Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part XLV

[Edge]

As a huge fan of rebuilding the "right way"-- whatever that means... I totally get the narrative that signing Panarin or trading for Trouba is going back to the NYR old way of doing things. But there are different trains of thought about the best way to rebuild.

One train of thought is go almost entirely with youth, rely on that youth in most top6 and top4 positions and have some decent character vets to help them along. This is akin to edmonton oilers or arizona coyotes style rebuild.

Another train of thought is somewhat similar to our roster this past season, which is to rely on vets with most of the responsibility until the youth is ready to take over. The vets in this version are ones that can easily get relegated to lesser positions on the roster or traded at deadline. (Zucc, Hayes, McQuaid).

The third train of thought is to bring in younger vets who are the go-to players. Guys who can be relied on for the next 4-5 years to shoulder the heat. Guys who will keep kids like Kakko or Kravtsov from being asked to lead the team. Keep in mind, those kids no matter how good they might be this season and next are still 4-5 years from hitting their prime still.

My guess is, the Rangers prefer the third option. We will need to have a few more vets on this team no matter what. Ideally, you'd want guys to take some of the pressure off of the kids who need time to develop. Especially in an environment like New York.

But if the cost is too high for guys like Trouba or Panarin, the team will settle for option #2. But option #2 is scarier than option #1. It could a lot of ways. Is option #2 giving out 5+ year deals to Duchene or Hayes? Or is it 2-3 year deals for guys similar to Strome and Namestnikov? Neither option is ideal. We most likely have to be okay with overpaying or over-term the Duchene's and Hayes'. And those deals may be really hard to move. And the lesser support role players will not really shelter the kids that much and we will be looking at the 2nd tier of those guys as many may want more stability long term.

As far as Trouba goes -- he makes a lot of sense. We have nothing in the system like him on the right side. The only kid whose not an undersized puck mover is Keane and he's just 6'. Trouba would be first pairing guy who can shelter Fox, D'Angelo, Lundkvist. He can PK. He's still only 25. He's ideal as a long term piece that can shoulder the burden until surpassed by a kid or two down the road. Finally, bringing in Trouba allows the team to focus on adding skill, size and speed upfront with #20OA and a vast majority of the picks over the next 2 drafts. If we don't trade for a guy like Trouba then I could see us targeting Seider at #20 or others later in the draft. But if we traded for Trouba, pick #20 could be a guy like Dorofeyev.

The real issue is, what does Trouba cost? Would we be willing to trade Kreider and create another hole?

I hear you. But speaking from the other side of this issue, can you see why people are already having a hard time believing that?

In the last year, it’s “only been” Kovy, or only Tavares, or only EK, or only Panarin, or only Trouba.

And then it starts to morph. You start seeing one post about Panarin and Trouba. Then another.

We subtly go from singing said players, to trading for said players. Then the proposals start morphing from shipping out Skjei, to including someone like Andersson or the 20th pick.

People on this side of the debate have already been primed for the next player or two it’s “only” going to be, or the the second round of depth we can afford to move, despite not really seeing said depth in action.

Slowly but surely the conversation keeps morphing until it’s a lot bigger than the initial “idea” that was floated out there. Now it’s Trouba and Panarin at a combined $19 million for the next 7 years, to help the kids. And then quickly, helping the kids becomes helping Trouba and Panarin. Because they’re in their prime, and it would be a shame to waste their talent.

And yeah, the last two paragraphs are speculation. Totally. But it’s speculation based on a pattern of comments and the conversations we’ve seen around here, and the way we’ve responded to things over time. So yeah, that’s where that pushback comes from.

 

[duhmetreE]

I know I'm in the minority but I'd shop/package Chytil for the right piece. I'm talking about a 'Seth Jones type' of piece.

I'd see what Savard would cost. That's the type of defender we need IMO.

Trouba will cost too much. In assets and cap space. I don't think he's good enough to warrant the cost.

 

[duhmetreE]

I hear you. But speaking from the other side of this issue, can you see why people are already having a hard time believing that?

In the last year, it’s “only been” Kovy, or only Tavares, or only EK, or only Panarin, or only Trouba.

And then it starts to morph. You start seeing one post about Panarin and Trouba. Then another.

We subtly go from singing said players, to trading for said players. Then the proposals start morphing from shipping out Skjei, to including someone like Andersson or the 20th pick.

People on this side of the debate have already been primed for the next player or two it’s “only” going to be, or the the second round of depth we can afford to move, despite not really seeing said depth in action.

Slowly but surely the conversation keeps morphing until it’s a lot bigger than the initial “idea” that was floated out there. Now it’s Trouba and Panarin at a combined $19 million for the next 7 years, to help the kids. And then quickly, helping the kids becomes helping Trouba and Panarin. Because they’re in their prime, and it would be a shame to waste their talent.

And yeah, the last two paragraphs are speculation. Totally. But it’s speculation based on a pattern of comments and the conversations we’ve seen around here, and the way we’ve responded to things over time. So yeah, that’s where that pushback comes from.

What do posts on HF have to do with actuality?

 

[Leetch3]

I know I'm in the minority but I'd shop/package Chytil for the right piece. I'm talking about a 'Seth Jones type' of piece.

I'd see what Savard would cost. That's the type of defender we need IMO.

Trouba will cost too much. In assets and cap space. I don't think he's good enough to warrant the cost.

if you can make a seth jones type deal than ok but what young dman is on that level and is available?

 

[Leetch3]

I still think this team’s best chance for long term sustained success is having another premium draft pick in 2020. Not sure how to best make that happen, be it trading Kreider for a 2020 pick or avoiding the lure of the UFA this year, but we are so close to coming out of the other side of this rebuild in amazing shape and I’d really hate to miss the mark by screwing up the end game.

trade kreider to a bubble team for a 2020 pick...stay away from top UFAs and zuke re-signs with dallas giving us 3 1st...2019-20 is the year of the triple tank

 

[Trxjw]

I know it's putting a lot of value on the magic beans aspect of draft picks, but I'd be pretty hesitant to move that Winnipeg 1st. If Knight goes in the teens and some other GMs have differing boards we could end up with a really strong player there or move up to get someone sliding in the teens. So when someone is putting that pick in a deal for Trouba, I'm thinking about how I'd feel trading Newhook, Seider, or Brink in the package. Puts a damper on it pretty quickly for me.

 

[Beacon]

No it isn't.

It literally is. Most people arguing to sign Panarin say we can't wait until our most talented kids (Kakko, Chytil, Kravtsov, K'Andre, Lundkvist, Jets pick, etc) are no longer teens, and are at the start of their prime because no UFA or trade target like Panarin will be available around the time Kakko, et al are at least 22-25 years old. That argument is exposed as a lie when people also demand every other big name rumored to be available.

There's also the idea that we need vets to lead the kids, but that one is exposed by not wanting someone like Callahan: a hard worker who understands the game and was our team captain. Likewise, the desire to get rid of Staal even if it means paying a cap penalty for 4 years despite him being an upstanding guy who wore a letter and has been part of this org for nearly a decade and a half. Guys like Cally and Staal are perfect as leaders for the kids, but they do not help the Rangers go from 14th in the East to 10th, so f 'em.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

if you can make a seth jones type deal than ok but what young dman is on that level and is available?

For real lol.

I too would trade Chytil for a player who there is exactly 1 of in the league lol.

 

[Edge]

Now is the time to find these things out though. The only way to find out what we have is to create opportunities for players to show us. Being too careful about this stuff can hinder player's development just as much as putting them into a situation they're not ready for.

Also, it's not like we have a veteran who can fill that role adequately right now either, so I'm not seeing how this would change anything.

Exactly, now is the time to find these things out. So let’s do that this year.

Yeah, we can be too careful. That is a legit concern. But we haven’t gotten to that point yet, because we haven’t even seen what we have. We’re not talking about June 2021, and being cautious with Andersson, Chytil, ADA and a group of players who are 22-27. A large chunk of our so-called future barely has one foot in the NHL, if they’ve ever even seen NHL ice.

Let’s see what they’ve got and then go from there. Thrilled if they succeed. If they’re not ready, we’ve got Shattenkirk and Smith who can take shifts on the right and eat minutes, however painfully. But the kids will get more time to develop.

If a year from now we’re still not seeing progress like we expect, then we adjust and do what we have to.

I’m not saying we need to be in nursery mode until 2023. But can we at least get these kids into their second full seasons and onto the ice for the first time before we start talking mega signings and mega trades and $20 million in contracts?

I don’t think that’s an ultra conservative approach.

 

[Bob Richards]

"You want veteran leadership with the kids through Panarin yet you wouldn't take Ryan Callahan? That makes you a FRAUD. A LIAR"

 

[Edge]

What do posts on HF have to do with actuality?

Because if someone on here is trying to convince me of a way of thinking, I’m going to respond to what they’re saying.

But I’ll flip that question on you, because I’ve seen it come up a few times in the last few months and I find it to be an interesting question.

Why do any of of us post? We don’t make the decision. We’re not a board of governors. They don’t care what we think.

For that matter, why do we post on other subjects? Why do we have opinions on anything?

 

[Tawnos]

It literally is. Most people arguing to sign Panarin say we can't wait until our most talented kids (Kakko, Chytil, Kravtsov, K'Andre, Lundkvist, Jets pick, etc) are no longer teens, and are at the start of their prime because no UFA or trade target like Panarin will be available around the time Kakko, et al are at least 22-25 years old. That argument is exposed as a lie when people also demand every other big name rumored to be available.

There's also the idea that we need vets to lead the kids, but that one is exposed by not wanting someone like Callahan: a hard worker who understands the game and was our team captain. Likewise, the desire to get rid of Staal even if it means paying a cap penalty for 4 years despite him being an upstanding guy who wore a letter and has been part of this org for nearly a decade and a half. Guys like Cally and Staal are perfect as leaders for the kids, but they do not help the Rangers go from 14th in the East to 10th, so f 'em.

No they aren't. Literally, this is just what you think people are saying.

 

[Leetch3]

Why do any of of us post?

I'm going with being dumb and not wanting to do more important things...especially when posting from work

 

[Bob Richards]

Why do any of of us post? We don’t make the decision. We’re not a board of governors. They don’t care what we think.

For that matter, why do we post on other subjects? Why do we have opinions on anything?

I'm ONLINE...............therefore I AM

-René Descartes

 

[JESSEWENEEDTOCOOK]

Why do we even exist anyway

forget posts

this is getting existential up in here

 

[Edge]

Why does HF even exist?

What is an Edge? Exactly? What does it mean?

Whhhhhyyyyyyy?

 

[Calad]

It literally is. Most people arguing to sign Panarin say we can't wait until our most talented kids (Kakko, Chytil, Kravtsov, K'Andre, Lundkvist, Jets pick, etc) are no longer teens, and are at the start of their prime because no UFA or trade target like Panarin will be available around the time Kakko, et al are at least 22-25 years old. That argument is exposed as a lie when people also demand every other big name rumored to be available.

There's also the idea that we need vets to lead the kids, but that one is exposed by not wanting someone like Callahan: a hard worker who understands the game and was our team captain. Likewise, the desire to get rid of Staal even if it means paying a cap penalty for 4 years despite him being an upstanding guy who wore a letter and has been part of this org for nearly a decade and a half. Guys like Cally and Staal are perfect as leaders for the kids, but they do not help the Rangers go from 14th in the East to 10th, so f 'em.

I see you haven't stopped using your straw mans to make a point. Worry about your own opinions and not what everyone else is thinking and maybe people will take you more seriously.

 

[HFsNumber1Heel]

Once again with Trouba..no one has provided a realistic package. DQ likes Buch and seems to be getting the most out of him. give up on Anderson already? They're not getting him for Pionk/Vesey/Namestnikov and a 2nd.

Trouba is not even McD from 2011-12---2014-15. He's had one year where he reached his potential on a stacked Winnipeg team that went to the WCF. He's more like a really good #3.

 

[Tawnos]

Exactly, now is the time to find these things out. So let’s do that this year.

Yeah, we can be too careful. That is a legit concern. But we haven’t gotten to that point yet, because we haven’t even seen what we have. We’re not talking about June 2021, and being cautious with Andersson, Chytil, ADA and a group of players who are 22-27. A large chunk of our so-called future barely has one foot in the NHL, if they’ve ever even seen NHL ice.

Let’s see what they’ve got and then go from there. Thrilled if they succeed. If they’re not ready, we’ve got Shattenkirk and Smith who can take shifts on the right and eat minutes, however painfully. But the kids will get more time to develop.

If a year from now we’re still not seeing progress like we expect, then we adjust and do what we have to.

I’m not saying we need to be in nursery mode until 2023. But can we at least get these kids into their second full seasons and onto the ice for the first time before we start talking mega signings and mega trades and $20 million in contracts?

I don’t think that’s an ultra conservative approach.

I think it is, mostly because I think it's possible to anticipate things and it's possible to simultaneously both find these things out and improve the long-term outlook of the team from the outside.

 

[NYRFANMANI]

No to Callahan. Just don't. His time here is long gone.

No to trading Kreider. Would be the ultimate dagger to the heart of the team.

No to trying to acquire Trouba. Would just simply cost too much, in trade assets and cap-hit later. Just look at the Skinner madness.

*What exactly would we be adding to Chytil get a Seth Jones caliber d-man, lmao. I don't what trade value people pin on FC, but it ain't nowhere close to getting that kind of player back without adding significantly.

I will trust the FO to continue making SMART MOVES and not take on more bad contracts. I will pray the Devils pick Hughes.

Then comes FA. Haven't looked much into other options than Panarin. No way we should touch Douchy, EK47 and other big name free agents.

 

[Beacon]

No they aren't. Literally, this is just what you think people are saying.

Literally what people say. It may not be your argument, and I dont know what yours is (what is it?), but literally 100% of the responses to "why cant we wait until Kakko and others are at least 22-23?" is that 1) there will not be someone like that available; 2) no comparison to past UFAs can be made because nobody else of his age and caliber was available before.

 

[Edge]

I think it is, mostly because I think it's possible to anticipate things and it's possible to simultaneously both find these things out and improve the long-term outlook of the team from the outside.

I generally agree with you. I think the difference might be when we feel comfortable with the accuracy of what we anticipate.

Speaking for myself, I’m not quite there yet. Do I feel we can do it at this point? Yes, we can. Do I feel we should do it at this point? No, not really.

I’d like us to have a little more evidence first. And I know that runs the risk of potentially closing certain doors that are open now. Personally, I am okay with that risk.

I don’t love that risk. I wish we were faced with these same decisions exactly one year from now.
It’s one of the reasons I am more agreeable to visiting a Trouba option as an UFA. But I can’t change that, so I take a deep breath and accept the risk.

Whether it’s Panarin or Trouba, the irony is that I am not inherently opposed to the concept.

 

[pld459666]

Start thinking Buch, start thinking ADA and start thinking that 20th overall pick.

Not ready for that just yet.

Do not believe hes the type of defender we break off three assets for.

 

[Beacon]

One train of thought is go almost entirely with youth, rely on that youth in most top6 and top4 positions and have some decent character vets to help them along.

Zero people said that. Zero. In fact, everyone calling for a rebuild the proper way explicitly says that we need vets like Zibanejad, Staal, etc.

It is the people trying to sign/acquire every big name out there who call on the dumping of our vets because they think rookies can be plugged into the top-6 immediately to play alongside Panarin, EK, Trouba. The people who have Kakko Zibanejad Panarin, Kravtsov Lias/Howden Chytil as our top-6 are the ones looking to sign UFAs, which only further exposes their lack of hockey knowledge because not only do they want UFAs for an unready team, they dont even get that teens need time to bake.

 

[bobbop]

It literally is. Most people arguing to sign Panarin say we can't wait until our most talented kids (Kakko, Chytil, Kravtsov, K'Andre, Lundkvist, Jets pick, etc) are no longer teens, and are at the start of their prime because no UFA or trade target like Panarin will be available around the time Kakko, et al are at least 22-25 years old. That argument is exposed as a lie when people also demand every other big name rumored to be available.

There's also the idea that we need vets to lead the kids, but that one is exposed by not wanting someone like Callahan: a hard worker who understands the game and was our team captain. Likewise, the desire to get rid of Staal even if it means paying a cap penalty for 4 years despite him being an upstanding guy who wore a letter and has been part of this org for nearly a decade and a half. Guys like Cally and Staal are perfect as leaders for the kids, but they do not help the Rangers go from 14th in the East to 10th, so f 'em.

You might want to choose a word other than lie.

Hockey teams have more than one leader. I'm perfectly fine taking Callahan as long as the pot is sweet enough.

You seem perfectly content with having another lousy season. Read my signature line and take it to heart.