Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part XIV (To trade or not to trade is the question)

[JohnC]

and we’ll get Jumbo* a fake Callahan jersey

In hindsight, Jumbo’s girlfriend wasn’t a very clutch girlfriend

 

[KennyWu]

|￣￣￣￣￣￣ |
| PROVOROV |
| SUCKS. . . . . . |
|. . . . . . . . . . . . .|
| ＿＿＿＿＿__|
(\__/) ||
(•ㅅ•) ||
/ 　 づ

 

[Machinehead]

If I were a GM, you'd have a hard time convincing me to move a 1st at the deadline for anything.

"Oh boy howdy, I can lose in 7 instead of losing in 6!"

And the times it worked out, those teams were good enough to win the Cup anyway.

 

[smoneil]

Preds/Rangers Tuesday. I want Stamkos. He'd look great between Laf and Cuylle.

Panarin-Chytil-Berard
Laf-Stamkos-Cuylle

If Drury wants to cement over the cracks in the locker room he needs to extract and replace. Kreider and/or Trocheck are at least somewhat tradeable now and the Rangers have a ton of cap space to take on salary. Stamkos/JT Miller/Dylan Cozens, all strike me as acquirable top 6 guys with term on their deal. The team is not rebuilding and far from a lost cause for the season. Drury just has to man up instead of putting bandaids on.

My understanding was that Stamkos hasn't played center for a few years now. Did Nashville put him back in the middle?

 

[SA16]

Many of us would choose the opposite.

Sure, if you're willing to enjoy a potential decade of misery for the small chance to become Colorado and another chance to become Buffalo/Ottawa go right ahead.

And people would "Choose the opposite" because they think a rebuild is some guaranteed way to become a dynasty when in reality it is much more likely to fail and just get you back to where you originally were or worse.

 

[JESSEWENEEDTOCOOK]

Who are you?

I’m JESSEWENEEDTOCOOK

 

[DanielBrassard]

I would like to see the defense with Ruhwedel and Vaakanainen in and Lindgren and Jones out. Replacing Trouba with Mancini/Mackey was obviously always going to be a downgrade because despite how bad people make Trouba out to be he is not as bad as they say (still a good move though given they were somehow able to get out of that contract for positive value).

I agree with all of this except for taking out zac. Removing Trouba was about creating cap space for the future not necessarily making them better right away. That ship sailed when they couldn't trade him in June.

 

[LokiDog]

If you are saying the goal is to do a complete rebuild to become a potential Stanley Cup Contender, a strategy that rarely yields results in less than 8 years, I am going to have to disagree about that being a good strategy and that being the goal.

Well, we can probably make it to 100 years and 1 cup if that’s the goal instead. I don’t want to get snarky because it’s not you I have an issue with at all. Good poster. I have simply lost all faith in this team. And as a once upon a time D1 defender, on/off youth coach and lifelong student of the game, I can’t deny that Fox’s combination of less than ideal skating and stature has always given me concerns about his longevity. Never his talent or peak ability, but how long it will last for him. My experience and intuition and observation all tell me you typically need a moderate blend of both, or an extra helping of one or the other.

I know people say it’s simply en vogue to “hate” slow skaters but realistically skating is simply so important. Look at Jason Robertson. He was never a great skater, but worked on it, improved it a good amount, had a couple great years, had foot surgery, lost a step (I’ve got the charts comparing his top/average speed and acceleration from last year/this year and it is genuinely quantifiable) and is currently playing his way out of Dallas if he can’t find a way to produce better now that he lost what little speed he had.

Fox, at no fault of his own, has been leaned on extremely heavily and because of deep playoff runs player more games, and more tough games, than 99% of players in this league. He’s not a big guy with natural physical resiliency like a Trouba or Ovie and he has had some injuries, including leg/ankle injuries. His offensive awareness and ability is still out of the his world but I don’t know how anyone can watch him and not say he looks even slower than in the past or that his foot speed has effected his defending some. Guys like Fox and Robertson, both elite talents, cannot afford to lose even a half a step in a league this fast. I am concerned that he will not remain elite for as long as we hope and that whether it’s a rebuild or retool, his reputation around the league means he is the one singular player we have who would actually get us a genuine future 1C back. The one thing we never have and the one thing even more important than a 1D.

I have a Fox jersey. I am simply trying to be pragmatic. I believe it’s reasonable to say he is a risk to decline quickly due to less than ideal size, less than ideal speed and extremely heavy usage and I don’t feel it’s insane to say he’s the one player who could actually net us THE piece that we could build a future around.

 

[Brutananadilewski]

Sure, if you're willing to enjoy a potential decade of misery for the small chance to become Colorado and another chance to become Buffalo/Ottawa go right ahead.

And people would "Choose the opposite" because they think a rebuild is some guaranteed way to become a dynasty when in reality it is much more likely to fail and just get you back to where you originally were or worse.

Whoa.

You said "guaranteed" a cup. 10 years of sucktitude but we'll get a cup out of it?

Signed!

 

[Filip Chytil]

Trading for an over the hill Stamkos would be some Dark Ages shit.

Would be a sign that Glen Sather is actually the GM and Drury is just a puppet

 

[Siddi]

Many of us would choose the opposite.

Yeah, and many of us wouldnt. Sports are supposed to be uncertain, fun, exhilarating entertainment.

If you want safe and boring, stick to sunday bingo.

 

[SA16]

I agree with all of this except for taking out zac. Removing Trouba was about creating cap space for the future not necessarily making them better right away. That ship sailed when they couldn't trade him in June.

Zac needs to watch some games for a bit and have a better understand of where to be. He plays way too aggressively like a fourth forward and the problem is he's not that great offensively. He's good. He's not some offensive dynamo. He needs to be seriously reined in and told to stop pinching and getting caught in deep because he's doing it at times where the risk/reward is very poor.

 

[Brutananadilewski]

Would be a sign that Glen Sather is actually the GM and Drury is just a puppet

Sather was actually good with trades. He sucked at FA.

 

[Boris Zubov]

Sure, if you're willing to enjoy a potential decade of misery for the small chance to become Colorado and another chance to become Buffalo/Ottawa go right ahead

This team has won once in the past 85 years. 60-75% of this board was either too young to remember 94 or wasn't even born yet. We've already traded a lifetime of misery watching this team, so at some point I'd like to see them win it all again. I'll gladly take a decade of bad teams afterward if that's the price.

 

[Machinehead]

Any scenario which guarantees a Cup is kind of foolish to discuss because like, that's not how anything works?

In the real world, you take the best team that gives you the best chance over a number of years.

 

[Filip Chytil]

Novak is good at everything.

Of course. He has 24 Grand Slams.

 

[SA16]

Well, we can probably make it to 100 years and 1 cup if that’s the goal instead. I don’t want to get snarky because it’s not you I have an issue with at all. Good poster. I have simply lost all faith in this team. And as a once upon a time D1 defender, on/off youth coach and lifelong student of the game, I can’t deny that Fox’s combination of less than ideal skating and stature has always given me concerns about his longevity. Never his talent or peak ability, but how long it will last for him. My experience and intuition and observation all tell me you typically need a moderate blend of both, or an extra helping of one or the other.

I know people say it’s simply en vogue to “hate” slow skaters but realistically skating is simply so important. Look at Jason Robertson. He was never a great skater, but worked on it, improved it a good amount, had a couple great years, had foot surgery, lost a step (I’ve got the charts comparing his top/average speed and acceleration from last year/this year and it is genuinely quantifiable) and is currently playing his way out of Dallas if he can’t find a way to produce better now that he lost what little speed he had.

Fox, at no fault of his own, has been leaned on extremely heavily and because of deep playoff runs player more games, and more tough games, than 99% of players in this league. He’s not a big guy with natural physical resiliency like a Trouba or Ovie and he has had some injuries, including leg/ankle injuries. His offensive awareness and ability is still out of the his world but I don’t know how anyone can watch him and not say he looks even slower than in the past or that his foot speed has effected his defending some. Guys like Fox and Robertson, both elite talents, cannot afford to lose even a half a step in a league this fast. I am concerned that he will not remain elite for as long as we hope and that whether it’s a rebuild or retool, his reputation around the league means he is the one singular player we have who would actually get us a genuine future 1C back. The one thing we never have and the one thing even more important than a 1D.

I have a Fox jersey. I am simply trying to be pragmatic. I believe it’s reasonable to say he is a risk to decline quickly due to less than ideal size, less than ideal speed and extremely heavy usage and I don’t feel it’s insane to say he’s the one player who could actually net us THE piece that we could build a future around.

I don't have enough time now to respond to everything but I would disagree about Fox's heavy usage. His usage is pretty low for a 1D.

31st in TOI among D this year.
26th last year
13th the year before

Among D with 25+ games played

 

[LokiDog]

I just think we should have a vision of what we want the team to be, see the pieces we have now, make informed decisions on those pieces, and aggressively pursue the vision based on what's missing and the assets we have to spend.

That vision, for most people, includes an elite defenseman, so trading away the one you already have is moving backwards.

Burning it down just because it's flammable is Sabres team building.

I agree that it includes an elite defenseman (though, even more so, it must include an elite 1C) but it is my opinion (and only that, all love here - we’re all frustrated and just spitting ideas out) that timeline also matters. Fox has never had ideal size or speed, has had injuries and has played tons of tough minutes in his career. I simply don’t believe that the timing for the team to re-shape itself into a TRUE contender will align with him still being elite. As I’ve said, for me, it isn’t burning it down because it’s flammable. It’s making a painful decision to sacrifice an elite player in his prime today in order to acquire a player who will be your elite centerpiece a couple of years down the road, and going forward. I’m sure we could smack together some pieces on the fly and be a playoff team again as early as next year. I would prefer we accept a down couple of years to build a team we genuinely believe can go all the way, and I am concerned that Fox will be exiting his elite years when that happens, thus sacrificing an elite talent today to acquire an elite talent for tomorrow. That’s just my view.

 

[Brutananadilewski]

This team has one once in the past 85 years. 60-75% of this board was either too young to remember 94 or wasn't even born yet. We've already traded a lifetime of misery watching this team, so at some point I'd like to see them win it all again. I'll gladly take a decade of bad teams afterward if that's the price.

Those 2 Giants Super Bowls seem like a lifetime ago...

With the teams this board roots for, I'm surprised half of us aren't in a penitentiary or an asylum.

 

[will1066]

Zac needs to watch some games for a bit and have a better understand of where to be. He plays way too aggressively like a fourth forward and the problem is he's not that great offensively. He's good. He's not some offensive dynamo. He needs to be seriously reined in and told to stop pinching and getting caught in deep because he's doing it at times where the risk/reward is very poor.

They all do it. To a man. Miller. Schneider. Lindgren. Gus when he was here. Trouba when he was here. And they've all gotten burned for bad pinches at least a few times. Because the forwards can't generate enough off the cycle or win puck battles to keep possession.

 

[Machinehead]

I agree that it includes an elite defenseman (though, even more so, it must include an elite 1C) but it is my opinion (and only that, all love here - we’re all frustrated and just spitting ideas out) that timeline also matters. Fox has never had ideal size or speed, has had injuries and has played tons of tough minutes in his career. I simply don’t believe that the timing for the team to re-shape itself into a TRUE contender will align with him still being elite. As I’ve said, for me, it isn’t burning it down because it’s flammable. It’s making a painful decision to sacrifice an elite player in his prime today in order to acquire a player who will be your elite centerpiece a couple of years down the road, and going forward. I’m sure we could smack together some pieces on the fly and be a playoff team again as early as next year. I would prefer we accept a down couple of years to build a team we genuinely believe can go all the way, and I am concerned that Fox will be exiting his elite years when that happens, thus sacrificing an elite talent today to acquire an elite talent for tomorrow. That’s just my view.

I think most people are on the same page as you as far as accepting a couple of down years.

Most of those people think you're overly concerned about Fox at age 28. Sometimes the guys who never had the athletic ability decline less in the ages where that ability starts to go, because they never had it. Mats Zuccarello is aging like a beautiful oak tree.

 

[Shadowtron]

Kaprisov was 135th overall.

Why can't that ever happen to us?

It does...they just happened to be goalies lol! DISREGARD...I see a few clever posters already beat me to this lol!

 

[CLW]

There should be only 4 untouchables on the roster:

1) Igor
2) Laf
3) Fox
4) Cuylle


That's it. Everyone else can be had.


Fire Drury

I wouldn't name any names until I am certain they are 100% clean of any country club taint. I don't care about the name, if they have the slightest whiff off they go, the rot has been that bad.

That said, I doubt Cuylle is infected but I'm suspicious of Laffy and Fox. Igor's always been in his own world but then again, that contract of his is ready to start to reek like stinky cheese.

 

[LokiDog]

I think most people are on the same page as you as far as accepting a couple of down years.

Most of those people think you're overly concerned about Fox at age 28. Sometimes the guys who never had the athletic ability decline less in the ages where that ability starts to go, because they never had it. Mats Zuccarello is aging like a beautiful oak tree.

That’s fine. Personally, I feel like the early signs are starting to show (in his skating, only) at this point. And I’m also rounding him up to 27 because his birthday is soon. And it isn’t simply about Fox at 28/29. We’re gonna win in that very first year after retooling? That’s what age he will be when the next window even begins. My concern is STARTING the next window of contention relying on a slow 29 year old to not get any slower or worn down physically as an undersized guy with a lot of deep playoff runs already on his body.

 

[bernmeister]

Bern, this whole thing is bonkers. It's a logic pretzel to get you to where you want to be (pretending that there is any justification for not trading Kreider).

On Kreider-- Your argument is that no team will give value because of a vague rumor about a back injury, so we shouldn't trade him because he can rehab this supposed back injury. That's absurd. Kreider has one more season left after this one. He can easily be retained down to ~$4m per. He's scored between 40 and 50 goals for the last three seasons. He's got LOADS of playoff experience, most recently playing hero-ball with the hat trick against Carolina. Teams would EASILY give up a 1st and a very good prospect for two playoff runs with Kreider.

And again--his replacement is already on the roster. Say for the sake of argument that you also move Panarin for a haul (a concept I'm not opposed to). You still have Laf, Kakko, Cuylle, Perrault, Berard, Othmann, Sykora. We are miles deep on LWers and LW prospects. It makes ZERO logical sense to hold onto Kreider unless your love for the player is blinding you.

Similarly, I think your hatred for Zib is also blinding you. I also think he's a massive problem, but he's not a moveable problem. He has a much higher cap hit and 5x the term that Kreider has. NOBODY is going to trade for Zibanejad unless he rebounds and/or has fewer years left on his contract. You thought Vancouver would take on 5 years of a bad cap hit to cover for a player being out for a MONTH? That doesn't even happen in video games. You think the Rangers, who rarely retain, will saddle themselves with a nearly $5m dead cap hit for five years? Never in a million years.

The ONLY way for the Rangers to dump Zibanejad is to hope that he'll waive his NMC, retain on his contract, and pay a premium to the other team. And...where does that leave us? With two second line centers (Trocheck and Chytil---one of whom is an injury waiting to happen) and a whole bunch of 4th line centers. Nobody trades top 6 centers. Could we get one in FA? Maybe, but with Kreider's cap hit still on the books and half of Zibanejad's cap hit still on the books, we won't be able to afford one. For the short term, it's in the team's best interest to try and fix Zibanejad. It's not because I want them to do that. I've wanted Zib gone since last season, when he had his back turned to the OT GWG against, because he took himself out of the play to complain to the ref. We just don't have any other logical choice.

In a perfect world, we would let a player like Kreider retire a Ranger. The world isn't perfect. They need to move on from as much of the old core as possible to re-stock the prospect pool for the next core (which, unlike last time, with the letter, much of the next core is already in place).

Again, it is reasonable to speculate Zib does waive if it is to VAN
and that VAN agrees to a trade fully retained for spare parts as I suggest

do that now and do it first

CK, again, there is a disconnect on yr part:
"Your argument is that no team will give value because of a vague rumor about a back injury, so we shouldn't trade him because he can rehab this supposed back injury. That's absurd. Kreider has one more season left after this one. He can easily be retained down to ~$4m per. He's scored between 40 and 50 goals for the last three seasons. He's got LOADS of playoff experience, most recently playing hero-ball with the hat trick against Carolina. Teams would EASILY give up a 1st and a very good prospect for two playoff runs with Kreider."

There are laws about disclosure of private medical info, so confirmation is not possible, but are you telling me CKs own representations are a lie?
And if teams factor that in, yes they will still pay a good, but not too heavy price

my pt is we should give CK mo time to heal, and see what we have after get rid of the others first

I am final on that
It is reasonable to spec