for Kreider are going to have the same attitude. The key for Gorton is to identify the right team and the right prospects. That's where the public reaction has more value and where Shero likely messed up.
- Status
Latest posts
-
-
Confirmed with Link: Meme/Like Thread 7 - A New Thread for a New Year- Latest: TheGreenTBer
Ad
Upcoming events
-
Armada Blainville Boisbriand @ Charlottetown IslandersWagers: 2Staked: $108.00Event closes- Updated:
-
-
-
-
