Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part XVI

[Kovalev27]

Perhaps he or someone else shifts to the wing. Perhaps not. How long is Strome for this organization? What if Andersson comes back from this AHL stint and plays markedly better than Howden?

It's too early in this process to be making a trade like that.

lot of what ifs there but if he’s now shifting to wing his upside is still not that of puljujarvi.

he’s not going to magically turn into a dynamic player because he went to the A if he never had the talent in him to be so in the first place like Chytil.

even without Strome there are 3 centers clearly ahead of him and my guess is after this draft there will be more.

This shouldn’t be news but not every prospect even good ones are going to play for your team. You need to move them from a position of strength to fill other positions you are weak in. To say you can’t ever trade a guy under 23 ever is not realistic or the way pro sports work. Especially when you’re trading one for another guy under 23. I’m not proposing moving andersson for a 30 year old here.

 

[Tawnos]

lot of what ifs there but if he’s now shifting to wing his upside is still not that of puljujarvi.

he’s not going to magically turn into a dynamic player because he went to the A.

even without Strome there are 3 centers clearly ahead of him and my guess is after this draft there will be more.

This shouldn’t be news but not every prospect even good ones are going to play for your team. You need to move them from a position of strength to fill other positions you are weak in. To say you can’t ever trade a guy under 23 ever is not realistic or the way pro sports work. Especially when you’re trading one for another guy under 23. I’m not proposing moving andersson for a 30 year old here.

I was putting those what-ifs out there to illustrate why you don't do this. There are plenty of others. There are just as many what-ifs involving Puljujarvi. Puljujarvi isn't going to magically turn into a good player in NA just because he's performing in Finland.

It's not news and nowhere did I suggest that will be the case. Rebuilding teams shouldn't be doing it, but teams in other situations should be depending on the deal. What I am suggesting is we don't know that center is a position of strength to be using fill positions we don't yet know if we're really weak in. Until we do, I'm not moving out one guy that age for another.

 

[Edge]

The comparisons are pretty spot on. I mean the first time I saw him play I thought I was watching Kreider again. Not many 6'3"-6'4" wingers who can fly down the ice like the two of them. He's adept in front of the net. And he plays an honest game, understanding his role and how best to create time and space for his teammates and chaos in the attacking zone and the neutral zone.

Where I'm coming from is that Alex Tuch is already a 20 goal 50 point winger. He has plenty of room to grow and who's to say his absolute peak isn't closer to 35-75? ADA's best season has him at 10-40 prorated. So maybe his absolute peak is 20-60 but it seems really optimistic to just call him that. Like, it feels like you're comparing best case scenario for ADA to a flatlining Tuch. They have nearly identical gp, ADA's actually older by six months or so, and Tuch is the only one with a full season.

As far as dynamic goes or game 7 scenarios, Tuch had 6 goals and 10 points as a 21-yo rookie in 20 games. He's absolutely got game-breaking potential with his ability to carve teams between the blue lines and his presence and ability in the crease.

Anyway, fair to say we disagree.

I don't think we're miles apart. The key difference is that I'd want Tuch+.

 

[Kovalev27]

I mean you definitely did multiple times. I said you can’t keep every 23 year old and you said sure you can.

but if your opinion isn’t to move anyone at this time that’s fine I guess but if we can move a guy that doesn’t seem to fit the puzzle for a guy that might and they’re both young kids you do it imo.

 

[True Blue]

The trade that makes sense is Lias Andersson for Jesse Puljujarvi. Change of scenery deal for two underachieving players.

Andersson is not under achieving. Pulujarvi is not even in North American and has not shown that he can even produce at an AHL level. No thank you .

 

[True Blue]

For J.P I'd assume it will take Fast and a 2nd . I'd do it as I think he would be a better fit in the role Fast is currently occupying

No offense, this is awful.

 

[TheDirtyH]

I'm really curious now. If you're making a 1 for 1 trade with DeAngelo as the piece who is the player coming back value-wise?

Obviously the sentiment is don't trade Tony, I get it, but I'm just surprised to see Tuch viewed as a player not worthy of that kind of move.

 

[Kovalev27]

Andersson is not under achieving. Pulujarvi is not even in North American and has not shown that he can even produce at an AHL level. No thank you .

andersson isn’t underachieving? Lol. Ok.

JP has 40 pts in 54 games at the AHL level So that wasn’t true now was it.


and he’s already shown glimpses of what he can do at the nhl level. Lias hasnt. Sorry but he hasn’t.

One underachieving player for another. See if a shakeup helps them both.

 

[True Blue]

Hand up, I don't think DeAngelo will hit 60 points at any point in his career

I think that the chances of him hitting it are greater than the chances of him not.

There are two potentially game changing things for this franchise. ADA hitting the 20 goal, 60 point total and Lemieux becoming a 20 goal, 45 point players. Both will have ramifications as to how the future is approached. I will say that if per chance that DeAngelo hits that mark this year, that may well force Gorton's hand as far as who is kept for next year (be they forwards or defensemen) and what kind of a contract DeAngelo is getting (the several year bridge deals) or a serious 5-6 year commitment.

As with everything, just have to see how it all unfolds this year.

 

[True Blue]

and he’s already shown glimpses of what he can do at the nhl level. Lias hasnt. Sorry but he hasn’t.

One underachieving player for another. See if a shakeup helps them both.

No, Andersson is not underachieving. Playing with Smith and Haley is not going to lead to many offensive items being put on the board. Pulujarvi has shown exactly zip. Want to make the trade, fine. But Edmonton has to add.

 

[True Blue]

I'm really curious now. If you're making a 1 for 1 trade with DeAngelo as the piece who is the player coming back value-wise?

Probably a forward with similar upside and trajectory.

 

[TheDirtyH]

Probably a forward with similar upside and trajectory.

LOL obv I thought Tuch fit that description. Who are you thinking of?

 

[NYR Viper]

I agree with @Edge (not a surprise), in order to trade a player as dynamic as ADA, I'd expect a similarly dynamic young player back at a premium position. Wing is not a premium position. If Tuch was the guy, I'd expect an add as it's a RD for a wing AND another add as ADA will very likely out-produce Tuch as a defenseman this year.

If the offer was the LV 1st '20 + Tuch then I would consider it, depending on where the pick is in the first round (assuming the trade is made in the off-season).

 

[True Blue]

LOL obv I thought Tuch fit that description. Who are you thinking of?

Yeah, was trying to make a joke. Clearly stuff gets lost in print.

Honestly, I would need to think on it. But here is the thing, I would not trade a young 20 goal, 60 point defenseman for a young 20 goal, 50 point forward. The former is a much more rare commodity. Especially at RD.

Would look for a package for a Kyle Connor possibly. Again, this is providing that DeAngelo hits the numbers we are talking about. If he gets to them, my bet is that he would turn some heads.

 

[duhmetreE]

LOL obv I thought Tuch fit that description. Who are you thinking of?

From Frost all the way to Turcotte.

 

[SA16]

Underrating Tuch like ridiculous. He just scored 52 points at age 22 in a large in a 2nd line/PP2 role and has been hurt most of this year. DeAngelo is definitely not likely to score 20 goals in a season. A defenseman has only scored 20 goals 8 times in the last 5 seasons. and 4 of those 8 were Burns/OEL. A reasonable expectation for DeAngelos goal totals is going to be in the 12-15 range per year.

Like if we think DeAngelo can be a 20/60 player then he clearly is not the guy to trade and we should trade Trouba (before the NMC kicks in) or Fox instead. If he does that you're literally talking about a top 3 offensive defenseman in the league. Those are better numbers than Weber, Subban, Josi have ever put up.

 

[TheDirtyH]

Yeah, was trying to make a joke. Clearly stuff gets lost in print.

Honestly, I would need to think on it. But here is the thing, I would not trade a young 20 goal, 60 point defenseman for a young 20 goal, 50 point forward. The former is a much more rare commodity. Especially at RD.

Would look for a package for a Kyle Connor possibly. Again, this is providing that DeAngelo hits the numbers we are talking about. If he gets to them, my bet is that he would turn some heads.

I mean considering only 5 times has a defenseman done that in the last decade and 4 of those times were either Karlsson or Burns, yes, he'd turn heads. Honestly, he'd be damn near untradeable.

 

[wafflepadsave]

You know it's funny, I've seen Kreider come up a few times, and I'm seeing the comparisons --- both for positive, and frankly, not so positive reasons.

At the end of the day, I have to ask myself, which type of player is harder to find: a 20/50 type forward, or a 20/60 type RHD? So in that regard it's ADA.

Then I have to ask myself, who do I think is more dynamic, Tuch or ADA? I find ADA to be the more dynamic player --- he's a tone setter.

It's game 7 and we're heading to OT. Who do I want on the ice to try and win me the game? Gotta go with ADA there.

So in my mind, I start tallying it up, and I just don't think there's enough there for me to make that deal straight up.

So why aren’t you working with gorton? If you need some references, we can help.

 

[Rangerfan4life90]

Underrating Tuch like ridiculous. He just scored 52 points at age 22 in a large in a 2nd line/PP2 role and has been hurt most of this year. DeAngelo is definitely not likely to score 20 goals in a season. A defenseman has only scored 20 goals 8 times in the last 5 seasons. and 4 of those 8 were Burns/OEL. A reasonable expectation for DeAngelos goal totals is going to be in the 12-15 range per year.

Like if we think DeAngelo can be a 20/60 player then he clearly is not the guy to trade and we should trade Trouba (before the NMC kicks in) or Fox instead. If he does that you're literally talking about a top 3 offensive defenseman in the league. Those are better numbers than Weber, Subban, Josi have ever put up.

In that case, it'd almost have to be Trouba if it happens. Fox's potential is ridiculously sky high for his age.

 

[Edge]

So why aren’t you working with gorton? If you need some references, we can help.

LOL, I took a different turn a looooong time ago.

There were a couple of moments, earlier in my career, where I had a chance to make that a reality. One was with the Rangers, for whom I was working, and the other opportunity came up around 2004 with the Sharks.

But I was fortunate to be doing very well in my career, and switching would've entailed a significant pay decrease. I passed both times and have never regretted it.

@Amazing Kreiderman and I have talked about this, but I wouldn't want this to be my job. I don't want to "have to" watch certain games, or fill out reports, or create consistent content like The Draft Analyst or anyone. It's a lot of work, and I respect the people who do it. But I feel like it would start to ruin it for me with me time.

 

[NYRFANMANI]

Umm ... guys. I was looking at buying out Smith in addition to Staal and I stumbled upon something that needs clarification.

Apparently there is a maximum amount that can be bought out? Like, we're already at 7.5m for next year (G, Spoon, Shatty). If the following quote applies, and the max. cap hit is like 85 million, we have one million in buyout cap?

All I found is this from late 2018 and it's talking about "amnesty buyouts", anyhow:

Finally, so big market teams don’t take advantage of this feature, teams may only buy out a maximum of 10 percent of the next year’s cap worth of salaries. If these buyouts were implemented prior to the 2018-19 NHL season, teams could only have $7.95 million on the books for amnesty buyouts.

https://thehockeywriters.com/nhl-cba-annual-amnesty-buyouts/

Can we even buyout any more players under the current CBA?! Are we stuck with MS and BS?

 

[Ola]

I'm really curious now. If you're making a 1 for 1 trade with DeAngelo as the piece who is the player coming back value-wise?

Obviously the sentiment is don't trade Tony, I get it, but I'm just surprised to see Tuch viewed as a player not worthy of that kind of move.

What annoys me the most with this situation is that TDA prolly will fetch a pretty crappy return due to his reputation...

 

[kovazub94]

First, a bit of context. I think a part of the current issues on putting together defensive pairs, even with Staal out of the lineup, is that we don’t have an offensive defenseman on the left (of Fox’s and ADA’s ilk) to complement Trouba. Yeah we have Miller in the prospect pool but as many rightfully noted - you can’t count on a prospect development that’s so far removed and in Miller’s case we are probably talking at least 2.5 years from now just to step into a regular NHL role.

So going back to ADA discussion, first there’s no way I’d be willing to move a 60 point RD if I can keep him cap wise even to the point of trying some of our RD on the left, but if this is not possible I’d be looking first for a similarly offensive lefty defenseman to ready to play on the first pair right now.

 

[Mac n Gs]

I don't think we're miles apart. The key difference is that I'd want Tuch+.

Do you have any examples of players you'd be comfortable moving DeAngelo for in a 1-for-1 swap? I kinda disagree with your takes on Tuch here and think that's a pretty fair deal.

 

[Edge]

Just as a point of reference:

In his last 51 games, going back to January of last season, ADA has 7 goals and 35 points, in 51 games. So even if the goal totals fall-off, that's still closing in on a 60 point pace --- and he's getting better over that span.

But I will say that I still think we tend to hedge our bets on ADA's full offensive capabilities. This is a kid who does things offensively that very few defenseman can do. I don't know if we fully appreciate that.