Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part XIII

[McRanger]

It's funny, I don't get the desire for a lunch pail type approach from Buch. I think the Rangers are just looking for more of what Buchnevich has shown capable of doing.

But I do agree that there is a lot of determining who might be a core piece, and who might be along for the ride.

I should probably have chosen my phrasing better. I dont think they want him hitting or grinding.

But I do think they want him constantly engaged to a degree that I doubt is realistic for Buchnevich and frankly rarely exists in skilled players, outside of coaches daydreams anyway.

 

[Edge]

I should probably have chosen my phrasing better. I dont think they want him hitting or grinding.

But I do think they want him constantly engaged to a degree that I doubt is realistic for Buchnevich and frankly rarely exists in skilled players, outside of coaches daydreams anyway.

But that's just it --- I think there are some on here who are setting the bar higher than Quinn is, while expecting less from Buch than Quinn does.

I honestly don't believe Quinn expects Buch to "always" be on, I think he simply expects him to be on more often.

I think sections of this board think Quinn expects Buch to always be on, not Quinn himself.

I also think Quinn has high expectations for Buch, whereas we seem to be hedging on him a little.

It's actually kind of weird because while we're defending Buch, there's also a tendency to downplay his ability. Usually it's the reverse; we up-sell a player's ability and then blast the player because he isn't meeting the expectations we've set or blaming the coach for not expecting more from him.

I'm in the camp that really doesn't believe Quinn's expectations for Buch are unreasonable.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

I should probably have chosen my phrasing better. I dont think they want him hitting or grinding.

But I do think they want him constantly engaged to a degree that I doubt is realistic for Buchnevich and frankly rarely exists in skilled players, outside of coaches daydreams anyway.

If a player proves he can score 40 goals in the NHL, hey, do what you want on the defensive side of the puck.

If not, you better damn well at least act like you're trying to disrupt the opposition in some way. Buchnevich just hasn't gotten the message. If he hasn't yet, Im not sure he ever will since it sure seems like an easy thing to commit oneself to.

 

[Nopuckluck]

I say we move Buch Zucca and Hayes quick before the market gets saturated

As far as Buchnevich goes I have never liked him as a player. Plus his I don’t give a shit facial expressions make me wanna punch him

 

[Nopuckluck]

Buchnevick

Zherdev

Both Russian.

 

[Alluckks]

Both Russian.

That was not my point at all?

 

[McRanger]

If a player proves he can score 40 goals in the NHL, hey, do what you want on the defensive side of the puck.

If not, you better damn well at least act like you're trying to disrupt the opposition in some way. Buchnevich just hasn't gotten the message. If he hasn't yet, Im not sure he ever will since it sure seems like an easy thing to commit oneself to.

There were only 8 players who scored 40 goals. Only 32 who scored 30 goals. So the bar for those who can sort-of-ignore defense is probably lower than you think.

Not that Buch is in that category. Really for guys like him, players who can put up 40+ points, you just need them to not be a defensive liability.

And until we see him actually be a liability I dont really see this as an issue.

 

[Edge]

There were only 8 players who scored 40 goals. Only 32 who scored 30 goals. So the bar for those who can sort-of-ignore defense is probably lower than you think.

Not that Buch is in that category. Really for guys like him, players who can put up 40+ points, you just need them to not be a defensive liability.

And until we see him actually be a liability I dont really see this as an issue.

I dunno, while there's not a ton of players scoring 40 goals, or even 30 these days, there's not a terrible shortage of players who can fall into that 20 goal/40 point range. So if you're going to be in that mix, I don't think you can really afford to have that be the only thing you do or to be a guy whose drive is questioned.

But even beyond that, I think Buch being a 20 goal/40 point player would be a bit of a disappointment. Frankly, I think he has the talent to be in that 25 goal/55 point range and that's ultimately where I think the push is.

I don't think even at the 25g/50+ point level there is an expectation that he resemble Adam Graves and inspire everyone with his relentless efforts. Just that the Rangers are getting as much as possible out of him.

I also don't think it's that level or bust for Buch. But now is probably the time, if ever, to see if you push him to raise his game there. If all he is the 20/20 guy, than so be it. But at least there won't be many mysteries based on "what if" scenarios.

 

[McRanger]

I dunno, while there's not a ton of players scoring 40 goals, or even 30 these days, there's not a terrible shortage of players who can fall into that 20 goal/40 point range. So if you're going to be in that mix, I don't think you can really afford to have that be the only thing you do or to be a guy whose drive is questioned.

But even beyond that, I think Buch being a 20 goal/40 point player would be a bit of a disappointment. Frankly, I think he has the talent to be in that 25 goal/55 point range and that's ultimately where I think the push is.

I don't think even at the 25g/50+ point level there is an expectation that he resemble Adam Graves and inspire everyone with his relentless efforts. Just that the Rangers are getting as much as possible out of him.

I also don't think it's that level or bust for Buch. But now is probably the time, if ever, to see if you push him to raise his game there. If all he is the 20/20 guy, than so be it. But at least there won't be many mysteries based on "what if" scenarios.

There were 30 right wings and 110 forwards who scored 20 goals and 40 points.

There were 15 right wings and 61 forwards who scored 25 goals and 50 points.

If Buchnevich can produce between that range (without being a problem defensively or some sort of locker room cancer) he's actually a pretty valuable asset. There's what, 1 or 2 maybe 3 per team?

Of course he actually needs to get to that level, and stay there. But in order to do that he needs to play. And around we go.

 

[Webster]

I think Buchnevich has a problem with authorities, he gets pissed when they yell at him. He needs to change his attitude before it's too late, this is a mental thing.

 

[Edge]

There were 30 right wings and 110 forwards who scored 20 goals and 40 points.

There were 15 right wings and 61 forwards who scored 25 goals and 50 points.

If Buchnevich can produce between that range (without being a problem defensively or some sort of locker room cancer) he's actually a pretty valuable asset. There's what, 1 or 2 maybe 3 per team?

Of course he actually needs to get to that level, and stay there. But in order to do that he needs to play. And around we go.

Never been a fan of the approach that a player only needs to play to get to the next level. I think there's more to it than that. (I know that’s not really what you’re saying.)

I think a player needs to put in the work and commitment to play, in order to play. I think you play through mistakes, you play through slumps, you play through teachable moments. But it's a not a one man band scenario either.

Players getting benched is not a foreign concept. And frankly, if Buch can't respond properly to a pair of benchings, than the odds of him getting to the next level are pretty slim --- regardless of how much he plays.

I know that's not going to be the most popular answer.

 

[FIRE DRURY]

I think Buchnevich has a problem with authorities, he gets pissed when they yell at him. He needs to change his attitude before it's too late, this is a mental thing.

LOL, Did Zucc tell you this..........?

 

[Avery16]

Creating space for a demotion?

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Creating space for a demotion?

Nieves may be healthy so its possible.

 

[Lone Ranger]

I think it depends on how you view developing.

Sometimes a guy puts up a lot of points because he's in a situation where that's all he can focus on, or he has linemates that make him look great. But that doesn't mean he's necessarily developing; he's coasting.

Other times you have a guy who doesn't put up a ton of points, but he's learning how to be a player. He's learning how to maximize his talents, figuring out how to drive play at the NHL level, and better utilize his linemates.

I think Buchnevich, right now, could probably sleepwalk his way to 20 goals and 50 points if the Rangers just let him go. But does that make a winning player? Does is get the most out of his talents? Is that a long-term recipe for success?

Those last points are probably where the debate is. Ideally, you're trying to find the guys who are not only talented, but also capable of doing what's necessary to win. Players who are willing to fight for games and victories.

I don't think the Rangers want Buch to just to be a passenger. They want him to be active participant.

I agree, if you don't hold offensively gifted players like Buchnevich accountable, and make them play in all phases, they end up with inflated stats, but you lose a lot of 6-4 games.

 

[eco's bones]

Both Russian.

Actually Zherdev is from the Ukraine.

 

[eco's bones]

Creating space for a demotion?

Not really--they just sent Beleskey down and there's the possibility that Nieves will be joining him. At the same time Sean O'Donnell has been putting up points and pushed him off the 4th line.

 

[eco's bones]

One thing I think Quinn has an issue with is players who do fly by's all the time. Buch is one of them. This is the passenger thing. Spooner is another with this issue and Vesey and Namestnikov look like they've gotten the message. Work hard--get in the way. Vesey and Vlad are more involved in everything now. I think if the rest of Buch's game was up to par though Quinn wouldn't be scratching him just because he's one of our most talented players. Great players grind too. Look at Kucherov or Pastrnak. Those are players that Buchnevich has the skillset to do a pretty decent replication. Can't get by just on skill. Quinn is pushing him but the best players push themselves. They're mentally tough.

 

[Kakko Schmakko]

Never been a fan of the approach that a player only needs to play to get to the next level. I think there's more to it than that. (I know that’s not really what you’re saying.)

I think a player needs to put in the work and commitment to play, in order to play. I think you play through mistakes, you play through slumps, you play through teachable moments. But it's a not a one man band scenario either.

Players getting benched is not a foreign concept. And frankly, if Buch can't respond properly to a pair of benchings, than the odds of him getting to the next level are pretty slim --- regardless of how much he plays.

I know that's not going to be the most popular answer.

is there any evidence that Buchnevich did not respond to the benchings and a healthy scratch? Has anybody pointed out what he did or did not do to deserve a 2nd healthy scratch?

 

[pld459666]

Personally, I'd rather let a young player develope his offensive skill set at a younger age and lean him towards the understanding that playing well on both sides of the puck wins games and championships

If a kid like Buchnevich can "coast" to 40+ points, I'm not sure that benching him for full games will draw out an additional 10-15

I'll take a point producer with certain flaws over a complete player that puts up 30+

 

[GAGLine]

Personally, I'd rather let a young player develope his offensive skill set at a younger age and lean him towards the understanding that playing well on both sides of the puck wins games and championships

If a kid like Buchnevich can "coast" to 40+ points, I'm not sure that benching him for full games will draw out an additional 10-15

I'll take a point producer with certain flaws over a complete player that puts up 30+

Except his flaws affect his offense too. Buch has 12 shots in 10 games. Fast has 25 shots in 12 games. I don't think anyone would disagree that Buch is the more offensively talented player, so why the disparity? Because Fast drives the net and wins board battles. Fast is an effective forechecker. Buch is not. Fast fights for every inch of ice. Buch doesn't. That's what Quinn is trying to correct.

 

[RangerBoy]

I think everything is going exactly the way Gorton had planned it.
I also think that in Quinn’s mind, he’s going about things like it’s business as usual.

I highly doubt JG would ever tell Quinn to tank and even though the writing may be on the wall, JG simply put a skeleton crew of misfits with some kids on the ice along with an inexperienced coach in order to achieve the same results.

Tank without making it blatantly obvious..

Quinn is doing the best he can but making all these crazy roster moves like he’s still in college just shows his inexperience and that’s all by JG’s design IMO

Quinn changes the lines every game. He always seems to single out one player to be benched every game. Quinn talks about accountability but he rarely punishes all of the players making mistakes.

The veteran players make mistake after mistake.

Quinn mentioned "accountability" yesterday when asked about Chytil

Quinn addressed the situation with Filip Chytil, who did not get off the bench for the final 14:05 of the third period plus the 5-minute OT.

“There was a reason for that and he will be told why,” the coach said of the 19-year-old, who is seeking his first goal. “There are things we continue to work on with him. “You want him to play, but you have to send the right message and [demand] accountability in the right way. There are times you want him to play through, but that ends up sending the wrong message.”

https://nypost.com/2018/11/01/rangers-and-shattenkirk-looking-to-build-on-impressive-win/

This is no way to develop young players which is what the Rangers mentioned when they hired Quinn.

The Rangers need to send Chytil to the AHL before Quinn destroys his career.

 

[RangerBoy]

I think it's more a mindset than anything else. Clearly the effort and commitment is something the coaches feel is severely lacking.

Unfortunately, this isn't a terribly surprising development considering Buch's reputation over the years.

But I also think it's important to remember, the Rangers are also deciding who are there long-term keepers and who they might be willing to move to shore up another area.

Let's for argument's sake say that the Rangers draft a guy like Kakko in June. Let's also say Kravtsov is expected to come to North America. Suddenly, a guy like Buchnevich becomes a piece the team might be willing to move to improve their defense. That scenario also becomes far more likely if he doesn't put himself in a position of higher security with his play this season.

So some of what we're seeing is also a weeding out process for a number of guys. You'd think Buchnevich wouldn't find himself included in that process, and yet here we are.

Don't worry.

Quinn will find something wrong with Kakko or Kravtsov.

Quinn wants every player to play the same way. Straight ahead. No creativity. Get the puck in deep. Get the puck on net.

 

[Irishguy42]

Quinn changes the lines every game. He always seems to single out one player to be benched every game. Quinn talks about accountability but he rarely punishes all of the players making mistakes.

The veteran players make mistake after mistake.

Quinn mentioned "accountability" yesterday when asked about Chytil



https://nypost.com/2018/11/01/rangers-and-shattenkirk-looking-to-build-on-impressive-win/

This is no way to develop young players which is what the Rangers mentioned when they hired Quinn.

The Rangers need to send Chytil to the AHL before Quinn destroys his career.

Good thing you aren't a coach, eh? Cause you don't know anything.

 

[NYR Viper]

Don't worry.

Quinn will find something wrong with Kakko or Kravtsov.

Quinn wants every player to play the same way. Straight ahead. No creativity. Get the puck in deep. Get the puck on net.

I think he wants every player to put forth effort all over the ice. Buchnevich was doing exactly that in the preseason. Many Europeans and Russians do just that. Buchnevich isn't Laine or Kucherov. If he wants to succeed in this league, he is going to have to adapt more to this style of game and play firmer all over the ice. He needs to win puck battles and create chances.