Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part XVII What will Santa Gorton bring us?
- Thread starter Gardner McKay
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Ghost of jas
Unsatisfied
All I heard in the last run was how the Rangers didn’t have enough top end talent to win the Cup. So let’s make the same mistakes as the last time and wonder why the Rangers end up in the same place.
Off Sides
Registered User
- Sep 8, 2008
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It depends, if they have all of Hayes, Zbad, Kreider, Skjei, Panarin on the books, 4 of which with no movement clauses.
Glen Sathers Cigar
Sather 4 Ever
Not for nothing, but I think the Rangers win the Cup in 2015 if McD, Staal, Girardi and Zucc all stayed healthy.
That team had their #1D and best skater McD playing on a broken foot, Staal on a torn ankle ligament, Girardi on two torn knee ligaments, Zucc missed 2nd and 3rd rounds with horrible head injury. And they still made it to Game 7 in the ECF and maybe could've even won that game if AV made any kind of adjustment.
Also the 2014 team was 3 wins from winning the Cup and had terrible luck with bad bounces, penalty calls (goalie interference in game 2 in particular) but losing 3 of the games in OT is just such a razor thin margin that series legitimately could've just had easily been a Rangers Cup win. That finals in particular was just bad bounce after bad call after bad bounce for us. That's ignoring the fact that if Chicago won the WCF, we probably smoke them in the Final, we matched up much better with them. They lost that WCF in OT on a fluke goal floater that Crawford should've stopped. Razor's edge.
Whatever people's complaints were during our last window, that team could've and maybe even should've won it all two straight years. They were legitimately good even if they were elevated by having an elite goalie, still good enough to win it all. We just didn't get all the breaks in year 1 and had severe injury problems in year 2.
Fitzy
Very Stable Genius
- Jan 29, 2009
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Ghost of jas
Unsatisfied
End of the day, they didn’t. Quantify any way you choose, the bottom line is they didn’t win the Cup. I like the idea of drafting and developing our own top end players. It’s not overpaying the top end players that restrict teams in the cap era. It’s overpaying good players. Again my interpretation of the letter was that the approach was not to follow what was done in the past. This is a radical departure from how the Rangers go about business. I’m not satisfied with Hayes in my top six. I’m willing to take the risk that Gorton and crew will draft this year’s center prospect in the mold of Miller or Kravtsov. I’m not interested in seeing the Rangers play it safe.
I mean that was a major, major part of the equation, not a footnote.
That was a good team though, but they're 2nd round fodder with a lesser goalie. Even then, they had a window of 4 years where they were a legitimate threat to win.
We should be striving for more kicks at the can than that. Washington was basically a contender for a decade before they finally broke through.
That is a bit unfair. Your statements that if the Rangers go with Zbad and Hayes, is that it is more of the same. Fine, but the theory seems to be rooted in something that is not true (unless I am not understanding you). You are presuming two things. That the talent level of the Rangers will not be greater than it was a when they were making a run and that the overall play of Zbad and Hayes will also stay that the same level.
Almost all of us have agreed (if you disagree, please say so) that Zbad is viewed by both management and the fanbase (ourselves) as a legit top line center. That is a piece of the equation. The next piece is Hayes. He represents the second line center. We have talked about scoring 60 points from that position. You said that half the league has such a center. In fact, there are about 8 teams. To further that along, last year, there were 35 centers in the entire league that scored 60 points. That means if Hayes nets 60, his production outdoes that of first line centers on many teams. That means that to have a two-way center that scores 60 does not put you within the league's bell curve, it puts you into a position that most teams would envy to have.
So the question is that if having a legit top line center and an elite level 2nd line center truly more of the same?
I guess my point remains the same. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. There are reasons to trade Hayes. The possible haul, the amount of money he will be demanding and the NMC/NTC. The team cannot afford him at $7+ with the movement restrictions. So if that is a reason to move him, then fine. That he can bring back assets that would enable us to utilize them to potentially get two top 15 picks is also a good reason. If you believe that his play will regress after his sign his next deal, that is valid as well as you do not want to be paying for something that he is not. If you believe that the Rangers will still not be a contender in 3-4 years, then again you have a case to trade him (though if you do not believe that they will be competitive in 4, then why not trade Krieder as well?).
But the contention is that it is same old, same old may not be valid. Steppan and Brassard were viewed as 1A & 1B. If Zbad is a legit top line center and Hayes is performing as an elite second line center, then how can it be that? Legit and elite beat out 1A & 1B. What Hayes is doing now (and has been for over a year now), is performing as not just a "good second line center", he is performing at a level that is much better than that. And that is without taking into account his defensive play.
Again, want to say that they cannot afford his askance, the movement restrictions and your belieif that in tow years, he is not going to be the player that he has been? Ok. I get it. Yeah, trade him and bring in more assets. But I am not sure that it is same old, nor do I support the theory that all he is is a 2nd/3rd line tweener right now. There is quite a sample size that says that he is much better than that.
Thirty One
Safe is safe.
- Dec 28, 2003
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If your evaluation methods tell you that Zibanejad and Hayes are in a different class than Stepan and Brassard from 2014, change them.
SA16
Sixstring
Less than that actually. There were 28 players who regularly played center that scored 60 points. I just ran through the list eliminating the guys listed at center that aren't really full time centers.
100+
McDavid
90+
Malkin MacKinnon Kopitar
80+
Crosby Stamkos Barzal Kuznetsov Tavares Kuznetsov
70+
Seguin Barkov Karlsson Staal Couturier Trocheck Backstrom Schenn
60+
Point Monahan Eichel Bergeron Larkin Matthews Getzlaf Couture ROR Scheifele
Rangers conceivably could walk away with 4 first rounders this summer. My guess is if they do get firsts for Hayes and Zucc AND Tampa wins the Cup which imo they will, I would bet good money that we use one or two of those picks to move up significantly. I would be surprised if gorton would make 4 picks
FoxysExpensiveNYDigs
Boo Nieves Truther
Methinks all the "tank hard this season and sign Panarin, instant playoffs!" posts are quite premature.
My point was that as I recall neither Stepan nor Brassard were considered legit top line centers. Ergo, if you happen to have a legit top line center and an elite level 2nd line center, you are ahead of the game.
For the record, I do not fall into "bash Stepan or Brassard" crowd. I liked them than thought they were good players for the Rangers. The comparison was more a discussion if this is truly "same old, same old".
SingnBluesOnBroadway
Retired
If they end up with two or three picks, I would bet that Gorton uses several to move up and have two top 15 picks.
Interesting numbers thanks for this.
Imo you need 2 guys on that list to win a Cup. I think we now have one in Zibanejad. We need another. Hayes isn’t going to be the other. Is Chytil one? I’m not completely sold on that but he might be. He’s a 30 pt pace player as a 19 year old. He could break thru. He could break thru on the wing ala nylander. But I think you need another stud center in the draft to be sure.
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Typically switching the best player on a team to a lesser player creates a lesser team.
Thirty One
Safe is safe.
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If Stepan wasn't a legit top line center, neither is Zibanejad.
Once again, just reflecting what seemed to be the mood of some folks around here.
Thirty One
Safe is safe.
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In a diverse group like NYR fans, there will be lots of different opinions. There are fans who think that Derek Stepan was a #1 center. There are fans that think Mika Zibanejad is a #1 center. I suspect there's a lot of overlap in those groups.
Off Sides
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Who are the top pair defenders during, say the first 3 years of any new Hayes contract?
I'd think at some point it kind of becomes more about what they are going to do with the whole roster than trying to just build a top 9F core who is pretty good but still not as good as their direct peers on several other teams.
On a related side note, I would not count on the salary cap going up as much as has been predicted by the NHL
I'd think at some point it kind of becomes more about what they are going to do with the whole roster than trying to just build a top 9F core who is pretty good but still not as good as their direct peers on several other teams.
On a related side note, I would not count on the salary cap going up as much as has been predicted by the NHL
EdJovanovski
#FreeRempe
I don’t like how people discount goalies as not being part of a team, a team plays bad and their goalie steals a game is treated as if it’s some third party who helped them out. It’s no different than a team playing bad and their star winger scoring a hat trick to make them win.
I'd say the odds of 3 out of 5 of those players being on the team in 3 years is fairly slim.
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