Banking on a lottery system that has seen teams jump into the top 3 the last 3-5 years is no plan. Its a complete gamble while setting your current kids to be developed in a piss poor environment.
Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part XLIV
- Thread starter Gardner McKay
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kinger8998
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NEVER said tank openly. were giving young guys time to develop instead of forcing things through possibly crippling contracts. sure, under this theory we arent actively trying to make the playoffs, but were utilising our cap space as a strength while still supporting our young players with proper veteran support. a product of that is a great draft pick, in a fantastic draft.
im sorry but just kakko/kravtsov and if you want to include him zibanejad wont win us a cup. 2020 draft could go long way to fixing that
kinger8998
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I think that the environment that Quinn has installed is just fine. The kids were in the fight for the entire season. No one quit. Having a veteran leadership group that involves ZBad, Kreider, Henke and Staal helps to ensure that.
There is always a fine line. But yes, no need to force young players into roles that they are not ready for. And no need to clog up future sap space. Continue to play hard and stay the course. The 2020 draft is appearing to rival the fabled 2003 one. A lottery pick and another first rounder would be fantastic for the rebuild and signal that it is now ready to move into a new phase.
Off Sides
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I'm not sure we know what the rules are for that.
https://www.nbcsports.com/washingto...nvestigates-brooks-orpiks-trade-buyout-and-re
DutchShamrock
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No, no. It's cool. A 40 year old with full contract control is going to accept a trade from a cup contender to a lottery team. Then we are going to circumvent the cap with a buyout. And no one will suspect a thing when he re-signs in Toronto.
Amazing Kreiderman
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Washington did it with Orpik. There's precedent. It's within the rules of the CBA
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The Orpik thing seems to have flow under the "maybe" it was a coincidence so the NHL allowed it, not like they could undo a trade or buyout they already approved or not let him sign a new contracts.
Any Marleau deal is going to raise flags right from the get go.
Then again the NHL let's shady things slide often enough I'd never say never.
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TheTakedown
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There's no recourse there... Ottawa is not the place for her to be considering all the shit that happened
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Long term contracts with dummy years at their ends were allowed too, the NHL warned the teams not to do so, then they changed the rules and added recapture penalties. They even took away a Devils 1st round pick before they gave it back.
Not that the recapture punishments will ever be metered out given LTIR instead, yet we never hear about the shady moves the NHL prevented, only the ones they allowed.
If they think they can prove the moves constitute cap circumvention, they do have general language in the CBA that allows them to punish, whether they would ever use it or try to prove it or not seems to lean they would not. Yet not so sure I'd want to be the team tempting them to.
Amazing Kreiderman
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With there being precedent, I just don't see the NHL punishing a move like this. WSH traded Grubauer and Orpik to COL, Orpik was then bought out and signed with WSH for 1m
SA16
Sixstring
And they made a mistake allowing that obvious circumvention to stand. And then made a statement they were not happy about it and would closely review any similar deals. Just because they let it happen once doesn't mean they will again.
I wouldn't even buy him out if we traded for him. Just then turn around and swing a deal to someone else while retaining 50% after he nullifies his NTC.
when picking top 2 the only level that matters to me is can you build a stanley cup contender around the guy...3 cups in 6 years says kane is at that level. matthews hasn't won but i think he is as well.
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There was precedence for the Kovalchuk contract too, it broke no rules within the CBA, the NHL did reject it and did punish the Devils.
NHL rejects Kovalchuk deal with Devils
That is not to say the NHL would do anything, they let those contracts slide for a long time too before they decided enough was enough. And then they did give the Devils a pick back. So it's not like I'm saying the NHL would never allow it, or that the punishment would be meaningful, just that it's a risky game should the NHL have already warned against it, which it at least appears they have.
Its important that there is no collusion. I.e. I think its good if Toronto is in a position to be able to say 'Hey, (i) we had our exit talk with Marleau, only discussed the recent season and his play and his off-season plans, after that we did exchange a single word with him, before he had become a UFA after NYR bought him out, and (ii) we asked what NYR would want to take Marleau's contract. They gave us a price, and it was acceptable to us. At no point did we discuss what NYR's intentions for Marleau were.'
In short, its one thing to use an option available in the CBA even if the result might not gain several objects of the CBA. It have to be extreme for Bettman to be able to shut down something just for going against the spirit of the CBA. But you can never cooperate with someone else to try to get benefits solely from how the CBA is worded.
For example, in the expansion draft all teams must make available players with a certain amount of experience. If you solely trade for some worthless guy, that happens to fill the criteria, you are going against the spirit of those rules. But its allowed within the wording so its OK. But you cannot agree with a team that 'hey, we will borrow this bum of yours that never will be selected for a pick and trade him back to you right after the draft', because that is collusion. You cooperate to circumvent something.
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The tricky thing with the Marleau buyout move is that the NHL has to prove that the teams conspired to circumvent the cap. If the Rangers simply bought Marleau out, leaving him as a free agent, they'd be violating his CBA rights if they prevented him from re-signing with Toronto. It's an extremely slippery slope from a rules/enforcement perspective.
Gardner McKay
RIP, Jimmy.
There is no way for me to write this without it coming off as snarky - but please know that is NOT my intention.
Who are you to make that kind of judgement?
The New York LOVE free agency. Look at the Yankees situation. They were pointing to the Yankees and the winter of 2018-19. When the Yankees made those trades at the 2016 deadline, everyone said wait until the winter of Bryce and Manny. The Yankees were signing one or both of the players. Cashman didn't want any part of paying Harper. The Yankees tried to rent Machado at the deadline. They brought Machado into NY one day last winter. Everyone said this is it. They never made him a formal offer. They told him we would be willing to go a certain level but the player wanted at least 10 years and $30M per. Machado never considered the Yankees "offer". Machado waited until spring training to sign and Yankee fans held out hope the Yankees would reconsider and give Manny $300M. When Manny signed with SD, they said we will sign Arenado next winter. He got 8 years/$260M to stay in Colorado.
The Yankees don't need Machado. They are a first place team with 1/2 of their team injured. Machado has 9 home runs with 1/3 of the season completed. The Yankees have enough high caliber position players when everyone is healthy. The Philly fans are already booing Harper with his 9 home runs and .227 batting average. $330M for that guy.
Same thing with the Rangers. They don't need any free agents. This year or two years from now.
Panarin won't be worth his next contract. He won't put up the numbers to justify the cost of the contract.
The Yankees don't need Machado. They are a first place team with 1/2 of their team injured. Machado has 9 home runs with 1/3 of the season completed. The Yankees have enough high caliber position players when everyone is healthy. The Philly fans are already booing Harper with his 9 home runs and .227 batting average. $330M for that guy.
Same thing with the Rangers. They don't need any free agents. This year or two years from now.
Panarin won't be worth his next contract. He won't put up the numbers to justify the cost of the contract.
DutchShamrock
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They allowed it then said this is borderline and we will investigate this closely in the future. The back diving contracts were approved and precedent was set until they weren't cool. Musical chairs stopped and the devils violated the CBA.
The NHL has made enough comments about it that we can assume it's going to be judged stringently.
But I still don't see how we even get past step 1 of Marleau accepting a trade to anywhere except San Jose.
NYR Viper
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I mean, why wouldn't the Rangers want to eat Marleau's cap hit to bring in a player like Kapanen or Johansson? Buying him out makes sense as well as they don't want him taking up a spot from a young player. Whether he gs back to Toronto or retires is not their concern. Their only goal is adding a good young player.
DutchShamrock
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Look, the big difference between Orpik and Marleau is the NMC. Orpik had no protection. He was dealt away for cap reasons and Colorado got the perk of Grubauer for taking his contract on. Orpik had no say.
Marleau has the trade protection. A conversation is inherent because he has to waive. The last conversation isn't going to be an exit interview. It's going to be Dubas asking if he is willing to go to the team with the least amount of ROW as a 40 year old. He probably gets a bonus before the trade, then the base is bought out which is chump change. He is bought out immediately and then re-signs with the club that just traded him. That's suspicious.
That is too sticky. Bonuses and buyouts, waived clauses... Bettman isn't approving that. If Orpik was borderline, there is enough here to put it over the edge.
But a 40 year old player isn't waiving to leave a cup contender for a bottom team.
Marleau has the trade protection. A conversation is inherent because he has to waive. The last conversation isn't going to be an exit interview. It's going to be Dubas asking if he is willing to go to the team with the least amount of ROW as a 40 year old. He probably gets a bonus before the trade, then the base is bought out which is chump change. He is bought out immediately and then re-signs with the club that just traded him. That's suspicious.
That is too sticky. Bonuses and buyouts, waived clauses... Bettman isn't approving that. If Orpik was borderline, there is enough here to put it over the edge.
But a 40 year old player isn't waiving to leave a cup contender for a bottom team.
whether not the league would let the leafs re-sign marleau would be toronto's problem. there is no issue on our end
NYR Viper
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Unless there is an inherent understanding between the Leafs and the player that they will re-sign him once bought out I don't see how the league can enforce anything. They may want to close that loophole in the next round of negotiations but for now it's open. If Marleau is bought out, he can go anywhere he pleases. If he wants to go back to Toronto so be it. Perhaps another team swoops in with a better offer
Thirty One
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Yeah, the issue would be whether they would want to make the deal with us and expose themselves to that risk. It's no issue anyways, as long as they don't agree to a new contract prior to trading him.
If he's willing to waive his NTC to get bought out by a non-contender, I don't think Toronto has to pay too heavily to get rid of him, definitely not Johnsson or Kapanen. After July 1, he's only due $2.75 million in real dollars. Ottawa might pay them for an opportunity to take on a cap hit of $6.25 million, with a cash commitment of less than half of that.
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