Ghost of jas
Unsatisfied
Really? Stepan/Brassard? Frankly, I’ll take both Stepan and Brassard over Hayes. Even Richards put up 60+ points in his first year here.
Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part XV
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Really? Stepan/Brassard? Frankly, I’ll take both Stepan and Brassard over Hayes. Even Richards put up 60+ points in his first year here.
Rongomania
I use my Kakko jersey as pajamas now.
I disagree. I believe Lias can achieve Hayes numbers. He’s getting the Chytil treatment right now, so time will tell on that one.
Ghost of jas
Unsatisfied
Edge
Kris King's Ghost
Personally, I picked them for the 4-6 range. Ultimately, I think that's where they'll finish (hate to burst some bubbles on that one).
But, I also think it's hard to account for how the young talent would perform and that's a big part of what is driving this team right now --- the ADAs, the Howdens, etc.
Right now I see a team that is overachieving. Not that its a bad thing, or anything we should try to diminish. But I do see a team that has a lot of shaky components that are being covered with some good bounces and fortuitous timing. Can that continue? Sure. But I don't know if I'd really count on that. My gut tells me this is a team that is going to stumble pretty hard at some point. But, for now, it's nice to see the young talent taking an active role and succeeding.
As for the selloff, the reality is that we moved two core pieces, and two support pieces.
I also think you can make an argument that maybe only one of them would've had a significant impact on this year's roster. So while as acquired a lot of pieces, I think it's a bit of an illusion that we had a massive sell-off.
That's why I think moving guys like Zucc and Hayes is going to be important to the long-term agenda. We still need a significant amount of resources. My biggest concern is that right now people think we're further ahead than we are. We're in a good place for where we are in the process, but we're still quite a bit away from being in the final stretch.
But that's kind of the risk with a process like this. If we stumble out of the gate, people think we've screwed up, the team is doomed, the front office is stupid, we don't have good prospects, we can't identify talent, etc. etc. etc.
If we achieve some early success, people want to hang on to players, they want to go for it, we're further along than we thought, we over-project kids, we gloss over the work that needs to done, etc. etc. etc.
Like most things, the truth is probably in the middle and people get uncomfortable with the middle. It's not clear-cut, it's not neat, it's not enough to fantasize about one way or the other, and it requires a considerable amount of thought and risk when making decisions.
So, for me, not much is really different than it was 9 months ago, 6 months ago, or 6 weeks ago. It's just part of the cycle --- and this part happens to be a little more enjoyable. But there will be some rough waters ahead, unfortunately.
- Jan 18, 2012
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The way I see it, If we traded Hayes this year, we get something back like Nash-value.
If we sign him, we get something back like McDonagh-value in a couple years.
or to put it this way,
I believe trading Hayes this year, has a fractional impact on the long term future and a negative in the immediate.
Signing and possibly trading Hayes in a couple years, should have a greater impact on the future as well as a good outcome in the immediate
If we sign him, we get something back like McDonagh-value in a couple years.
or to put it this way,
I believe trading Hayes this year, has a fractional impact on the long term future and a negative in the immediate.
Signing and possibly trading Hayes in a couple years, should have a greater impact on the future as well as a good outcome in the immediate
BringBackLibertys
Registered User
@Edge I actually meant THIS year, as in, This TDL we move one or two core pieces (at least), and then we go right in the pooper until the end of the year, while still be enjoyable to watch and growing our youth, giving us a (I would guess) 5-9 First round pick. I am not high on this team doing great this year, I am much more expecting us to finish in the bottom, which I signed up for when they sent out the letter last year.
Ghost of jas
Unsatisfied
We’re seeing that in the discussion we’re having really gut now. The Rangers are only five points of the Pens, who are last in the conference, and have played three less games. There are a lot of things to be happy about, but this is still a team likely to finish bottom five.
- Jan 18, 2012
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Zibs > Brassard
Hayes > Stepan
I never was a fan of Stepan; he was solid in the regular season but a fraction of himself in the playoffs.
Zibs - Hayes - Howden would be the best top9 centers we've had IMO.
The problem now is the defense. I don't know of some kid can come in and shine like a McAvoy but this is where Gorton will need to earn his paycheck
BringBackLibertys
Registered User
Whaaaa????
I think your memory is not as happy about the deep runs as mine. We called him BrassGod for a reason, he was money in the playoffs. I also remember Stepan netting one of our most important OT goals of the last 10 years of playoffs.....I mean, Zibs is good, but has proven nothing in the playoffs (yet), and Hayes is at best equal to Stepan, but in my mind he is not there until he proves it year after year in the playoffs shutting down elite teams for 7 game series while also putting up timely points.
Ghost of jas
Unsatisfied
You are severely underrating Stepan and overrating Hayes. If your gripe with Stepan is playoff production, I’ve got news for you...Hayes is worse. Stepan produced like a lower tier 1st line center. Hayes is only now starting to produce like a lower tier 2nd line center.
Edge
Kris King's Ghost
I think they'll still move Hayes and Zucc, though I think they'd prefer prospects for the former.
I think the team will still be enjoyable to watch when things come together, and frustrating when they don't. I think even a top 5 finish will still result in in roughly 35 wins on the season. That's important to keep in mind because I think we tend to envision a "bad" team finishing with significantly less wins than that.
- Jan 18, 2012
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Brass was our best player in the playoffs. Zibs was also our best player 2 years ago in spite of a 'failing team'
when we're comparing both I feel it's safe to say Zibs > Brass
Ghost of jas
Unsatisfied
Actually, Zibanejad was the Rangers ‘ best forward in the last playoff run. Hayes has a long way to go to be as good as Stepan was for the Rangers. Stepan remains criminally underrated by this fanbase.
BringBackLibertys
Registered User
14-15 Brass playoffs : 19GP, 16 Pts, 9 goals.
16-17 Zib playoffs: 12GP, 9 pts, 2 goals.
Agree to disagree. Brass was better comparing the two in stats, and in the eye test in my mind. Now if you mean comparing them TODAY, I get it, but if you mean best year to best year...
BringBackLibertys
Registered User
I agree he was underrated, I thought he was always a great leader on this team, did all the dirty unsung work, chipped in with almost 1C points, and got a contract he deserved. Honestly I still think he is worth his money (and if you look at the cap it is not really a bad contract for what he did/does). I don't think he fits on our current team, but he is still a really darn good center.
- Jan 18, 2012
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Zibs was all over the place and if I remember correctly was somewhat snakebit.
BringBackLibertys
Registered User
Like I said agree to disagree, you say snakebit, I say he wasn't scoring. Brass was scoring. They were both all over the place as you put it. I am not saying Zib was bad, in my mind Brass was better.
KingDeathMetal
Registered User
Heck, you can't EVEN compete for the cup with a superstar C alone and a Hayes as your 2C. Multiple teams now have generational talents as their 1C with fringe-generational talents as 2C. See: Penguins, Oilers, Leafs. Then you have Tampa, Nashville, and Winnipeg with two high-end 1Cs down the middle and absolutely crazy stacked on D and wings. Those are basically your routes to the Cup now.
Hayes can be a 3C on a contending team, but then we face Toronto and he's matchup with freaking Nazem Kadri. This league is insane right now with C talent.
If Chytil, Lias, and Howden continue to develop, and let's say Chytil is a clear 1C, and Howden/Lias are fringe 2Cs, then we're in a scenario where we have to trade Hayes and Zibby at some point. Then if we draft Jack Hughes or another 1C next year, one of Howden/Lias might have to go or move to wing or 4C.
Machinehead
Fox Mafia Consigliere
Stepan was great for us but I think we got out of that at the right time.
There is a LOOOOONNNNGGG way to go to be able to even get comfortable in making such projections. An done can certainly not bank on them any more than one can bank on drafting Hughes.
- Jan 18, 2012
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Hayes, this year, is better than Stepan IMO. I'd be more confident with Hayes going into the playoffs than Stepan.
IF ( i know, if's are terrible ) Hayes had the same PP1 time Stepan has had, he'd blow by him in statistical metrics
Can Hayes improve even further or even maintain this level? We'll see. Stepan has peaked/plateaued and could never take over a game like Hayes has shown.
Hayes dominates Even-Strength
BringBackLibertys
Registered User
I agree that he doesn't fit on this team anymore, but you realize he was just as good last year (on a much worse team) as he was in his last year with us right? I mean basically identical output. He is still a really good player.
This plan is not really based in reality, unfortunately. Hayes is an UFA and it's almost guaranteed his deal would come with a no-movement assurance. So while it's nice to say lets back up the Brinks truck for Hayes and see where we're at in a year or two, the more likely scenario is you're stuck with the guy for the next 5-6+ years at $6M+ per or you collect what you can on him before the trade deadline in terms of value.
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