Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part XVI

[Oscar Lindberg]

I think people seem to be overlooking the fact that 60 point defensemen are extremely rare

and generally they are Norris candidates, who have done it multiple times

just don’t see DeAngelo as that guy. I think 45-50 points is much more reasonable

 

[Edge]

Do you have any examples of players you'd be comfortable moving DeAngelo for in a 1-for-1 swap? I kinda disagree with your takes on Tuch here and think that's a pretty fair deal.

I don't know, I'd have to some names thrown my way. I really haven't spent a ton of time giving thought to names I'd consider accepting for ADA, mainly because I don't really see it as a thing.

As for my take on Tuch, I think he's good.

I think he's inconsistent, I think he's trended the opposite way of ADA over the last 11 months and that's bled into this season.

I think ADA has more overall value than Tuch, even if he "only" scores 50 some odd points.

 

[True Blue]

In that case, it'd almost have to be Trouba if it happens. Fox's potential is ridiculously sky high for his age.

Whtaever the scenario is, I have a hard time seeing them trade Trouba. Actually, I cannot see that at all

 

[True Blue]

I mean considering only 5 times has a defenseman done that in the last decade and 4 of those times were either Karlsson or Burns, yes, he'd turn heads. Honestly, he'd be damn near untradeable.

That is why I said that there are two events that could possibly alter Gorton's plan. Or at least make him call an audible. DeAngelo doing that is one of them.

 

[Edge]

I think people seem to be overlooking the fact that 60 point defensemen are extremely rare

and generally they are Norris candidates, who have done it multiple times

just don’t see DeAngelo as that guy. I think 45-50 points is much more reasonable

Let's even say 50-55 points. Which is the pace he's scored at for 11 months now.

We still haven't had one since 2002 --- that's 17 years.

Even ADA a level below what I think he's capable of, is still a pretty rare find.

 

[True Blue]

What annoys me the most with this situation is that TDA prolly will fetch a pretty crappy return due to his reputation...

That is folly. First of all, he reputation issues had more to do with him maturity level rather than anything else. Second of all, if he puts up the points, the return will be fairly substantial.

 

[Rangerfan4life90]

Whtaever the scenario is, I have a hard time seeing them trade Trouba. Actually, I cannot see that at all

Same, but then, you figure something will have to give.

 

[RGY]

Even if the Rangers can’t buyout Staal and/or Smith after this season they will survive. They have one more year left each and then we can move on.

 

[Tawnos]

That is folly. First of all, he reputation issues had more to do with him maturity level rather than anything else. Second of all, if he puts up the points, the return will be fairly substantial.

Third, it didn't hurt Evander Kane's value.

 

[pld459666]

Regarding TDA for Tuch, even if it were a fair trade, to me it doesn't make sense to make that move when our more pressing need is center.

Prefer to hold TDA and package him with other assets for a center

 

[Tawnos]

Regarding TDA for Tuch, even if it were a fair trade, to me it doesn't make sense to make that move when our more pressing need is center.

Prefer to hold TDA and package him with other assets for a center

Is our more pressing need really center?

Actually, I'd prefer to wait it out until we know if that's true. If Chytil keeps this up and progresses a bit more, we have 1st and 2nd line centers.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

LOL, I took a different turn a looooong time ago.

There were a couple of moments, earlier in my career, where I had a chance to make that a reality. One was with the Rangers, for whom I was working, and the other opportunity came up around 2004 with the Sharks.

But I was fortunate to be doing very well in my career, and switching would've entailed a significant pay decrease. I passed both times and have never regretted it.

@Amazing Kreiderman and I have talked about this, but I wouldn't want this to be my job. I don't want to "have to" watch certain games, or fill out reports, or create consistent content like The Draft Analyst or anyone. It's a lot of work, and I respect the people who do it. But I feel like it would start to ruin it for me with me time.

This is where I stand at the moment. People have, as a joke or in a serious manner, brought up what it would be like for me to work for the Rangers. Doing what I love to do. The 2 reasons mentioned by @Edge are why I would say no.

1. My current allows me to travel and I get paid a nice salary. I worked 15 years to get to where I am right now, working my way up through different organizations and I just don't think the Rangers would match my salary.
2. Hockey is an outlet. A way to escape life and the daily routine of work. I want that to be separate. Just like I would not want to work together with my girlfriend. people talk about making your hobby your profession and what a dream it would be, but is it really? What are you going to do in your time off?

As honoured as I would be if they ask me, I would at least think about it but probably say "no" because of the 2 reasons mentioned above. I throroughly enjoy my job, and I enjoy traveling for hockey even more. 4 weeks ago I was in Nashville with my girlfriend watching the Rangers. The following weekend I traveled to Helsinki for the weekend and saw the u20 tournament. It was a blast, I got to talk to Bobrov and Clark again, caught up with Lundkvist's dad and grandpa, and was interviewed for a Finnish TV show. My weekend would look completely different if I was doing what Bobrov/Clark is doing. It's work. There's no "relaxing". No beer while watching the game. No casual conversation with the German guy sitting next to me who recognized me and followed me on Twitter for 2 years. It would be "just another day at the office".

If I was 22, sure! The job would pay well, I wouldn't be giving up anything of importance and I would value being part of the New York Rangers organization much more than I do now that I am 35.

 

[Kovalev27]

He’s at least a 50 plus pt right shot dman. Please let’s not make this zubov 2.0 they don’t grow on trees.

and it wouldn’t be strange if he did it. Go look at his numbers in juniors. They were flat out ridiculous. This is who he’s become at the NHL level now.

 

[Ola]

I think people seem to be overlooking the fact that 60 point defensemen are extremely rare

and generally they are Norris candidates, who have done it multiple times

just don’t see DeAngelo as that guy. I think 45-50 points is much more reasonable

Of course, usage has a huge impact, and if 60 pts Ds are rare — it’s unheard of for Ds to get 60 pts with 2nd-3rd string PP time.

More than 50 can’t be likely for TDA. I recon that is what the expected pts totals say.

 

[JimmyG89]

Not sure where this should go, but JD is going to be on the radio this evening.

 

[Ola]

Third, it didn't hurt Evander Kane's value.

Evander Kane didn’t perform either before his contract year, but his trade value wasn’t high. He just returned a 2nd that became a 1st if he resigned, right?

 

[Tawnos]

Evander Kane didn’t perform either before his contract year, but his trade value wasn’t high. He just returned a 2nd that became a 1st if he resigned, right?

I was thinking more about the first trade than the rental trade.

 

[Brooklyn Rangers Fan]

Really interesting last couple of pages. This is the sort of stuff that keeps me coming back to HFNYR despite the occasional craziness.

I agree that there's no need to be looking at trading ADA now. But as I've said before, I do think *eventually* he'll be the one to go on the right side. And at such a time, Alex Tuch is exactly the kind of guy I'd target. And like @TheDirtyH, I think it'd be a good, fair hockey trade based on what we know now.

I get the arguments in favor of DeAngelo deserving more value. But here's why I think it's pretty darn close to fair:

1) Sure, DeAngelo's dynamic, and if I'm in a regular season game heading to OT, I want him on the ice, no question. But a PO game 7, 5v5...? I can see him just as easily being the guy throwing his head back and cursing in front of the net as I can being the guy at the center of the celebratory scrum in the corner.

2) Tuch brings his own version of dynamism: similar to what Kreider brings when he's on. That's not as obvious as a PMD racing up from the backend with the puck on his stick, but can be just as impactful. And since Kreider is almost assuredly leaving, it's a dynamic that is likely to be extremely lacking in this organization going forward; as opposed to offensively capable D (on both sides), where we seem to have a surplus.

3) Tuch is signed to an EXCELLENT 7 x $4.75MM contract. And whether it takes 1, 2, or 3 different deals, I'm guessing Tony's going to eat up a lot more of your cap over the next 7 years...

Obviously, all of this is subject to change as we watch both players develop, but if for some reason I had to make a deal now, I think this would make a lot of sense.

 

[Kendo]

Can we even buyout any more players under the current CBA?! Are we stuck with MS and BS?

https://thehockeywriters.com/nhl-cba-annual-amnesty-buyouts/
Finally, so big market teams don’t take advantage of this feature, teams may only buy out a maximum of 10 percent of the next year’s cap worth of salaries. If these buyouts were implemented prior to the 2018-19 NHL season, teams could only have $7.95 million on the books for amnesty buyouts.

That article was entirely hypothetical. LOL

For the upcoming CBA talks, here’s an addition to consider: annual amnesty buyouts.

 

[Edge]

Of course, usage has a huge impact, and if 60 pts Ds are rare — it’s unheard of for Ds to get 60 pts with 2nd-3rd string PP time.

More than 50 can’t be likely for TDA. I recon that is what the expected pts totals say.

Well, while 60 is the benchmark that is often pointed to, even 50ish hasn’t happened for us since some of our prospects were in diapers. So I don’t think anyone should dismiss 50 as if it were a regular occurrence.

Beyond that, I’m not entirely sure ADA is the finished product. I think there’s still some runway there. So even if he’s a 50 point defenseman this year, I’m not convinced those numbers don’t get a bump as he and his teammates around him mature.

All of this sounds like I don’t appreciate a guy like Tuch. I do.

But if I am trading a defenseman capable of scoring 50 points, I feel like I better be getting back a forward capable of more points — not the same or less.

 

[wafflepadsave]

Just as a point of reference:

In his last 51 games, going back to January of last season, ADA has 7 goals and 35 points, in 51 games. So even if the goal totals fall-off, that's still closing in on a 60 point pace --- and he's getting better over that span.

But I will say that I still think we tend to hedge our bets on ADA's full offensive capabilities. This is a kid who does things offensively that very few defenseman can do. I don't know if we fully appreciate that.

Just think if we add a couple of finishers.

 

[Maximus]

Regarding TDA for Tuch, even if it were a fair trade, to me it doesn't make sense to make that move when our more pressing need is center.

Prefer to hold TDA and package him with other assets for a center

Agreed...not a fair trade at all.

Tuch isn't enough for DeAngelo anways.

If you have a 50+ point defenseman like DeAngelo is on pace for and who don't grow on trees, that is the equivalent in my view of a 65-70+ point forward. DeAngelo hasn't done it tho and so we may be valuing him higher than other teams would be even with his potential.

Tuch tho he has some nice attributes doesn't come close to checking enough boxes for me to want to deal DeAngelo...I'd pass pretty strongly on that kind of deal and watch DeAngelo emerge for us and we hopefully sign him after the year as I'd rather us do that than deal him if possible.

 

[Oscar Lindberg]

I'm personally not trading DeAngelo unless it's a center coming back who will be a core piece for this team for the next 5-7 years. Something similar to the Jones for Johansen trade

And even then it would depend on the progress of the Lundkvist and Keane

 

[NYRFANMANI]

That article was entirely hypothetical. LOL

So we can buy out as many contracts as we want, technically?

 

[GAGLine]

So we can buy out as many contracts as we want, technically?

The only limitation is on buyouts outside the regular period. In other words, buyouts that are done after arbitration, like Shatty was. Teams are only allowed 3 of those during the life of the current CBA. That was our 1st. During the regular period, we can buy out as many players as we want.