Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part XVIII

[Avery16]

I don't think Trouba will ever be close to those D-men you mentioned. At best he is a 50 point scorer. Plus he is a bit of a defensive liability. He's not very good getting in front of shots, using his stick to deflect them. I have seen many times this season, forwards shooting right through him, using him as a screen and scoring. He is very good on the boards winning battles, clearing pucks, and other such things, but is not an overall great D-man like those you mentioned.

One of the reasons we are scoring goals this year is due to our blueline getting involved. It has always taken a unit of 5 to play well together. So whether the top lines improve the blueline or visa versa, they both complement each other offensively, and defensively too. And being we have both in spades, (2 top lines and a foward blueline) we are lighting up the board more often than not.

We have two top lines that most teams don't. Strome and Panarin carried us when Zibad was out for a month. And they show no signs of slowing down. Zibad is probably now,.. getting his wind and legs back after being out a month. And he has always played well with Kreids and Buch. But if you were to ask me to choose, Strome's line would be number one. Don't under rate either lines impacts, just because they don't have marquee names.

There was (is?) a reported named Sherry Ross who annually published a book with scouting reports on all players in the NHL. Basically a page per player. It wasn’t bad. Very mainstream.

But the description of Nik Lidstrom sticks out. He is said to be a great No 3 but someone who isn’t special enough to be able to become a top pairing D. And it certainly is a totally fair assumption. He played behind Coffey in Detroit. He was just this really good second pairing D at the age of 25. Like 10 years later he has 7 Norris Trophies.

Scott Neidermayer was also far from being seen as elite when he was 25. He got what 2 of the Norris Ts Lidstrom didn’t get.

From my POV it comes down to this, and a big part of this team’s ability to contend comes down to this, and that is that we must get a top line that can go head to head with the other top lines in the East. And, I don’t think Zibanejad is a good fit at center on a line like that. I love Ziba, so impressed by him in many ways and he seems like a great guy. But the top lines, especially Boston’s line, Tampa’s when they are playing well, Sid and so forth they do a darn darn good job out there.

I think Panarin is a great start to match them, but he needs a center more towards Bergeron, someone really smart that can weigh things up, and that doesn’t travel as much N-S like Ziba does without the ability to make up for it with super good agility.

If we can get that, I think Trouba could excel on defense behind a top line like that.

I like Trouba. His contract isn't very risky. It wasn't a bad trade, even though Pionk is also developing and Heinola looks to have been a worthwhile pick as well. Trouba can still find another gear, but he'll have to in order to be mentioned in the same breath as Lidstrom, Coffey, or Niedermayer, not to mention those like Chara, Leetch, Zubov, MacInnis, Pronger, Stevens etc. Not there yet, and there is at least some basis for some to doubt if he'll get there. Fox and ADA are also legit. This is the cap era, tough choices have to be made. Maybe it won't be Trouba, but it will be someone, and soon.

 

[Barnaby]

It is only a fantasy to those who say that it is a fantasy. Do I think that he will be traded? Yes. Do I think that there is absolutely no chance that he is brought back? Of course not. There is a path.

Let's not deal in absolutes. Leave that for the Sith.

I don’t see a path unless you mean he sustains a major injury, and is willing to sign for a lot less than market. I don’t think the Rangers have any intention of resigning him. Its seemed like that for awhile now, and a so far disappointing year certainly shouldn’t change that. It’s never smart to say 100% ... but it’s def something I’m EXTREMELY comfortable predicting. Of course, I wouldn’t be surprised to see a couple Brooks articles in the post about being in contact etc... like they did with Hayes.

 

[pld459666]

I don't think Trouba will ever be close to those D-men you mentioned. At best he is a 50 point scorer. Plus he is a bit of a defensive liability. He's not very good getting in front of shots, using his stick to deflect them. I have seen many times this season, forwards shooting right through him, using him as a screen and scoring. He is very good on the boards winning battles, clearing pucks, and other such things, but is not an overall great D-man like those you mentioned.

One of the reasons we are scoring goals this year is due to our blueline getting involved. It has always taken a unit of 5 to play well together. So whether the top lines improve the blueline or visa versa, they both complement each other offensively, and defensively too. And being we have both in spades, (2 top lines and a foward blueline) we are lighting up the board more often than not.

We have two top lines that most teams don't. Strome and Panarin carried us when Zibad was out for a month. And they show no signs of slowing down. Zibad is probably now,.. getting his wind and legs back after being out a month. And he has always played well with Kreids and Buch. But if you were to ask me to choose, Strome's line would be number one. Don't under rate either lines impacts, just because they don't have marquee names.

Lol, at best a 50 point scorer.

Meanwhile only 13 defenders touched that number last year.

 

[Barnaby]

Yes, they do.

"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. I mean those words were only uttered by the greatest player to ever play the game. Maybe he was onto something.

He was also one of the greatest passers in NHL history.

 

[Barnaby]

Trouba is a 1B

He's never going to be a Norris contendor or anything but he's a top pairing defenseman

He's had some issues with his play this year and things like his decision making. Which I find hard to understand because he was very good in Winnipeg.

Things like quality of partner and defense scheme matter obviously, but I just am hard pressed to believe Trouba has suddenly become an idiot since being traded here

Trouba is a fine #2 defenseman. He deserves the minutes he gets. Keep in mind that he plays on a very young and poor defensive club. He’d have a lot less gaffs on structured / strong defensive club.

 

[NYRangers16]

We have 3 D in the top 40 in scoring, they are our 3 RD.

How about we keep them?

How about we balance out our roster a bit? Fixed for you.

 

[NYRangers16]

I don’t see a path unless you mean he sustains a major injury, and is willing to sign for a lot less than market. I don’t think the Rangers have any intention of resigning him. Its seemed like that for awhile now, and a so far disappointing year certainly shouldn’t change that. It’s never smart to say 100% ... but it’s def something I’m EXTREMELY comfortable predicting. Of course, I wouldn’t be surprised to see a couple Brooks articles in the post about being in contact etc... like they did with Hayes.

Exactly Barnaby. True Blue is struggling to accept Kreider is gone, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t happening. The writing is on the wall. The team is turning over the roster, and that’s a healthy thing if they do it correctly. The future is bright.

 

[Barnaby]

Well he also can't be on the table in 3 years because he will have a full NMC. So he's in play now or he's on the team for the next 7 years. It has to be explored at the least.

I mean, you always listen. I wouldn’t be emailing 30 teams to get offers in though. Sure, if some bonafide hypothetical Norris caliber player becomes available I wouldn’t say Trouba is off the table.

 

[Avery16]

Trouba is a fine #2 defenseman. He deserves the minutes he gets. Keep in mind that he plays on a very young and poor defensive club. He’d have a lot less gaffs on structured / strong defensive club.

He's not getting paid like someone who needs structure. He's getting paid to be the structure for the rest of the squad. Agree with deserving the minutes he gets and doing well with them.

 

[Avery16]

I mean, you always listen. I wouldn’t be emailing 30 teams to get offers in though. Sure, if some bonafide hypothetical Norris caliber player becomes available I wouldn’t say Trouba is off the table.

There aren't 30 teams with a need and the cap flexibility. However, there are about two to four that have the need, the ability and motive to significantly overpay in assets to acquire a D like Trouba, locked down for term.

 

[aufheben]

A Rangers blogger today suggested we trade him because he is "below average"

That’s a dumb f***ing idea even besides thinking he’s been bad (which begs the question: why would another team trade for him?) The optics of trading a player 1/3 of a season into a fresh $56M deal are hilariously bad (which maybe isn’t that important in the grand scheme of things but it would certainly make me question management).

Blogs, man...blogs.

 

[Barnaby]

What are you basing this on. When it comes to goals against, expected goals against, shots against,corsi against both have outplayed Trouba. Also, Trouba has played with Skjei while DeAngelo typically plays with Staal or Hajek.

Trouba also plays the toughest minutes by far and is currently the only top pair defenseman on the team. He brings physicality, can pp, or pk. We have no other player like him in our organization. He just forced his way here creating great value, and was signed to a long term deal through his prime. He’s not being traded any time soon in reality. Sure, in a hypothetical world where a team offers to vastly overpay by offering McDavid or Draisaitl he would be dealt, but that’s not happening.

 

[aufheben]

What are you basing this on. When it comes to goals against, expected goals against, shots against,corsi against both have outplayed Trouba. Also, Trouba has played with Skjei while DeAngelo typically plays with Staal or Hajek.

Trouba played a ton of this season with Hajek. More shared 5v5 ice time with Hajek than Georgiev actually. Hajek likely negatively impacted Trouba's play quite a bit, and that's for half of Trouba's total 5v5 ice time this season. Trouba's 5v5 Score-Adjusted CF%Rel is 0.22, so positive but barely, and 13th on the team; It'd be higher if he was playing with Skjei all season. Hajek has a -7.94 CF%Rel for reference.

He gets tough 1D usage while being a 2D.

 

[Barnaby]

Not that I think they should trade him, but the Rangers have proven over and over that this kind of thinking doesn't reflect reality. They've made some pretty harsh business decisions with players they signed as UFAs, and yet UFAs keep wanting to come here.

Yea, not 30 games into a season where a player forces a trade to your team, signs a 7 year deal through his prime, and is the only top pairing D on the roster.

Anyone who thinks this is realistic (not saying you) needs to put down the PS4 controller.

 

[Barnaby]

He's not getting paid like someone who needs structure. He's getting paid to be the structure for the rest of the squad. Agree with deserving the minutes he gets and doing well with them.

Oh stop. That’s ridiculous. Take the best defenseman in the world and he’ll look better with the Bruins or Islanders than he will the Rangers. It’s 5 on 5 out there. He’s paid like a 2 and he plays like a 2. He has an occasional gaff but he’s also the steadying influence back there.

 

[Brooklyn Rangers Fan]

The idea of trading Trouba is inane. No other right defenseman, either on our roster or in our prospect pool, comes close to replicating his size, skill set, and physicality. He'd be almost impossible to replace.

And what everyone who has an axe to grind about *either* Fox or DeAngelo as “better” fails to recognize is that it’s his ability to eat top pairing minutes *on both sides of the ice* that has allowed them in some (large?) part to succeed so well this season.

 

[Barnaby]

There aren't 30 teams with a need and the cap flexibility. However, there are about two to four that have the need, the ability and motive to significantly overpay in assets to acquire a D like Trouba, locked down for term.

Video game logic. 30 games into his 7 year contract when they brought him in to be the young veteran steadying guy to build around. Right after he forced a trade here.

 

[Avery16]

Oh stop. That’s ridiculous. Take the best defenseman in the world and he’ll look better with the Bruins or Islanders than he will the Rangers. It’s 5 on 5 out there. He’s paid like a 2 and he plays like a 2. He has an occasional gaff but he’s also the steadying influence back there.

Sure, most players will look better on better squads. That doesn't address what Trouba's being paid for, though. When he signed that contract, he should have known that he'd be playing > 25:00/night on average, and covering for the mistakes of the lesser paid players. That's how it works. You cant sign a contract like that and then turn around and say you aren't getting support. YOURE the support. Thats what that $ is for.

 

[Avery16]

Video game logic. 30 games into his 7 year contract when they brought him in to be the young veteran steadying guy to build around. Right after he forced a trade here.

If he forced a trade, he did a bad job of it. Try blowing on your cartridge, your logic is glitchy.

 

[Brooklyn Rangers Fan]

If he forced a trade, he did a bad job of it. Try blowing on your cartridge, your logic is glitchy.

Not trying to be confrontational, but...

How so?

it’s working out pretty darn well so far, if you ask me.

 

[Avery16]

And he’s been doing a great job of that IMO..?

Agreed. I've said that a few times. He is earning his contract.

 

[Barnaby]

Sure, most players will look better on better squads. That doesn't address what Trouba's being paid for, though. When he signed that contract, he should have known that he'd be playing > 25:00/night on average, and covering for the mistakes of the lesser paid players. That's how it works. You cant sign a contract like that and then turn around and say you aren't getting support. YOURE the support. Thats what that $ is for.

Who said that? He didn’t say that. I didn’t say that. I merely pointed out that he’s being asked to be a horse and play largely with inexperienced rookie defenseman on one of the worse defensive and youngest teams in the league. I think he’s been really good. I just pointed out that you may see a few more gaffs than usual bc of the position he’s in. You don’t think that’s logical? What are you expecting exactly?

 

[Avery16]

Not trying to be confrontational, but...

How so?

it’s working out pretty darn well so far, if you ask me.

The comment you're replying to has nothing to do with how well anything is "working out". The OP said Trouba forced a trade to NYR. I haven't seen that reported anywhere, but more importantly a first and a good prospect is not the going price for a pending UFA that has "forced" anything.

 

[Brooklyn Rangers Fan]

Agreed. I've said that a few times. He is earning his contract.

You’re too fast for me — I deleted to respond to your next post.

But either way, fair — agreed.

 

[Avery16]

Who said that? He didn’t say that. I didn’t say that. I merely pointed out that he’s being asked to be a horse and play largely with inexperienced rookie defenseman on one of the worse defensive and youngest teams in the league. I think he’s been really good. I just pointed out that you may see a few more gaffs than usual bc of the position he’s in. You don’t think that’s logical? What are you expecting exactly?

To use your new terms, he's being asked to be a horse. Well, he signed a horse's contract. That's the gig. no excuses with that price tag, that literally what you're getting paid for.