Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part XIV (To trade or not to trade is the question)

bernmeister

Registered User
Jun 11, 2010
29,053
4,410
Da Big Apple
I could see Dru making a deal with Van. I could see Van having interest in KK. Maybe something along the lines of KK for Hoglander (IIRC wants out of Van) & Patterson(the d prosopect). Tho NYR needs would prob be more along the lines of Ratu & Willinder.
just make the deal I said asap
zib haolf retained
for
Juusen Raty, Forbot + cap dump Descharnais

raty is decent 3rd pivot w/upside
Juulsen helps now
others are stopgap
and yes we eat half of zib = unavoidable, at least we dumped the other half now

You can't trade Fox before Lindgren. They've never even tried a big guy who can skate with him for any prolonged period. It's cutting you nose off to spite your face. Fantilli and MacTavish are not guarantees.
Sure you can
and if we are being objective,
Fox gets good offers now for win now teams or impatient club like Sens

no one wants Lindy, we have to pay to remove


The whole point of going all in on a rebuild is to get foundational pieces. Trading foundational pieces to do that, unless they're a year or two from their contracts, is counterproductive.
First sentence yes, at least conceptually
Second sentence = it depends.
Not all foundational pieces are equal.
LaF was a foundational piece and we wanted to move him b'c he was subpar b'c of skating.
But there was reasonable hope that even if a yr +, that could be overcome, which has happened.
LaF = a piece that had long term upside, even when there was a gamble on his skating

Fox, otoh, was not a good skater to begin with, has worsened, and will continue to get worse.
Smart move is to sell high now
Sens should give us
Kleven + Pinto + Grieg + better pick way down the road
for
Fox and lesser pick down the road
 

Machinehead

HFNYR MVP
Jan 21, 2011
149,210
130,025
NYC
just make the deal I said asap
zib haolf retained
for
Juusen Raty, Forbot + cap dump Descharnais

raty is decent 3rd pivot w/upside
Juulsen helps now
others are stopgap
and yes we eat half of zib = unavoidable, at least we dumped the other half now


Sure you can
and if we are being objective,
Fox gets good offers now for win now teams or impatient club like Sens

no one wants Lindy, we have to pay to remove



First sentence yes, at least conceptually
Second sentence = it depends.
Not all foundational pieces are equal.
LaF was a foundational piece and we wanted to move him b'c he was subpar b'c of skating.
But there was reasonable hope that even if a yr +, that could be overcome, which has happened.
LaF = a piece that had long term upside, even when there was a gamble on his skating

Fox, otoh, was not a good skater to begin with, has worsened, and will continue to get worse.
Smart move is to sell high now
Sens should give us
Kleven + Pinto + Grieg + better pick way down the road
for
Fox and lesser pick down the road
Lafreniere still isn't the caliber of playing I'm talking about, so that comparison is inert.

There isn't a combination of fliers and beans you could post that sounds appealing for Adam Fox.
 

Mikachu93

Formerly MacTruck
Aug 1, 2010
3,218
1,566
NY
just make the deal I said asap
zib haolf retained
for
Juusen Raty, Forbot + cap dump Descharnais

raty is decent 3rd pivot w/upside
Juulsen helps now
others are stopgap
and yes we eat half of zib = unavoidable, at least we dumped the other half now


Sure you can
and if we are being objective,
Fox gets good offers now for win now teams or impatient club like Sens

no one wants Lindy, we have to pay to remove



First sentence yes, at least conceptually
Second sentence = it depends.
Not all foundational pieces are equal.
LaF was a foundational piece and we wanted to move him b'c he was subpar b'c of skating.
But there was reasonable hope that even if a yr +, that could be overcome, which has happened.
LaF = a piece that had long term upside, even when there was a gamble on his skating

Fox, otoh, was not a good skater to begin with, has worsened, and will continue to get worse.
Smart move is to sell high now
Sens should give us
Kleven + Pinto + Grieg + better pick way down the road
for
Fox and lesser pick down the road
Retaining 4.25m on Zibanejad until the end of the world is nasty work
 

Siddi

Rangers Masochist
Mar 8, 2013
8,316
6,096
Global
And we can blame the win now crowd for this, because rather than edit here and there, they got married to this core long term
We will die with what we now live with due to listening to that crowd and not me
"We" are not making any decisions. It is not a imaginary "crowd" running the front office of the New York Rangers. What posters on this forum say have no bearing as to how the Rangers conduct business.

Seek help. I am dead serious. You need help.
 

McRanger92

Registered User
Jun 7, 2017
12,424
23,303
I have never wanted a NYR to be traded as much as i want Kreider gone. He is and always has been the captain of the country club.

It doesnt matter what other moves we make, nothing will work till he is gone.

What a way to end his Rangers tenure. Hobbled and emasculated. Clearly his back is bad he can barely skate. That better be the reason at least lol. Such as shame because he really could've been something. Not taking the captaincy was a red flag. He's a team Hall of Famer but I'll just remember him crying after 4 ECF losses and a Cup loss. Tough pill but its time.
 

JohnC

Registered User
Jan 26, 2013
8,783
6,767
New York
I have never wanted a NYR to be traded as much as i want Kreider gone. He is and always has been the captain of the country club.

It doesnt matter what other moves we make, nothing will work till he is gone.
I don’t really know how you can say this when we have 1 player that had notorious commitment issues (Zib) and 1 that actively dictated who he plays/played with (Panarin). No one would’ve accused Kreider of being captain of the country club in our last window.

Just admit that you don’t like the less engaged, nonchalant style of play he’s adapted since his blood clot and time spent playing with Mika.
 

Ruggs225

Registered User
Oct 15, 2007
9,391
5,850
Long Island, NY
What a way to end his Rangers tenure. Hobbled and emasculated. Clearly his back is bad he can barely skate. That better be the reason at least lol. Such as shame because he really could've been something. Not taking the captaincy was a red flag. He's a team Hall of Famer but I'll just remember him crying after 4 ECF losses and a Cup loss. Tough pill but its time.
Eh i was never a huge Kreider fan. To me he always did the same thing. Went on an extreme heater for a week or two, and then go complete milk carton for another week or two.

He never seemed to be the max effort type of guy game in and game out.
 

will1066

If you score four, you better f'n win the game
Oct 12, 2008
49,568
70,198
Kreider can still skate. Maybe he's not as fast as he used to be, but last night he flashed it on the odd man rush.
 

Peltz

Registered User
Oct 4, 2019
3,851
5,464
What a way to end his Rangers tenure. Hobbled and emasculated. Clearly his back is bad he can barely skate. That better be the reason at least lol. Such as shame because he really could've been something. Not taking the captaincy was a red flag. He's a team Hall of Famer but I'll just remember him crying after 4 ECF losses and a Cup loss. Tough pill but its time.
After Hank never winning a cup, it's easier to rip these types of band aides off now. It's time.

And I'm a Kreider fan.
 

Peltz

Registered User
Oct 4, 2019
3,851
5,464
You can’t build around 27 year old Fox. We had a chance to build around him and that build failed. If you’re building around him now, you’re building for when he is 29-30 years old and skates slower than my grandma walks. I am hands down, flat out faster than Fox on the ice and I am 38 years old. That’s not even remote hyperbole; I would bet Loki’s life on a race against Fox. Fox’s value will never be as high as it is today ever again. This is the point in his career where it begins to diminish. Building around him now would be extremely foolish. If we weren’t in the situation we’re in I wouldn’t even be discussing moving him - I generally agree with you - but the entire team needs to be rebuilt and Fox is not going to be world class WHEN the new roster is ready. If he were 24 and a better skater, it wouldn’t be a discussion. He’s turning 27, he’s had injuries, he’s been leaned on overly heavily and we’ve seen his best hockey already. I would bet my life on this. You keep calling him a foundational piece but he will not be aligned with the new timeline that this core has forced us onto. He will not be foundational when the timing is right. It isn’t his fault - it’s the rest of the teams’ but now he is positioned to waste his remaining prime years on a retooling tire fire.
I don't disagree. But the return has to be an absolute pure stud of the highest order. He's the best tradeable asset on the team by far.

Look what happened with McDonagh - he's not as good a player as Fox, but was still an absolute stud top pairing defensemen. He was arguably more important to the team at the time than Adam Fox is now.

The 1-2 punch of McDonagh and Hank meant that the team was plain old hard to score on. And that trade was a total loss in my opinion.

If Fox goes, it has to be for someone who is a star on the upswing from a contender that is a 1D short of a stanley cup. I'm not really aware of a team that fits the bill.
 
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alkurtz

Registered User
Nov 26, 2006
1,478
1,175
Charlotte, NC
We're angry and upset here but, come on, we need to step back from the ledge and look at things objectively.

What has gone wrong? An aging core, perhaps aging more quickly than we all anticipated. A star Dman whose skills have always existed on a razor's edge due to skating issues and now, even in his mid-twenties has seemed to lose just enough to reduce his effectiveness.

More so: the failure of our youth movement. We were so fortunate to draft two years running at the very top of the draft. I think KK is, and will be, a fine player, but nowhere near what you hope from a #2 OA. Laffy, too: he might end up a consistent 30+30 player at some point but he is not that now, will never be the franchise winger we hoped for with a #1 OA, does not seem capable of elevating his play to carry a team. KM: going backwards. BS: OK, will likely get better, but might not have the ceiling of a #1 D. Whose fault is this? KK and Laf were everyone's choices. Has it been our developmental system? I don't think so. Sometimes it's the player.

Horrendous front office management of the roster.

Coaching? How many different styles have been tried? Don't think it is Laviolette's fault though he might have quickly, too quickly, used up his time.

Face it: this team isn't that good. Even last year, with all the last second heroics: that is not a statistically viable way to play. Just like one-run wins in baseball seem to balance out from one season to another. All those wins masked slowly developing problems that have worsened this year. You might say that is the mark of a good team....I'm not so sure.

One thing I reject is the whole "country club" blame many of you like to bring up. Frankly, that's ridiculous. The Rangers treating their players right does not make them play worse or have any impact whatsoever on the team.

The team we saw last night reminded me of a "dark ages" team. For long (long) time fans, it reminded me of teams we iced at the end of the Francis era.

There is no simple answer here. I agree that we need to be open to trading anyone with value for future value. There is no short-term solution that will quickly improve this team. Trading our problems for other team's problems is not the answer.

Fire Drury? I'm OK with that.

But this happens in sports: good teams fall apart. This is a perfect storm: an aging core and young players not progressing. Of course I'm upset. But one thing you can say: it's never boring being a Ranger fan. In fact, this whole thing is fascinating. But, let's leave the rancor out and examine things realistically. We all have our opinion. But opinion should be backed up, not with emotion, but clarity. It's going to be a long season. It is going to be ugly. It might be ugly for a few years, especially in a cap era where your options are limited. Our prospect pool is limited. There is no simple solution, no knee-jerk answer here. Our personnel decisions and day-to-day lineups need to be adjusted. But, simply put: we don't have enough talent on this team to be anything more that a marginal playoff team, if that. I don't know what else to say. But, I'm not going to be angry at players. Yes, the game Saturday was a disgrace. I don't mind losing as long as there is effort. This team, right now, is "sick" and there are no short-term solutions. No radical solutions. I've readjusted my expectations from thinking we can win every game to expecting us to lose every game. I will take my good moments where and as they come.
 

LokiDog

Get pucks deep. Get pucks to the net. And, uh…
Sep 13, 2018
12,183
24,581
Dallas
If he was 33 then yeah I could get behind it. He’s 26, signed long term, and there’s nothing coming to replace him

The best defensive prospect they have is the kid they drafted this summer. Who on the broadcast, they said will top out as a very good 3/4 defenseman. Oh, and he’s allergic to offense

I’m not trading Fox for magic beans, I’m sorry

You’ll have to tell me where I really advocated for magic beans though. McTavish, Carlsson, Fantili, Johnson, Stankoven… these are all NHLers who are between 20-22 with sky high potential at the position we have literally never had a kid that age at. And they’re just examples, but the point would be to accept a couple of disappointing years of growing pains with a new core. Last year’s SCF featured 3 top 10 centers. How many top 10 D? How many top 5 goalies? We need our Draisailt or Barkov (we won’t get a McDavid) more than we need Fox or Shesterkin.
 

SA16

Sixstring
Aug 25, 2006
14,008
13,861
Long Island
We're angry and upset here but, come on, we need to step back from the ledge and look at things objectively.

What has gone wrong? An aging core, perhaps aging more quickly than we all anticipated. A star Dman whose skills have always existed on a razor's edge due to skating issues and now, even in his mid-twenties has seemed to lose just enough to reduce his effectiveness.

More so: the failure of our youth movement. We were so fortunate to draft two years running at the very top of the draft. I think KK is, and will be, a fine player, but nowhere near what you hope from a #2 OA. Laffy, too: he might end up a consistent 30+30 player at some point but he is not that now, will never be the franchise winger we hoped for with a #1 OA, does not seem capable of elevating his play to carry a team. KM: going backwards. BS: OK, will likely get better, but might not have the ceiling of a #1 D. Whose fault is this? KK and Laf were everyone's choices. Has it been our developmental system? I don't think so. Sometimes it's the player.

Horrendous front office management of the roster.

Coaching? How many different styles have been tried? Don't think it is Laviolette's fault though he might have quickly, too quickly, used up his time.

Face it: this team isn't that good. Even last year, with all the last second heroics: that is not a statistically viable way to play. Just like one-run wins in baseball seem to balance out from one season to another. All those wins masked slowly developing problems that have worsened this year. You might say that is the mark of a good team....I'm not so sure.

One thing I reject is the whole "country club" blame many of you like to bring up. Frankly, that's ridiculous. The Rangers treating their players right does not make them play worse or have any impact whatsoever on the team.

The team we saw last night reminded me of a "dark ages" team. For long (long) time fans, it reminded me of teams we iced at the end of the Francis era.

There is no simple answer here. I agree that we need to be open to trading anyone with value for future value. There is no short-term solution that will quickly improve this team. Trading our problems for other team's problems is not the answer.

Fire Drury? I'm OK with that.

But this happens in sports: good teams fall apart. This is a perfect storm: an aging core and young players not progressing. Of course I'm upset. But one thing you can say: it's never boring being a Ranger fan. In fact, this whole thing is fascinating. But, let's leave the rancor out and examine things realistically. We all have our opinion. But opinion should be backed up, not with emotion, but clarity. It's going to be a long season. It is going to be ugly. It might be ugly for a few years, especially in a cap era where your options are limited. Our prospect pool is limited. There is no simple solution, no knee-jerk answer here. Our personnel decisions and day-to-day lineups need to be adjusted. But, simply put: we don't have enough talent on this team to be anything more that a marginal playoff team, if that. I don't know what else to say. But, I'm not going to be angry at players. Yes, the game Saturday was a disgrace. I don't mind losing as long as there is effort. This team, right now, is "sick" and there are no short-term solutions. No radical solutions. I've readjusted my expectations from thinking we can win every game to expecting us to lose every game. I will take my good moments where and as they come.

What effectiveness has Adam Fox lost? Just wondering. He has basically the exact same pts/60 he's had for the last four years despite no 5v5 goals, the best CF%, of his career, the second best GF% of his career (by 0.05), the best xG% of his entire career. I'm not seeing a loss of effectiveness. This looks to me like the typical blaming of the best players on the team for other players shortcomings and the the typical dislike of players who aren't fast skaters.
 

Machinehead

HFNYR MVP
Jan 21, 2011
149,210
130,025
NYC
I don’t really know how you can say this when we have 1 player that had notorious commitment issues (Zib) and 1 that actively dictated who he plays/played with (Panarin). No one would’ve accused Kreider of being captain of the country club in our last window.

Just admit that you don’t like the less engaged, nonchalant style of play he’s adapted since his blood clot and time spent playing with Mika.
Kreider really wasn't bad until this year, but all of the people who have been flinging poop at him since 2015 were eventually going to be right when he declined. I hope they enjoy their poorly-earned victory lap.
 

The Crypto Guy

Registered User
Jun 26, 2017
28,565
37,469
Kreider really wasn't bad until this year, but all of the people who have been flinging poop at him since 2015 were eventually going to be right when he declined. I hope they enjoy their poorly-earned victory lap.
Last year lol. Guy has been brutal even strength for years. But grats on pumping his tires because he is a master of deflections. Cant wait till this joke is gone. Maybe he shows up again on a new team.
 
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will1066

If you score four, you better f'n win the game
Oct 12, 2008
49,568
70,198
We're angry and upset here but, come on, we need to step back from the ledge and look at things objectively.

What has gone wrong? An aging core, perhaps aging more quickly than we all anticipated. A star Dman whose skills have always existed on a razor's edge due to skating issues and now, even in his mid-twenties has seemed to lose just enough to reduce his effectiveness.

More so: the failure of our youth movement. We were so fortunate to draft two years running at the very top of the draft. I think KK is, and will be, a fine player, but nowhere near what you hope from a #2 OA. Laffy, too: he might end up a consistent 30+30 player at some point but he is not that now, will never be the franchise winger we hoped for with a #1 OA, does not seem capable of elevating his play to carry a team. KM: going backwards. BS: OK, will likely get better, but might not have the ceiling of a #1 D. Whose fault is this? KK and Laf were everyone's choices. Has it been our developmental system? I don't think so. Sometimes it's the player.

Horrendous front office management of the roster.

Coaching? How many different styles have been tried? Don't think it is Laviolette's fault though he might have quickly, too quickly, used up his time.

Face it: this team isn't that good. Even last year, with all the last second heroics: that is not a statistically viable way to play. Just like one-run wins in baseball seem to balance out from one season to another. All those wins masked slowly developing problems that have worsened this year. You might say that is the mark of a good team....I'm not so sure.

One thing I reject is the whole "country club" blame many of you like to bring up. Frankly, that's ridiculous. The Rangers treating their players right does not make them play worse or have any impact whatsoever on the team.

The team we saw last night reminded me of a "dark ages" team. For long (long) time fans, it reminded me of teams we iced at the end of the Francis era.

There is no simple answer here. I agree that we need to be open to trading anyone with value for future value. There is no short-term solution that will quickly improve this team. Trading our problems for other team's problems is not the answer.

Fire Drury? I'm OK with that.

But this happens in sports: good teams fall apart. This is a perfect storm: an aging core and young players not progressing. Of course I'm upset. But one thing you can say: it's never boring being a Ranger fan. In fact, this whole thing is fascinating. But, let's leave the rancor out and examine things realistically. We all have our opinion. But opinion should be backed up, not with emotion, but clarity. It's going to be a long season. It is going to be ugly. It might be ugly for a few years, especially in a cap era where your options are limited. Our prospect pool is limited. There is no simple solution, no knee-jerk answer here. Our personnel decisions and day-to-day lineups need to be adjusted. But, simply put: we don't have enough talent on this team to be anything more that a marginal playoff team, if that. I don't know what else to say. But, I'm not going to be angry at players. Yes, the game Saturday was a disgrace. I don't mind losing as long as there is effort. This team, right now, is "sick" and there are no short-term solutions. No radical solutions. I've readjusted my expectations from thinking we can win every game to expecting us to lose every game. I will take my good moments where and as they come.

Great post. The only thing I'll retort is even if the players should be treated right, there has been no accountability or sense of meritocracy regarding playing time and on-ice results. When that doesn't exist, complacency grows. THAT's the country club atmosphere that has been cultivated through three coaching regimes.
 
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