haohmaru
boomshakalaka
Borgen has been A LOT better. People tend to forget his whole life was uprooted, new team, new team mates, new system, etc... These players are people.
Speculation: Roster Building Thread : Part XV (Light em up!)
- Thread starter Leonardo87
- Start date
Provorov’s brother will be attending Ohio State I believe, so he may be willing to sign with Columbus at a reasonable price.
McRanger92
Registered User
- Jun 7, 2017
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I would like to extend Borgen. He is the type of player we've missed since we let Mikkola walk. It's all about what his contract demands are and what we can get for him at the deadline though.
No. I 100% agree with you. I obviously have no tangible proof, but I feel this is one of the biggest pet peeves I have with our boards. We get very hyperbolic. Trouba was literally public enemy #1 and people here would tell you he wasn’t even good enough to be a #8 for an NHL team. Borgen may as well just be Trouba wearing a disguise and he’s got people talking about “the BORG!” and penciling him into a top four role for next year. It’s the same damn player, except this one is new, has no expectations or negative associations and makes practically nothing.
Our defense is not good and Borgen is a 6/7 D on a good team. He’s been adequate and even good at times, but that’s what he is. Of course it’s a lot more palatable when the guy makes peanuts and has no expectations. The D in general has been better. As has the team. But it had nowhere to go but up and this is a TINY upswing. We’ve got people extending Smith and penciling Borgen into a second pairing spot for next season already. Let’s pump the breaks. Borgen is a strict 5-7 D, period. Vaakanainen is literally a 7. These are still NHL players. We just literally weren’t playing NHL hockey before. Just because we’ve started to remember how to do that does not mean the ship is righted or these guys are better than what they are. For the record, I’m fine with Borgen as a cheap third pairing guy. But he is not a savior nor the cause of our tiny turn around. Correlation =/= causation.
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- Sep 20, 2007
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Wow feels good to have our forum back!
Name 5 teams in this league where Borgen would be a 7...
Or even a 6.
You might be able to come up with 3 and even that would be debatable.
I think people willing to extend him right now need to chill, but he's been mostly good since he's been here and there really isn't any debating that. Saying other wise is just being negative for the sake of it. He's been way better than Trouba was.
jerseyjinx94
I jinx players.
n8
WAAAAAAA!!!
Maybe he’s not a 7 on many teams, but he certainly is a 5-6 on almost every team in the league. We don’t have to agree on this list, but he’s at best a 5 on most teams in the league, and on the teams where he is a 5, it’s usually behind a loaded top 4 like Minnesota or Colorado. For example, I wouldn’t have him playing over:
Ottawa: Sanderson, Chabot, Zub, Jensen, and Kleven is better as a rookie with far better potential, so would get the minutes making Borgen 6.
Los Angeles: Gavrikov, Anderson, Edmundson, Clarke, Spencer, and Doughty is out
Seattle: Dunn, Larsson, Oleksiak, Montour, Evans is a 23 year old pacing for 40 points
Boston: McAvoy, Lindholm, Carlo, Zadorov, Lohrei
Tampa: Hedman, McDonagh, Moser, Cernak
Minnesota: Faber, Brodin, Spurgeon, Middleton and they’ve got Jiricek coming up
Colorado: Makar, Toews, Manson, Girard
Buffalo: Dahlin, Byram, Power, Samuelsson, arguably Clifton
Montreal: Hutson, Guhle, Matheson, Carrier, Savard, Xhekaj
NJ: Seigenthaler, Hamilton, Hughes, Pesce, Dillon
Washington: Chychryn, Carlson, Sandin, Roy, Ferhevary, TVR
Vegas: Pietrangelo, Theodore, Hanifin, McNabb, probably Whitecloud
Carolina: Slavin, Orlov, Burns, Gostisbhere, Walker
I could keep going but he ends up 5 or 6 on almost every team.
Realistically, there are maybe 5 teams I would have him in the 4 spot on, and almost all of those teams, like Anaheim, have 3+ guys under 23 years old who will cement themselves as better regulars than Borgen by the end of this season if not early next.
Do you really think he is more than a bottom pairing D? Would you care as much if I said 5/6 instead of 5-7? He’s not more than a 5 anywhere but on the most dreadful NHL blue line. He’s really hardly any different than Trouba except for the cap hit and all of the unresolved hatred we all have for Trouba for being so overpaid. Borgen is appropriately priced Trouba. Maybe a few hairs better, but virtually the same player, just appropriately priced and not leaned on as heavily.
Play Borgen 21-22 minutes per night, every night for 5 years and see how much better than Trouba he looks. Guy is 28 and has averaged 16:30ish per game his entire career outside of 10 games with NY. Again, I’m fine with him as a cheap bottom pairing guy. By no means do I want him playing 18-22 minutes on any team I expect to have serious hopes of contending.
n8
WAAAAAAA!!!
Borgen hits more but Kevin Klein made more of an impact on the scoresheet. Two 26 point seasons. Borgen has two similar seasons with Seattle but we haven't seen that impact here yet. It's an interesting comparison. Klein always felt way tougher. More grit, motor, and snarl. Borgen is more mobile which suits today's NHL better. Interesting comparison. Echoing earlier post, low AAV for 5-6 years sounds like a win. Low AAV gives us the flexibility to move him. Although, you'd think the same was true for Nemeth (even though he was clearly WAAAY worse of a player WTH where they thinking they weren't) and he somehow cost us TWO 2nd picks to unload.
Bolded are guys I'd take him over right now. Kleven may have potential to be something one day but he's pretty f***ing awful right now.
The others are just giant oafs with some rep. Edmonson used to be good but hasn't been good for while. Ditto Savard. Samuelsson has always sucked, Xhekaj is the D version of Rempe and TVR is really what you think Borgen is (a 6-7.)
I don't think we can really draw anything major from 11 games (or the games he played this year on SEA where he was way worse than he had been previously) but lets not get it twisted, this guy would play on almost every team. If the Rangers do trade him, he'll be eating pretty major minutes for who ever trades for him. I've had the sneaking suspicion that Florida has been hot on him and if he goes there he'll go there and kill it.
He's performed at a level higher than that of a 6-7 since being traded here. Doesn't mean that will continue but thats what we've seen.
Shesterkybomb
Registered User
- Dec 30, 2016
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I wonder if it's the same thing Sid went through earlier in his career? Like a soft tissue neck injury that acts like a concussion
We can agree he’s more of a 5-6, than the 6-7 I originally said. He’s certainly not a #4 except in the most dire of situations.
TVR has played 640+ NHL games and averaged over 17:30 for his entire career. Borgen averages 16:30 for his whole career, even with this 11 game increase on a team that’s defense has been, possibly, the worst in the league this year, but suddenly he’s going to go to a contender at the deadline and start playing “major minutes”? Not unless they have injuries.
Zadorov is a year older but has played 3 times as many NHL games, averaged over 18:15 for his career and is playing nearly 20 minutes a night on a better team than us this year. Samuelsson is 24 and averages 20:30 per night for his career. He doesn’t suck, he just doesn’t put points on the board and Buffalo has sucked for his whole career. I think he’s one of the more underrated strictly defense only guys.
But it’s not even a big deal if we agree on the specific players. Borgen is a bottom pairing defender at best. Every team in the league has a guy that other teams’ fans have barely heard of, that they think is under appreciated and would say the exact same things about. It’s just bias, and if he re-signs in NY, ~12 months from now, when the shine has worn off, everyone on these boards will be talking about how Borgen’s a #6 that we need to upgrade on. And, just for good measure, because I know squabbling over whether he’s a 4/5 or 6 is pretty silly, I’m still pro-Borgen and fine with him being our BOTTOM PAIR RHD; I’m just calling it like I see it. If he’s averaging 18+ minutes long term on your roster, you need some serious upgrades. He should be playing 16 minutes of reliable, low event, bottom pair hockey on any good team.
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- Nov 2, 2011
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A diatribe about how our board isn't being harsh enough on our own players and calling the decent Dman a 6/7, but then immediately moving the goalposts to ohhhhh well actually I meant being a 5/6
The only thing that spirals faster than this team is this board lmao
I think in the very quick back and forth it is pretty clear that he is a bottom pairing defender at worst
At best, he is a competent and decent middle pair guy
The only thing that spirals faster than this team is this board lmao
I think in the very quick back and forth it is pretty clear that he is a bottom pairing defender at worst
At best, he is a competent and decent middle pair guy
Really? A guy who has never, ever been a middle pairing guy in his entire career, at age 28, is now one because he’s been good in about 7 of the 11 games since being traded here. Because I promise if you go back to the GDTs from his first few games you’ll hear people unimpressed and see a bunch of fancy charts saying he was awful each game. So a 7 game sample size - where everyone is desperate to latch onto something positive after seeing possibly the most disgraceful stretch in NYR history - has morphed a guy who is the literal definition of career bottom pairing player into a decent middle pairing guy!
My initial post in the entire argument called him a 5-7 as well as a 6-7. Go back to it, read the entire post, and if you don’t find “5-7” in it, I’ll delete my account. So I “moved the goalpost” by saying okay, 5-6, not 5-7. Wowzers, I am just besides myself with shame.
If he’s a bottom pairing guy at worst and a middle pairing guy at best, but has made it to 28 years old without averaging more than 16:30 of ice time, I guess he’s just always at his worst, huh? Or is he going to be a new player going forward? This is exactly what we did with Kakko. If you extrapolate his 5v5 rate as a 3rd liner against easier competition and ignore the fact that he sucked in every opportunity he had to be more than a third liner, you can see that he’s actually totally a potential first liner. And now Kakko’s been traded for a player we have to lie about being a good middle pairing guy, when he has never been that in his career.
Borgen is a text book bottom pairing defenseman. Projecting him as more, relying on him to be more, would be very stupid. My first post called him a 6-7 and a 5-7. The only goal post I moved was saying 7 might be harsh, but he’s still very much a bottom pairing guy and that’s all he should be. I’ll happily stand by that assessment for the remainder of Will Borgen’s days in the NHL. Start playing him 20 minutes a night, every night for 2-3 years and see how happy you are with him on your second pair half way through that contract. He is the definition of bottom pairing D man.
It’s fine to be happy with what Borgen has brought so far. I’ve said in every post in this conversation I would be fine with re-signing him as a bottom pairing player. The fact that you think we found some overlooked gem middle pairing guy here is silly. Hamburger meat looks like filet mignon when you’re starving. We just had the worst stretch of hockey most of us have seen from this team in our lives. Borgen being steady doesn’t make him more than he is, and what he is, given that he isn’t some prospect with untapped potential, is pretty cut and dry. His career average ice time would rank him 5-6 among regular D on every NHL team. A seven game sample size at this stage of his career does not redefine who he is and it certainly doesn’t warrant people starting to project future lineups where he’s on our second pairing. That’s how expectations are created and the player becomes hated 2 years down the road, playing a role they shouldn’t be in.
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n8
WAAAAAAA!!!
I would say the strongest cases would be Boston, Carolina, Colorado (when healthy), NJ, probably Seattle who literally played other players over him, Vegas, and Washington
Questionable but a case could be made for Buffalo, Florida, Minnesota, Montreal, Philadelphia
- Nov 2, 2011
- 7,833
- 8,038
I think he could play up to the level as a guy that doesn't detract from a middle pair with a good puck moving #3 with him
He has been solid
He played in Buffalo for 2 years and then expansion Seattle for 3 years - not exactly development havens. Players have found their strides later on in careers, especially making a jump from being a bottom tier guy to a solid mid tier guy. We've seen plenty of Rangers come from other teams and advance their careers here after having been in the league for a while already. It isn't some unheard of or out of the realm thing. Nobody is banking on it, but to write it off seems silly
Also, I want to trade Borgen for 2nd+ if we can get that
80shockeywasbuns
Registered User
- Feb 12, 2022
- 2,183
- 3,908
It helps until you have to handle the biscuit pinned against the wall with a guy draped on your back and somehow use your 10 foot long arms and stick.
Eye of Ra
Grandmaster General of the International boards
Mikas thread is locked so im asking here. Is he playing better?
CJ still sees the Rangers looking to change the core of their team/bigger remodeling whether it's prior to March 7 or in the summer. The recent wins haven't changed their mindset. Sell their rentals. CJ said everything is on the table for the Rangers.
Mika is playing much better. He looked lost with zero confidence.
I read that information a few weeks ago. Columbus is playing really well. They have new management with Don Waddell. New coach in Dean Evason. They always had so much young talent. Werenski is playing the best hockey of his career. Norris. The two Russian kids are good. Johnson. Sillinger. Monahan has been terrific for them. He is hurt now. They can score goals. Their goaltending is inconsistent. I was watching their last game against the Blues. I thought it would be shootout. 2-1 win. Jet Greaves lost his shutout in the final seconds. I play hockey DFS on DraftKings and I thought that game would be shootout. I stacked players from both teams and it was a 2-1 game. They had played a game a few weeks ago and it was 6-4 Columbus which was up big and they had to hold on.
Uglybstrd
Registered User
- Apr 10, 2012
- 612
- 522
I havent watched lately, but I think someone mentioned somewhere that the coaching staff has reverted to playing 1-3-1. That could be a huge reason for the teams improved play in the D zone (and all of our D`s playing better):
leetch99
Leetch66 Joined 2007
We had so many bench minors of late ...I just figured he jumped out by mistake LOL....
leetch99
Leetch66 Joined 2007
If Igor wins us a cup or 2 within the first 5 years of that deal we will suffer through the remaining 3 .....or at least I will . The chance you take for elite people in key spots these days .
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