Speculation: Roster Building Thread : Part XV (Light em up!)

[hardnosed]

I mean those D pairs are whatever... you could literally come up with EVERY SINGLE ITERATION & have it be wrong

The worse part of what has occured with this defense since the Trouba trade is that the Rangers are showing that they have zero confidence in Schneider. How is this guy still on the 3rd pair? He's been passed by these new guys who are lucky to be in any team's lineup. In the past week, Schneider did not even play on the PK and that was with Miller injured. We used 23/55 and 17/18. Wasn't Schneider supposed to step into Trouba's role? What the hell is happening?

 

[n8]

If NHL gms didn't know KK was in trade talks they need to hire people to read the Internet. They even mentioned it on NHL shows. This sounds like nonsense imo. What is the going price for a 6th year guy on pace for 11 goals after 13 goals the season before?

It wasn't that they didn't know KK was on the block. It was they didn't know it was the closing bell. They didn't know it was the 11th hour to get final offers in. And I think we all felt that way. The Seattle package really surprised all of us.

Dreger said he wouldn't be surprised if Francis pulled a "if I hear about this on social media, I'm pulling the deal." or some other type of FOMO inducing "take it or leave it" power move that made Drury flinch.

 

[LOFIN]

If NHL gms didn't know KK was in trade talks they need to hire people to read the Internet. They even mentioned it on NHL shows. This sounds like nonsense imo. What is the going price for a 6th year guy on pace for 11 goals after 13 goals the season before?

This is the quote:

"Based on the reaction I got from other club execs around the league when that deal went down, I would say that Chris Drury probably left something on the table...the execs said they didn't know that was going down."

So, my interpretation is that there would've been better offers if other GMs had known that's what it would take.

And as for what more Kakko should fetch? Probably something more than a borderline NHL defenceman and two lousy picks. Kakko is an established 3rd line winger minimum at this point of his career, still under team control.

 

[NYR Viper]

It wasn't that they didn't know KK was on the block. It was they didn't know it was the closing bell. They didn't know it was the 11th hour to get final offers in. And I think we all felt that way. The Seattle package really surprised all of us.

Dreger said he wouldn't be surprised if Francis pulled a "if I hear about this on social media, I'm pulling the deal." or some other type of FOMO inducing "take it or leave it" power move that made Drury flinch.

This is likely not the case and more a case of other GM’s saying they thought their deal was better because they liked their players who they were trying to offload. I doubt it was a ‘power move’

 

[bleedblue94]

I didn't see this until today, but pretty much what I had assumed, Dreger said that the Rangers didn't get max value out of Kakko. Plenty of GMs around the league were interested, but had no idea a deal was about to go down this fast

I said when the trade was made that the organizational limited the number of teams that they would actually trade him to because of other considerations. I thought it was pretty self-explanatory that they were only willing to trade him to a handful of teams where they viewed it lesser risk for him to become an impactful player in the short term or affect the rangers pr this year in games that they played against them, AKA trade him to the Western conference to a bad team. In some ways this is very much like when the bruins traded Joe Thornton and they just made the deal happen to a team as far away as possible that would not have as much risk to look awful in the short term, yet the trade had everybody in the league scratching their head and many people questioning why they weren't involved because they would have offered more than what was actually accepted in a trade. Unfortunately there are times that trades are dictated by things beyond the actual return

 

[NickyFotiu]

It wasn't that they didn't know KK was on the block. It was they didn't know it was the closing bell. They didn't know it was the 11th hour to get final offers in. And I think we all felt that way. The Seattle package really surprised all of us.

Dreger said he wouldn't be surprised if Francis pulled a "if I hear about this on social media, I'm pulling the deal." or some other type of FOMO inducing "take it or leave it" power move that made Drury flinch.

Dreger said a lot of stuff but most were his made up theories and opinions. There is no proof Francis actually said anything like that nor that Drury would have listened. Its normal for GMs to speak to multiple teams. The tell for me is everytime Dregar wanted to praise KK he went back 6 years ago. Also never mentioned KKs obvious lack of speed. Time will tell. Wish KK the best but highly doubt I will see these mythical KK 60 point seasons.

 

[n8]

This is likely not the case and more a case of other GM’s saying they thought their deal was better because they liked their players who they were trying to offload. I doubt it was a ‘power move’

Well it's Dreger's interpretation of people he knows vs You reading my interpretation of his interpretation through a tweet of a tweet of a quote of a player.

 

[NickyFotiu]

This is the quote:

So, my interpretation is that there would've been better offers if other GMs had known that's what it would take.

And as for what more Kakko should fetch? Probably something more than a borderline NHL defenceman and two lousy picks. Kakko is an established 3rd line winger minimum at this point of his career, still under team control.

I understand but thats your interpretation of Dregers interpretation about of heresay. Its been years of KK trade talks. If Dregers unnamed GMs had a stronger offer to make they should have made it by now. If roles are reversed how much would you want the Rangers paying for a 6 year player who has speed issues and KKs production? A first? A second?

 

[LOFIN]

I understand but thats your interpretation of Dregers interpretation about of heresay. Its been years of KK trade talks. If Dregers unnamed GMs had a stronger offer to make they should have made it by now. If roles are reversed how much would you want the Rangers paying for a 6 year player who has speed issues and KKs production? A first? A second?

I'm not here to say what the price should've been or could've been. But all I know that is a lousy price for Kakko, just like Blais and 2nd was lousy for Buchnevich at the time.

 

[NickyFotiu]

This is the quote:

So, my interpretation is that there would've been better offers if other GMs had known that's what it would take.

And as for what more Kakko should fetch? Probably something more than a borderline NHL defenceman and two lousy picks. Kakko is an established 3rd line winger minimum at this point of his career, still under team control.

Okay so you are made the NYR GM today and you want KK back. Would you trade a 2nd and a 5th for him?

 

[LOFIN]

Okay so you are made the NYR GM today and you want KK back. Would you trade a 2nd and a 5th for him?

I think this a stupid hypothetical, because we also know what Kakko is here. A team buying him isn't likely buying him just to be a 3rd liner, which is his floor now.

 

[Gordon Bombay]

This season has been the equivalent of Pearl Jam announcing a tour and then Eddie Vedder showing up sounding like (current) Bob Dylan, McCready no longer being able to play any of the solos and them using a drum track because Matt Cameron can’t even hold the sticks anymore.

We're seeing Stone's solo work

 

[NYR Viper]

Well it's Dreger's interpretation of people he knows vs You reading my interpretation of his interpretation through a tweet of a tweet of a quote of a player.

Yeah Dreger has proven he doesn’t know much, especially about the Rangers. Not taking him seriously

 

[bleedblue94]

Okay so you are made the NYR GM today and you want KK back. Would you trade a 2nd and a 5th for him?

Lias Anderson was not an NHL player and he landed a 2nd round pick. Kakko for all his issues is an NHL 3rd liner. He should land a 2nd plus plus any day. Brogen is the issue here bc it seems that nyr valued him more than most anyone else did so the other parts around him are lesser. Personally I don't think a pending UFA should have been the main piece here, unless they plan to flip him for a 2nd at the deadline. Getting a 2nd, 3rd, and 6th looks better to me than borgen, 3rd, and 6th

Yeah Dreger has proven he doesn’t know much, especially about the Rangers. Not taking him seriously

It's well known that Dave Nonis was his leak source that built his career. Once Nonis was out of Toronto dreger's "credible" information really dried up

 

[NickyFotiu]

I think this a stupid hypothetical, because we also know what Kakko is here. A team buying him isn't likely buying him just to be a 3rd liner, which is his floor now.

I don't think it is a stupid question. You are in charge. You can do whatever you want via coaches, linemates, etc. Forget the Rangers. You are in charge of Utah or any other NHL team. How much would you pay for KK? If you are going to say a player, 3rd and 6th are horrible then I think it is fair to ask what you would trade for him.

 

[NickyFotiu]

Lias Anderson was not an NHL player and he landed a 2nd round pick. Kakko for all his issues is an NHL 3rd liner. He should land a 2nd plus plus any day. Brogen is the issue here bc it seems that nyr valued him more than most anyone else did so the other parts around him are lesser. Personally I don't think a pending UFA should have been the main piece here, unless they plan to flip him for a 2nd at the deadline. Getting a 2nd, 3rd, and 6th looks better to me than borgen, 3rd, and 6th


It's well known that Dave Nonis was his leak source that built his career. Once Nonis was out of Toronto dreger's "credible" information really dried up

Okay so you think KK is worth a 2nd plus instead of a 3rd plus. I appreciate the answer. A 2nd would have been great but its not earth shattering over Seattles 3rd.
The difference is Lias had probably played less than 70 games in 3 years so their was more of the new draft choice unknown. KK has played well over 300 games in 6 years so scouts have a much better better feel for who he is.

Also Will Cuyle was drafted #60. How much further do you think Seattle's 3rd round pick will be? Maybe 5 picks later? 10 at most?

 

[NYR Viper]

Lias Anderson was not an NHL player and he landed a 2nd round pick. Kakko for all his issues is an NHL 3rd liner. He should land a 2nd plus plus any day. Brogen is the issue here bc it seems that nyr valued him more than most anyone else did so the other parts around him are lesser. Personally I don't think a pending UFA should have been the main piece here, unless they plan to flip him for a 2nd at the deadline. Getting a 2nd, 3rd, and 6th looks better to me than borgen, 3rd, and 6th


It's well known that Dave Nonis was his leak source that built his career. Once Nonis was out of Toronto dreger's "credible" information really dried up

Borgen is worth a 2nd + 5th at the deadline, or somewhere around there. He’s a useful piece not just for that but also because he allowed Drury to send Mancini down to play big minutes in Hartford.

 

[bleedblue94]

Borgen is worth a 2nd + 5th at the deadline, or somewhere around there. He’s a useful piece not just for that but also because he allowed Drury to send Mancini down to play big minutes in Hartford.

I think he possibly lands a 2nd but it depends how he plays here. People were trying to be optimistic of his play in Seattle thinking that when he went to a new team some of the warts would go away, but if you see the same warts at a second team then it starts to question if it's the player and not just the environment. If nyr wants to resign him then hope he's not great, if nyr wants to flip him then hope he plays great!

 

[LOFIN]

I don't think it is a stupid question. You are in charge. You can do whatever you want via coaches, linemates, etc. Forget the Rangers. You are in charge of Utah or any other NHL team. How much would you pay for KK? If you are going to say a player, 3rd and 6th are horrible then I think it is fair to ask what you would trade for him.

I sure would up those picks, no doubt about that.

I'm not here to suggest that Kakko would fetch a first or something. I'm just saying that an established RFA 3rd line defensive winger is worth more than a fringe NHL defenceman entering UFA, and two meh picks.

 

[Clark Kellogg]

Phil Esposito school of General Management.
Team has Vanbiesbrouck and Richter.
Let me trade a quality defenseman I need
(Kjell Samuelsson) for a goalie I don’t need
(Bob Frosse) so Washington doesn’t get him.
A GM should worry about the quality of their roster and not about their opponents.
“you can parle or you can go to war”
…Winston Churchill
Just because you parle doesn’t mean you still won’t end up going to war.
Trading a player for less value to keep him out of your conference doesn’t guarantee that he won’t end up back in your conference through a later trade or free agency.

 

[NickyFotiu]

I sure would up those picks, no doubt about that.

I'm not here to suggest that Kakko would fetch a first or something. I'm just saying that an established RFA 3rd line defensive winger is worth more than a fringe NHL defenceman entering UFA, and two meh picks.

So you would up the picks from Seattles 3rd and 6th.
You aren't saying a 1st so are you saying a 2nd?

Seattles 3rd will probably be around #65.

 

[LokiDog]

Okay so you think KK is worth a 2nd plus instead of a 3rd plus. I appreciate the answer. A 2nd would have been great but its not earth shattering over Seattles 3rd.
The difference is Lias had probably played less than 70 games in 3 years so their was more of the new draft choice unknown. KK has played well over 300 games in 6 years so scouts have a much better better feel for who he is.

Also Will Cuyle was drafted #60. How much further do you think Seattle's 3rd round pick will be? Maybe 5 picks later? 10 at most?

I think @LOFIN and @bleedblue94 argument that Kakko should have been worth a 2nd + a better piece than Borgen - or one that still had room to potentially improve, or at least was under team control and not months from UFA - is a fair assessment. Ideally, rather than a pick and Borgen level player, he should have been part of a change of scenery type deal for someone like Greig or Pinto (would anyone have been upset if we’d had to add a 3rd or given away Vesey to get Pinto?).

The report that there were more interested teams but they weren’t aware that Drury was itching to pull the trigger so fast, to me indicates that if he hadn’t been spiteful about Kakko’s comments and waited a week, he could have gotten a better return. If nothing else he could have said “Seattle’s offer is Borgen and a 3rd, what you got? Oh, Greig and a 3rd? Interesting… what about you, what’s your offer? Okay Seattle, Ottawa offered a better, younger player and a 3rd. If the piece is Borgen but you’ve gotta improve your pick”.

I mean, wtf do I know? Obviously nothing, but simultaneously, possibly just as much as Drury, evidently. Drury hasn’t really gotten a good return when he was the one selling a player on a single deal he’s made. It feels like any time he’s the one selling, he is in a rush to pull the trigger on the first offer that comes his way.

 

[E-Train]

Phil Esposito school of General Management.
Team has Vanbiesbrouck and Richter.
Let me trade a quality defenseman I need
(Kjell Samuelsson) for a goalie I don’t need
(Bob Frosse) so Washington doesn’t get him.
A GM should worry about the quality of their roster and not about their opponents.
“you can parle or you can go to war”
…Winston Churchill
Just because you parle doesn’t mean you still won’t end up going to war.
Trading a player for less value to keep him out of your conference doesn’t guarantee that he won’t end up back in your conference trough a later trade or free agency.

He made so many awful deals and that was near the top. Acquires Dean Kennedy, giving up Todd Elik among others, only to deal him back to LA less than two months later for a 4th. Insane

 

[NickyFotiu]

I think @LOFIN and @bleedblue94 argument that Kakko should have been worth a 2nd + a better piece than Borgen - or one that still had room to potentially improve, or at least was under team control and not months from UFA - is a fair assessment. Ideally, rather than a pick and Borgen level player, he should have been part of a change of scenery type deal for someone like Greig or Pinto (would anyone have been upset if we’d had to add a 3rd or given away Vesey to get Pinto?).

The report that there were more interested teams but they weren’t aware that Drury was itching to pull the trigger so fast, to me indicates that if he hadn’t been spiteful about Kakko’s comments and waited a week, he could have gotten a better return. If nothing else he could have said “Seattle’s offer is Borgen and a 3rd, what you got? Oh, Greig and a 3rd? Interesting… what about you, what’s your offer? Okay Seattle, Ottawa offered a better, younger player and a 3rd. If the piece is Borgen but you’ve gotta improve your pick”.

I mean, wtf do I know? Obviously nothing, but simultaneously, possibly just as much as Drury, evidently. Drury hasn’t really gotten a good return when he was the one selling a player on a single deal he’s made. It feels like any time he’s the one selling, he is in a rush to pull the trigger on the first offer that comes his way.

Fair enough. I don't find Dreger theorizing on that podcast to be anything concrete at all though. His interpretation and heresay. In the KK thread I asked what his value was before the trade. I hoped it could get as high as a 2nd but feared it could be as low as a 4th/5th after 6 years. Seattles 3rd will probably be around #65. We got Cuylle at #60 with LAs 2nd round pick. Plus we may get more if Borgen is moved as a rental.

 

[stan the caddy]

This season has been the equivalent of Pearl Jam announcing a tour and then Eddie Vedder showing up sounding like (current) Bob Dylan, McCready no longer being able to play any of the solos and them using a drum track because Matt Cameron can’t even hold the sticks anymore.

It's more like when Yoko started dating John Lennon. Chris Drury is Yoko.