Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part XIV

[Trxjw]

Another level take on the moves. But I don't know how to marry that to Quinn's recent statements about merit. You earn your playing time as long as it doesn't disrupt lines I probably won't keep intact through a full game? This is a blend of meritocracy within a hierarchy?

Or he threw out those merit statements when he benched Staal because it sounded good. Bottom line is Quinn will deploy the 18 skaters that will give them the best chance to win that night. I'm not supporting or attacking that stance. I just wonder if that is the best way to develop the youngest team in the league.

Well in terms of defense, I think you can sort of work it out like this: Skjei is actually starting to show signs of improvement, so he's likely not a candidate to sit. Hajek has been up and down for sure, but he's also stapled to Trouba, so does Quinn want to skate Staal with Trouba? I doubt it, so Quinn almost has to sit Lindgren by default and give Staal/Fox cushy minutes.

Up front is where it gets sort of murky, which is part of why I think there's something else going on with the Andersson dynamic. Either the coaches are banging on him for doing -- or not doing -- something really specific, or there's something else at play here. I've often said that Quinn seems to realize that some guys improve by continuing to play, while others improve by sitting. Pionk and DeAngelo are the prime examples of that and Pionk is showing in Winnipeg that he's a much better player than he was given credit for here. Howden seems to get the Pionk treatment, but I really don't know what to make of Andersson. He hasn't been given any sort of opportunity to move up the lineup, but for the life of me I cannot figure out if that's due to the lack of merit, or because something else is going on.

Overall, I can't really complain about how Quinn has developed anyone, except for Andersson. So while it's a small tenure for Quinn, it still begs the question: What's different about Lias? I've also been of the opinion that if the Rangers had Howden in the mix in June of 2017 instead of February of 2018, then perhaps Andersson isn't the pick at #7. I know, "BPA and stick to the list," but something feels off here.

 

[ZiGOODejad]

That would be dumb considering he's been playing very well as of late.

IMO he’s hasn’t been that well.

 

[Edge]

Yeah, I generally approve of what Quinn does, and his approach to handling players. Last season, my quibbles were with over-using Pionk and under-utilizing Andersson. Maybe using Shattenkirk a bit differently.

Whatever Quinn saw in Pionk (which were of course the sames things that made Pionk a commodity coming out of college) seem to be on full display in Winnipeg this year. So, maybe he was right on Pionk, and the problem was something else here? Maybe he's right on Andersson, too.

I don't know. It seems like how they utilize him, it's different than other young players. Some young guys have seemingly been spoon-fed minutes even when they're struggling. Of course there have been benchings and reductions in role for those guys, but with Lias, it just seems like he never really got any type of sustained chance. Which is what I just don't get about it all. You've got a Pionk or a Howden or a Chytil not really demanding a significant role based on their play, yet they got it, anyway. It's like the team really wanted those guys to succeed. With Lias, it doesn't seem like they really want him to succeed (I know they do, it's just hard to actually see the plan for him).

One of my biggest gripes is that I don’t feel like he’s being put in positions to succeed and his margin for error is painfully thin.

If I felt he was getting those chances, and not doing what’s been asked relative to others in that same situation, I’d be a bit more understanding.

 

[Shesterkybomb]

One of my biggest gripes is that I don’t feel like he’s being put in positions to succeed and his margin for error is painfully thin.

If I felt he was getting those chances, and not doing what’s been asked relative to others in that same situation, I’d be a bit more understanding.

It's likely that they feel this is as big of a role he can handle at this point in his career. He is only 20 what's the rush?

 

[duhmetreE]

The only thing I can think of, management want to specifically hone and improve the defensive skillset. Molding him into that 'shutdown' option

Neglecting any distractions that may come from offense... hence Haley and Smith as linemates

 

[Ghost of jas]

Well in terms of defense, I think you can sort of work it out like this: Skjei is actually starting to show signs of improvement, so he's likely not a candidate to sit. Hajek has been up and down for sure, but he's also stapled to Trouba, so does Quinn want to skate Staal with Trouba? I doubt it, so Quinn almost has to sit Lindgren by default and give Staal/Fox cushy minutes.

Up front is where it gets sort of murky, which is part of why I think there's something else going on with the Andersson dynamic. Either the coaches are banging on him for doing -- or not doing -- something really specific, or there's something else at play here. I've often said that Quinn seems to realize that some guys improve by continuing to play, while others improve by sitting. Pionk and DeAngelo are the prime examples of that and Pionk is showing in Winnipeg that he's a much better player than he was given credit for here. Howden seems to get the Pionk treatment, but I really don't know what to make of Andersson. He hasn't been given any sort of opportunity to move up the lineup, but for the life of me I cannot figure out if that's due to the lack of merit, or because something else is going on.

Overall, I can't really complain about how Quinn has developed anyone, except for Andersson. So while it's a small tenure for Quinn, it still begs the question: What's different about Lias? I've also been of the opinion that if the Rangers had Howden in the mix in June of 2017 instead of February of 2018, then perhaps Andersson isn't the pick at #7. I know, "BPA and stick to the list," but something feels off here.

What has always struck me as being off about that selection was, if you remember, the retiring scout was allowed to announce the selection of Lias, and was vociferously in favor of the pick.

 

[Shesterkybomb]

But tell me this:

Okay, maybe Lias sucks and deserves fourth line minutes. Fine. But there have been games where we've gotten NO offense from the top-9. NONE. Wouldn't you at least TRY Lias in a top-nine role to see if it gets the line going?

As I said before, maybe this is the management team and coaching staff trying to not put the kid in the deep end of the pool before he learns to swim. He's 20, hes got tons of time to figure it out and I feel Quinn knows he is a much better player with heart that you win with but they cant risk messing up his development by putting him in a situation he may not be ready for. The same process that helped Chytil, Hajek, Lindgren and Buchnevich become better players is at work here imo. Kakko is going through this as well as the easy thing would be to put him on the 1st line but with that comes a ton of pressure to produce and I feel Quinn is gonna use that 1st line rw spot as a doggie treat for Kakko, play well on the 3rd line for the first period or two and we will give you some 1st line action later in the game.

 

[FIRE DRURY]

where’s the weights?

The chauffeurs carry those for you upon request. They'll even do reps for you.

It's likely that they feel this is as big of a role he can handle at this point in his career. He is only 20 what's the rush?

How do we know he can't handle a bigger role when we haven't given him the opportunity?

Lias is like a pinch hitter who only gets opportunities once in awhile when nobody is on base and there are 2 outs. I get that he's young and still developing, but I don't think playing 10 minutes a night between 2 players who are black holes offensively is the best thing for his development.

He should be playing 15+ minutes a night in all situations. Play him in Hartford if you're not going to give him a legit opportunity here.

 

[duhmetreE]

Well, at least everyone has grown from sh!tting on Lias to sh!tting on Quinn

 

[Shesterkybomb]

The chauffeurs carry those for you upon request. They'll even do reps for you.



How do we know he can't handle a bigger role when we haven't given him the opportunity?

Lias is like a pinch hitter who only gets opportunities once in awhile when nobody is on base and there are 2 outs. I get that he's young and still developing, but I don't think playing 10 minutes a night between 2 players who are black holes offensively is the best thing for his development.

He should be playing 15+ minutes a night in all situations. Play him in Hartford if you're not going to give him a legit opportunity here.

Practice time, in game situations to date, confidence etc etc. All things we can only speculate on but the coaching staff see day to day. Honestly if Lias was drafted in the 3rd round nobody would be complaining about his icetime. You have to be able to separate his draft number and his usage as it has nothing to do with where he is at in this point of his career.

 

[kovazub94]

...But there’s a line Gorton used with Strome that I could also see applying to a broader thought process on someone like Jost: “We didn’t take him 5th/10th overall.”...

That line was used in the context that when the trade happened they would be happy even if Strome was nothing more than a bottom line presence. He over-performed that but if we are talking Jost now, would Gorton still use this line?

 

[FIRE DRURY]

Practice time, in game situations to date, confidence etc etc. All things we can only speculate on but the coaching staff see day to day. Honestly if Lias was drafted in the 3rd round nobody would be complaining about his icetime. You have to be separate his draft number and his usage as it has nothing to do with where he is at in this point of his career.

I don't care if Lias was drafted in the 4th round. The thing that a lot of people have been confused with, is how Quinn has such a tight leash around Andersson and practically no leash around Howden.

I agree Lias had a crappy game against Ottawa. If a coach wants to make an example of him, so be it. I have no problem holding players accountable.

What I question is why hasn't he held Howden accountable for the sloppy play we've seen from him numerous times this young season? We all know he's deserved to sit but Quinn seems to have double standards and it's mind boggling.

I like Quinn too. I'm just dumbfounded with the way he's handling Lias.

 

[LokiDog]

Practice time, in game situations to date, confidence etc etc. All things we can only speculate on but the coaching staff see day to day. Honestly if Lias was drafted in the 3rd round nobody would be complaining about his icetime. You have to be able to separate his draft number and his usage as it has nothing to do with where he is at in this point of his career.

That may be true but Lias looks like an NHLer, albeit a young bottom six NHLer. Sitting him in favor of players who aren’t NHL forwards is silly. And if they feel he isn’t NHL ready than let him hone his game as a third round caliber, third line caliber AHLer where he can at least play 15-16 minutes and gain some confidence. He clearly looks better than last year but he’s been rewarded with minimal minutes and now a healthy scratch. Let’s say he was a third round pick. He has the right attitude, he clearly worked hard in the off season, he can’t be feeling very confident with the handling he’s getting. People expect him to make plays with the puck but he’s probably afraid that if he tries something other than dump and grind he’s going to be playing 5-6 minutes instead of the 9 he’s been getting. Confidence is a factor in these kids development and he’s still young. If he isn’t going to get a chance to play with other NHL forwards or is going to ride the pine send him down and let him get confident. He’d probably be very strong in the AHL right now, put up some points, get some minutes and maybe come back up in a couple months and be able to grab and hold onto that third C spot.

 

[Edge]

That line was used in the context that when the trade happened they would be happy even if Strome was nothing more than a bottom line presence. He over-performed that but if we are talking Jost now, would Gorton still use this line?

I think within reason, though with different expectations.

In other words, we don’t need him to be a 60+ point center, drive a line, or to justify where we took him.

If he could come in, work as a second line LW, and find chemistry and a niche with what we have, that’s great for us.

Or, if he’s less than that, it’s disappointing but not to the extent it would be in Colorado.

 

[egelband]

Fleury? Rangers can do better than that on a deal for Kreider.
If its Carolina I would be targeting any of the following: Gauthier, Kuokakken, Bokk and Toronto's 1st rounder.

In theory he could re-sign with Carolina, too. Were I JG, I’d probably first try to figure out which teams could sign Kreider long-term and play matchmaker. Get a contract extension as part of the trade.

 

[effen]

One of my biggest gripes is that I don’t feel like he’s being put in positions to succeed and his margin for error is painfully thin.

If I felt he was getting those chances, and not doing what’s been asked relative to others in that same situation, I’d be a bit more understanding.

I imagine he's being asked to do a few very specific things that are primarily effort and attention based, so when he can't follow through on executing that he gets ~no leash. Makes sense to me.

 

[kovazub94]

I think within reason, though with different expectations.

In other words, we don’t him to be a 60+ point center, drive a line, or to justify where we took him.

If he could come in, work as a second line LW, and find chemistry and a niche with what we have, that’s great for us.

Or, if he’s less than that, it’s disappointing but not to the extent it would be in Colorado.

2LW is cool and actually right on point w/r/t my question. I'm just reacting to the fact that the team already has Panarin as 1LW and hoping for a better LW return to play behind him compared to Lemieux from Hayes trade.

 

[Edge]

I imagine he's being asked to do a few very specific things that are primarily effort and attention based, so when he can't follow through on executing that he gets ~no leash. Makes sense to me.

Perhaps, but I’m also not seeing much deviation or reward when he’s played stronger either. So there’s no pattern to say “do more of this, see more time”, nor is there any way I can look at some of his young peers and believe that they are magically executing what Quinn wants.

So when it comes to Andersson, I’m not see a pattern. Thus the gripe.

 

[egelband]

Andersson is an area in which I very much disagree with Quinn’s approach.

I’d also prefer to see Lias get, kind of, force fed 15 minutes a night with better wings. But I’m not gonna get upset about it. There are a ton of prospects to develop and only so many minutes.
I do question Staal playing so much but I’m glad the door has been cracked opened to him sitting. It’s progress. Hopefully Lindgren gets the majority of the games going forward.

 

[effen]

Perhaps, but I’m also not seeing much deviation or reward when he’s played stronger either. So there’s no pattern to say “do more of this, see more time”, nor is there any way I can look at some of his young peers and believe that they are magically executing what Quinn wants.

So when it comes to Andersson, I’m not see a pattern. Thus the gripe.

I think it's time based, he's gotta do 20 games or whatever on the 4th line gulag, show that he wants it, and he'll get moved up in the middle of the year. There are but so many actual explanations for this sort of behavior and we have a historical example with Chytil last year. Chytil didn't really play his way off the 4th so much as he did a buncha games there and kept trying.

 

[egelband]

Lines and rotations are not isolates, this is a team sport probably more than any other.

This isn't a video game where more playing time = more progression, but beyond that, you have a responsibility to other people on the roster not to kneecap them by blindly guys because of their age.

Yep. And also, the team got pushed around by Ottawa. This lineup change is probably a reaction to that as much as anything.

 

[Shesterkybomb]

I don't care if Lias was drafted in the 4th round. The thing that a lot of people have been confused with, is how Quinn has such a tight leash around Andersson and practically no leash around Howden.

I agree Lias had a crappy game against Ottawa. If a coach wants to make an example of him, so be it. I have no problem holding players accountable.

What I question is why hasn't he held Howden accountable for the sloppy play we've seen from him numerous times this young season? We all know he's deserved to sit but Quinn seems to have double standards and it's mind boggling.

I like Quinn too. I'm just dumbfounded with the way he's handling Lias.

I have no problem with how Howden has played, his positional play has been good. I'm not sure why everyone pits one guy vs another, Howden doesnt need to be compared to Andersson, Andersson I'm sure has been told what to do to stay in the lineup much like Howden has, it's obvious Howden is doing more of that than Andersson. I don't buy into the idea Quinn hates Lias, I feel the opposite, I think he likes him but believes he has more to give and is trying to get that out of him.

 

[effen]

Yep. And also, the team got pushed around by Ottawa. This lineup change is probably a reaction to that as much as anything.

the one time the team could have actually used a calming veteran influence in the room he wasn't there. irony can be thick and rich sometimes.

 

[FIRE DRURY]

I have no problem with how Howden has played, his positional play has been good. I'm not sure why everyone pits one guy vs another, Howden doesnt need to be compared to Andersson, Andersson I'm sure has been told what to do to stay in the lineup much like Howden has, it's obvious Howden is doing more of that than Andersson. I don't buy into the idea Quinn hates Lias, I feel the opposite, I think he likes him but believes he has more to give and is trying to get that out of him.

I think people compare Andersson to Howden because they're both young centers. One has gotten numerous prime opportunities averaging about 15 minutes a night and has 1G and 2A to show for his efforts, the other has been sandwiched between Smith and Haley and averaging 10Min a night.

When Howden has played like hot garbage, why wasn't Lias given a few shifts in place of Howden?

I don't think Quinn like him. At all.

 

[Edge]

I have no problem with scenarios resulting in variations to playing time.

I don’t have a problem with different expectations for different players.

I also don’t have a problem with accountability.

However, that accountability should strive to consistent across varying degrees of expectations and results. And even as someone who typically defends Quinn 90 percent of the time, it objectively isn’t.

It is a bit of a blind spot for him.