Speculation: Roster Building Thread : Part XV (Light em up!)

[McRanger92]

Or it’s just further proof that Pronman is an asshat who has no business having a platform.

Pronman has been wrong constantly since his ESPN days.

 

[TGWL]

I was looking for Gabe. I thought Corey forgot about him. Scroll. Scroll. #126? Edstrom has been traded a million times and he is ranked #50.

I think the ranking of Othmann is because many believe Othmann is NHL ready and should be on the roster. (Those people have not watched him on the NHL roster). But yeah, Gabe is listed way down.

 

[kovazub94]

Borgen hits more but Kevin Klein made more of an impact on the scoresheet. Two 26 point seasons. Borgen has two similar seasons with Seattle but we haven't seen that impact here yet. It's an interesting comparison. Klein always felt way tougher. More grit, motor, and snarl. Borgen is more mobile which suits today's NHL better. Interesting comparison. Echoing earlier post, low AAV for 5-6 years sounds like a win. Low AAV gives us the flexibility to move him. Although, you'd think the same was true for Nemeth (even though he was clearly WAAAY worse of a player WTH where they thinking they weren't) and he somehow cost us TWO 2nd picks to unload.

This is fair (KK was more than marginally better player Borgen). My point was for folks who dismiss the idea that a capable 3rd pair D is not easy to find). Last season on the left side for the first time we had Gus who was pretty adequate but in the end he had difficulty a) maintaining his top level of play for the whole season and it slipped even lower from his average the further Rangers made it in the playoffs). It seems that Drury was able to find two solid 3rd pair guys and if the price is right... "you can never have too many defensemen".

 

[noncents]

Or it’s just further proof that Pronman is an asshat who has no business having a platform.

yeah no doubt he's cooked but it's still so outrageous that you have to love it. highest ntdp scoring season of all time and lower than both nelson and eiserman. high minded stuff.

 

[kovazub94]

Damn, PPG player and almost 24 minutes of ice time a game? Makes you wonder why he’s coming back, clearly SKA loved him on their team, maybe he does have some interest from an NHL team. Or it’s family personal reasons.

SKA StP has been shit this season - really slipped compared to years passed. And let's use correct not-misleading lingo: DeAngelo's contract has been terminated by the team guess for what? Same old pattern - conflict within organization and shitty defense on the ice.

 

[SA16]

SKA StP has been shit this season - really slipped compared to years passed. DeAngelo's contract has been terminated by the team guess for what? Same old pattern - conflict within organization and shitty defense on the ice.

We don't need to guess for what. They said it was for family reasons. So, absolutely nothing to do with defense on the ice or conflict in the organization.

 

[LokiDog]

I think you're arguing semantics a bit here. Borgen is a quality NHL d-man who brings things this team needs. If he is signed to the contract many are predicting him to get, ~$3.5m, that is #5 cap hit allocation. Especially as the cap increases. Whether he is playing with Miller due to playing styles or because they have chemistry isn't the point, the team needs 6 quality NHL d-men. He's playing 18:37 on average with the Rangers right now.

If you go down your list and compare the ~$3.5m that Borgen is projected to get to what many of the players above are making you will quickly realize that he won't be paid close to the stratosphere that most of those guys above are making (or will be making shortly).

The issue with Trouba was he couldn't skate anymore and was making $8m. If you were to tell me that Borgen would come in and replace the physical play of Trouba and be able to skate well while making $3.5m, I'd sign up for that all day.

Just as a point of reference, Niko Mikkola averaged over 20 minutes of ice time per game for the Panthers both last year and this year. Niko Mikkola. I realize that's not "ideal" but building a defense by committee isn't the worst idea in the world.

None of this is wrong but none of it changes what Borgen is. Colin Blackwell and Jesper Fast weren’t 1st liners because they played with Panarin. They were still bottom six caliber players. Roster balancing isn’t the same thing as talking about classifying players.

Borgen is also playing the role he’s currently in partially because we have no options. Fox carries Lindgren’s corpse around. At his absolute peak, people may have thought Lindgren was a #3D but he played 1st pair almost exclusively, because he complemented Fox. It didn’t make Lindgren a top pairing defender. Miller is next on the LD depth chart. Schneider and Miller don’t work well together and are both very young. Vaakanainen can’t be given 18+ minutes per night because he’s barely an NHL regular (never has been, likely won’t ever be again as soon as we add another LHD) so the Miller pairing is the defacto second pair. It doesn’t magically make Borgen into a 3-4 D man.

Your point about Trouba I basically said in one of my posts; he’s appropriately priced Trouba. Of course he’ll be viewed more favorably when he makes peanuts and had no expectations walking in the door. That doesn’t make him genuinely better. We can argue about it, but it’s splitting hairs. He’s not substantially better. Trouba is playing 22+ minutes for the Ducks on their top pair and they’re supposed to be a lottery team but they’re also like 9-9 since the trade.

That doesn’t make Trouba a top pairing defender either. It’s like the conversation about how many true 1Cs are in the league and whether Draisaitl or Malkin are 2Cs because of the depth chart, or 1Cs due to the merit of their own talent. They’re obviously 1Cs. I’ve said in every single post about Borgen that I would be happy keeping him as a bottom pair defender. I’ve said that I don’t want him playing second pairing long term on my team if I want my team to be competitive. I still stand by that. I mean, if Borgen is clearly better than Schneider and we’re waiting for Mancini, why are fans so opposed to sending Schneider to Vancouver? He got replaced by the Borg, no? Or Schneider is clearly the preferable player between the two, no one alive would trade Schneider for Borgen and the only reason Borgen is getting the minutes he is, is our currently awful D construction.

Again, I don’t feel that I’ve slighted or insulted Borgen once. All I’ve said is that he is what he is. Why have other D men his age played triple the NHL games as him and averaged 3+ more minutes of ice time than him, yet we have Rangers fans saying Borgen is better now, based on about 7-8 good games?

Why is it so bad to say he’s a simple, meat and potatoes bottom pairing guy who is doing his job well right now, but I wouldn’t want to, nor advise, pencil him into a long term second pairing role. Kulikov has made a long career being exactly what Borgen is. What’s wrong with that? Rangers fans turn everything into a shiny new toy. He’s been here 11 games and been solid for about 8 of them. There’s 38 or whatever games left. He’s bound to have a few stinkers.

When he’s on the ice for 3 goals against one night and makes a bad turnover, the boards will turn on him and everyone will be saying everything I said in this thread, except they will be saying it with anger and vitriol. I’m saying it calmly and matter of factly, and saying there’s nothing wrong with it. I’m saying don’t ascribe some greater ceiling or value to the guy based off of a decent stretch of hockey during one of our worst ever. Accept that Borgen is already who he is at this stage of his career, has limitations, and should ideally be in the 5/6 spot on your D core. Instead everyone will jump on me for saying it today and in two weeks we’ll get the “great job Drury, trading 2OA for this bum” posts. This is inevitable. I’m just telling people to slow their roll and temper their expectations before you pencil him as a long term second pairing player.

 

[kovazub94]

Or it’s just further proof that Pronman is an asshat who has no business having a platform.

Has he always had a SIGNIFICANT bias TOWARD players that are closer in their stage of development to becoming NHLers even if their expected levels were significantly lower than prospects who were further away?

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

yeah no doubt he's cooked but it's still so outrageous that you have to love it. highest ntdp scoring season of all time and lower than both nelson and eiserman. high minded stuff.

I didn’t look at the list but if Danny Nelson is higher than him he should just quit his job.

 

[kovazub94]

We don't need to guess for what. They said it was for family reasons. So, absolutely nothing to do with defense on the ice or conflict in the organization.

Yeah sure. See below - this site translates into English or I can give you my translation if you want.

P.S. I followed ADA career in the K and his defenses lapses were points of discussion throughout the whole season.

СКА расторг контракт с Деанджело – после конфликта с помощником Ротенберга и постоянных ошибок

Объяснили семейными обстоятельствами.

www.sports.ru

 

[NYR Viper]

None of this is wrong but none of it changes what Borgen is. Colin Blackwell and Jesper Fast weren’t 1st liners because they played with Panarin. They were still bottom six caliber players. Roster balancing isn’t the same thing as talking about classifying players.

Borgen is also playing the role he’s currently in partially because we have no options. Fox carries Lindgren’s corpse around. At his absolute peak, people may have thought Lindgren was a #3D but he played 1st pair almost exclusively, because he complemented Fox. It didn’t make Lindgren a top pairing defender. Miller is next on the LD depth chart. Schneider and Miller don’t work well together and are both very young. Vaakanainen can’t be given 18+ minutes per night because he’s barely an NHL regular (never has been, likely won’t ever be again as soon as we add another LHD) so the Miller pairing is the defacto second pair. It doesn’t magically make Borgen into a 3-4 D man.

Your point about Trouba I basically said in one of my posts; he’s appropriately priced Trouba. Of course he’ll be viewed more favorably when he makes peanuts and had no expectations walking in the door. That doesn’t make him genuinely better. We can argue about it, but it’s splitting hairs. He’s not substantially better. Trouba is playing 22+ minutes for the Ducks on their top pair and they’re supposed to be a lottery team but they’re also like 9-9 since the trade.

That doesn’t make Trouba a top pairing defender either. It’s like the conversation about how many true 1Cs are in the league and whether Draisaitl or Malkin are 2Cs because of the depth chart, or 1Cs due to the merit of their own talent. They’re obviously 1Cs. I’ve said in every single post about Borgen that I would be happy keeping him as a bottom pair defender. I’ve said that I don’t want him playing second pairing long term on my team if I want my team to be competitive. I still stand by that. I mean, if Borgen is clearly better than Schneider and we’re waiting for Mancini, why are fans so opposed to sending Schneider to Vancouver? He got replaced by the Borg, no? Or Schneider is clearly the preferable player between the two, no one alive would trade Schneider for Borgen and the only reason Borgen is getting the minutes he is, is our currently awful D construction.

Again, I don’t feel that I’ve slighted or insulted Borgen once. All I’ve said is that he is what he is. Why have other D men his age played triple the NHL games as him and averaged 3+ more minutes of ice time than him, yet we have Rangers fans saying Borgen is better now, based on about 7-8 good games?

Why is it so bad to say he’s a simple, meat and potatoes bottom pairing guy who is doing his job well right now, but I wouldn’t want to, nor advise, pencil him into a long term second pairing role. Kulikov has made a long career being exactly what Borgen is. What’s wrong with that? Rangers fans turn everything into a shiny new toy. He’s been here 11 games and been solid for about 8 of them. There’s 38 or whatever games left. He’s bound to have a few stinkers.

When he’s on the ice for 3 goals against one night and makes a bad turnover, the boards will turn on him and everyone will be saying everything I said in this thread, except they will be saying it with anger and vitriol. I’m saying it calmly and matter of factly, and saying there’s nothing wrong with it. I’m saying don’t ascribe some greater ceiling or value to the guy based off of a decent stretch of hockey during one of our worst ever. Accept that Borgen is already who he is at this stage of his career, has limitations, and should ideally be in the 5/6 spot on your D core. Instead everyone will jump on me for saying it today and in two weeks we’ll get the “great job Drury, trading 2OA for this bum” posts. This is inevitable. I’m just telling people to slow their role and temper their expectations before you pencil him as a long term second pairing player.

I think we are now saying very similar things. The Rangers need more competent NHL d-men. Borgen is that. Whether he is a 4 or 5 is semantics to me. He's a quality NHL d-man who plays a physical style and SHOULDN'T break the bank. Is he untouchable? No. Is he replaceable? I guess, but so are 95% of the players in the NHL. If he fits a need, and the contract he's looking for is reasonable, I'm not opposed to keeping him.

Whether that means he's playing 3rd pairing or 2nd pairing, I really don't think I care. Between him and Schneider, I like the idea of having those two guys spread out over a 2A and 2B pairing behind Fox long term, especially if they collectively are making ~$7m or so, which I think is probably right.

The left side is horrible. No argument from me there. I don't mind Vaakanainen mainly because he is proving to be a competent bottom-pairing d-man and should make peanuts. Both of those things are fine for me from a #6. I'll say this, I'd rather have Vaak + another veteran NHL d-man as a #7 paid ~$1m per season then pay $1.5m or more for a different guy. I'd prefer the depth of having competent NHL d-men knowing that neither are going to set the world on fire. Injuries happen.

 

[The Crypto Guy]

SKA StP has been shit this season - really slipped compared to years passed. And let's use correct not-misleading lingo: DeAngelo's contract has been terminated by the team guess for what? Same old pattern - conflict within organization and shitty defense on the ice.

Did you just make that up or have any credible info to post? Because SKA posted their own post about DeAngelo leaving and it doesn’t suggest that in the slightest.

 

[TGWL]

I don't see the rush right now in signing Borgen. Rangers won 2 in a row and will try and chase a playoff spot, but if it's not happening, decisions have to be made near the deadline and we can decide what to do after having a longer look.

 

[Machinehead]

It was probably 2015 before people stopped suggesting we give Avery a PTO.

Looks like we found a replacement.

 

[LokiDog]

I think we are now saying very similar things. The Rangers need more competent NHL d-men. Borgen is that. Whether he is a 4 or 5 is semantics to me. He's a quality NHL d-man who plays a physical style and SHOULDN'T break the bank. Is he untouchable? No. Is he replaceable? I guess, but so are 95% of the players in the NHL. If he fits a need, and the contract he's looking for is reasonable, I'm not opposed to keeping him.

Whether that means he's playing 3rd pairing or 2nd pairing, I really don't think I care. Between him and Schneider, I like the idea of having those two guys spread out over a 2A and 2B pairing behind Fox long term, especially if they collectively are making ~$7m or so, which I think is probably right.

The left side is horrible. No argument from me there. I don't mind Vaakanainen mainly because he is proving to be a competent bottom-pairing d-man and should make peanuts. Both of those things are fine for me from a #6. I'll say this, I'd rather have Vaak + another veteran NHL d-man as a #7 paid ~$1m per season then pay $1.5m or more for a different guy. I'd prefer the depth of having competent NHL d-men knowing that neither are going to set the world on fire. Injuries happen.

I haven’t really said anything different - people are just offended that I’m not lauding the savior of the hour (not you, you’re always extraordinarily level headed). I keep saying I’m fine with keeping him and I don’t care if he slots somewhere to balance pairings, but it doesn’t elevate him to being a higher quality of player and the people who are starting to convince themselves that we unearthed some hidden gem that only played 16 minutes a night his entire career due to injustices and GMs and coaches who are less competent than the HFNYR posters will be in for a rude awakening if they keep pumping his tires this way. He’s a standard bottom pairing D who can handle some more minutes when needed but he isn’t some undiscovered talent that we stole and is now going to blossom. I am not against Borgen. I am against our board doing what our board does often, which is getting hyped about a shiny new toy, building expectations that never should exist for that player and then turning on that player when they inevitably don’t live up to the fictional status our posters ascribed to them during their brief run as the shiny new toy. Borgen, on his own, not fit into any roster but as a hockey player, is a text book bottom pairing defender. Turning him into anything more than that in the HFNYR mythology only sets us up for another ugly breakup with a player who becomes hated by the fan base. Let him just be what he is.

 

[McRanger92]

I don't see the rush right now in signing Borgen. Rangers won 2 in a row and will try and chase a playoff spot, but if it's not happening, decisions have to be made near the deadline and we can decide what to do after having a longer look.

This is really the bottom line. It's arguing semantics until the deadline. I'll take solace in the fact that Drury was able to get 2 effective D-men for essentially crap we didnt want.

 

[TGWL]

This is a big offseason when you add UFA's and RFA's together, along with those who might find themselves off the team. You need to keep some players I suppose, but It's been a while since we've had so many spots open for opportunities either from prospects to take, trade replacements or UFA singings.

If players can't crack the roster for next season (I'm looking at you Robertson he won't/can't, Othmann) then they should be moved, or in Robertson's case just dumped without being qualified.

 

[noncents]

Again, I don’t feel that I’ve slighted or insulted Borgen once. All I’ve said is that he is what he is. Why have other D men his age played triple the NHL games as him and averaged 3+ more minutes of ice time than him, yet we have Rangers fans saying Borgen is better now, based on about 7-8 good games?

Why is it so bad to say he’s a simple, meat and potatoes bottom pairing guy who is doing his job well right now, but I wouldn’t want to, nor advise, pencil him into a long term second pairing role.

i don't think you're slighting or misrepresenting Borgen here as such.

I just think you're severely overrating Trouba, and an insult to Borgen results from the similitude. The dude may have been roughly as competent at defending the crease and being physical on the boards, but he can't skate. He may be an asset in the right locker room but he's a rare pantload on the ice.

 

[kovazub94]

Did you just make that up or have any credible info to post? Because SKA posted their own post about DeAngelo leaving and it doesn’t suggest that in the slightest.

This tweet is also part of the article I referenced. I've been around here for awhile and hopefully is not known for making shit up. I get access to Russian sourced media and I have used it for references on many occasions going back to days of Cherepanov, Buchnevich, Shesterkiin, Kravtsov etc . sports.ru is the flagship of sports media in Russia, not some unknown outlet

 

[RangerBoy]

Are we trying to emulate Vancouver? They have their reasons for trading 1 of those 2 guys. They aren't selling.



Basically said trade the rentals and be a 3rd party retention team for more picks.

Some of the Rangers rentals will require retention. So many of these teams are capped out. $4.5M for Lindgren. $3.75M for Smith. Borgen is $2.7M but retention may be needed. 3rd party retention is usually not that expensive except when the Rangers are involved and the prices are increased for them. The Rangers should worry about moving their players first.

 

[Machinehead]

Pronman's ranking is the best u23 hockey players in the world, right now. It's not prospects.

Having a pro ranked ahead of a college player is a pretty cold take tbh.

 

[McRanger92]

Some of the Rangers rentals will require retention. So many of these teams are capped out. $4.5M for Lindgren. $3.75M for Smith. Borgen is $2.7M but retention may be needed. 3rd party retention is usually not that expensive except when the Rangers are involved and the prices are increased for them. The Rangers should worry about moving their players first.

Yeah Id rather retain on our players for a better return rather than get an extra 4th or 5th to retain for someone else.

 

[Ruggs225]

Was just looking at some stats and game logs and really was surprised by two things.

1. Will Cuylle- i love him but he is not stepping up after being given more time. 0 pts in 10 games and only 4 pts since the start of December. I dont think he is ppg player like he was to start the year, but c’mon man this is 4th line production.
2. Lafreniere - only 4 pts in december, 3 so far in Jan. Again, need much more from him.

I am all for getting rid of vets, and letting kids lead. But the kids need to start potting some more goals and pts.

Laf for one has had worse pts/60 each month as the season progresses.

They need to take the reigns at some point.

I knew it was bad, but kinda shocked it was this bad with these two.

And laf has been horrid defensively during December. He has seemed to pick up his play lately so hopefully he starts coming around again.

Edit: chytil’s production in Nov and december were also kinda piss poor, but he does create alot of opportunities. But he just needs to stay healthy.

 

[Mac n Gs]

I see it's time for my biannual "stop reading Corey Pronman and taking his hockey opinions seriously" post. He has the attention span of a gnat and uses the buzzword vocabulary that the hockey media loves, so he gets a huge platform. He's proven time and time again that he only can comprehend flash and doesn't understand projecting players outside of systems or analyzing individual skills. I read him for laughs at this point.

As a side note, how much more leeway does Yzerman have in Detroit? His signings have sucked and his big swings haven't paid off. He already fired one of his close friends in Lalonde and just brought in McLellan as the typical retread coach to hopefully get his team turned around. I forget who it was, but one of CJ/Friedman/Seravalli alluded recently to some issues in that room with guys who try vs guys who don't, but it's not hard to see why they suck. Their defense is terrible. I think trading him would be pretty stupid, and I'm all for keeping him, but I do wonder if you could use K'Andre as a chip to get one of their young centers like Danielson or Kasper. They have Buium's brother, but he's not as good, and Simon Edvinsson who probably isn't coming along as quickly as they'd like. Love the player though and he has massive potential at 21 years old. Wallinder is another one, but again, is taking some time. I'm less of a fan of ASP since he's just another one of those highly rated, small offensive dman that rarely translate unless they're absolutely elite at certain skills. Who knows, maybe he'll be different. Regardless, they don't have their defensive core timed that well, and they're going to be stuck with a bunch of younger guys without experience mixed with Seider and a bunch of old guys. They need someone in the middle to help usher that core in. Dumping a bad contract like Compher or Copp is probably an incentive too.

 

[Machinehead]

Was just looking at some stats and game logs and really was surprised by two things.

1. Will Cuylle- i love him but he is not stepping up after being given more time. 0 pts in 10 games and only 4 pts since the start of December. I dont think he is ppg player like he was to start the year, but c’mon man this is 4th line production.
2. Lafreniere - only 4 pts in december, 3 so far in Jan. Again, need much more from him.

I am all for getting rid of vets, and letting kids lead. But the kids need to start potting some more goals and pts.

Laf for one has had worse pts/60 each month as the season progresses.

They need to take the reigns at some point.

I knew it was bad, but kinda shocked it was this bad with these two.

And laf has been horrid defensively during December. He has seemed to pick up his play lately so hopefully he starts coming around again.

To be fair, Cuylle only really started playing more the last couple of games, so we'll see how it goes.

Lafreniere has no excuse. He played over 17 minutes last year and is just a tick under 18 this year. He's a fixture in the top six.