Gardner McKay
RIP, Jimmy.
Neither was McDavid.
Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part XIII
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Not sure they have a specific plan.
They seem to be trying to do a whole bunch of things all at once.
Which would be fine if some of those things did not contradict one another.
If they want to sell Zucc, Hayes, there is not much of a reason to have Howden/Chytil/Spooner/Name/Fast taking playing time away from them. They should be putting the possible rentals in every position to pad their stats.
If they want to develop Howden/Chytil playing Hayes, Zucc, Spooner, Name, Fast in front of them to the point one or the other is playing 4th line or not playing in close games.
I think it's similar with asset management and their culture building exercise. Not sure they can do both optimally. Staal is not a trade asset, if he is a culture building asset, okay but that is going to take playing time away from someone. McQuaid maybe is a small trade asset, maybe not, but similarly if he is a culture building asset who is playing someone else is not. McLeod too.
Overall it seems kind of disjointed.
They seem to be trying to do a whole bunch of things all at once.
Which would be fine if some of those things did not contradict one another.
If they want to sell Zucc, Hayes, there is not much of a reason to have Howden/Chytil/Spooner/Name/Fast taking playing time away from them. They should be putting the possible rentals in every position to pad their stats.
If they want to develop Howden/Chytil playing Hayes, Zucc, Spooner, Name, Fast in front of them to the point one or the other is playing 4th line or not playing in close games.
I think it's similar with asset management and their culture building exercise. Not sure they can do both optimally. Staal is not a trade asset, if he is a culture building asset, okay but that is going to take playing time away from someone. McQuaid maybe is a small trade asset, maybe not, but similarly if he is a culture building asset who is playing someone else is not. McLeod too.
Overall it seems kind of disjointed.
Edge
Kris King's Ghost
I don't find it to be disjointed, so much as transitional.
I think there's tendency to go all or nothing, when in reality it's going to come in waves.
It's a balancing act and I think by nature this is not a year that's going to look neat and tidy all the time.
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I think it could be more transitional later on in the season, mostly post the trade deadline, less transitional now at least among the youngest prospects.
I think if it makes sense for Lias to be in the AHL, it makes sense for Chytil too.
Howden has done a better job transitioning.
I think everything is going exactly the way Gorton had planned it.
I also think that in Quinn’s mind, he’s going about things like it’s business as usual.
I highly doubt JG would ever tell Quinn to tank and even though the writing may be on the wall, JG simply put a skeleton crew of misfits with some kids on the ice along with an inexperienced coach in order to achieve the same results.
Tank without making it blatantly obvious..
Quinn is doing the best he can but making all these crazy roster moves like he’s still in college just shows his inexperience and that’s all by JG’s design IMO
Edge
Kris King's Ghost
I'll repeat what I said earlier --- at this point, 125 games into his NHL career with two different coaches, it's probably time for Buchnevich to start looking inward for the solutions.
Brings me back to the Torts days where he used to chide Gaborik for his refusal to "stop on a puck." There is no interest to battle - to...get in the way, as Quinn put it.
Gaborik could get away with it because he was more talented in every way. Buchnevich doesn't have that level of collateral.
JESSEWENEEDTOCOOK
Twenty f*ckin years
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Edge
Kris King's Ghost
I think it depends on how you view developing.
Sometimes a guy puts up a lot of points because he's in a situation where that's all he can focus on, or he has linemates that make him look great. But that doesn't mean he's necessarily developing; he's coasting.
Other times you have a guy who doesn't put up a ton of points, but he's learning how to be a player. He's learning how to maximize his talents, figuring out how to drive play at the NHL level, and better utilize his linemates.
I think Buchnevich, right now, could probably sleepwalk his way to 20 goals and 50 points if the Rangers just let him go. But does that make a winning player? Does is get the most out of his talents? Is that a long-term recipe for success?
Those last points are probably where the debate is. Ideally, you're trying to find the guys who are not only talented, but also capable of doing what's necessary to win. Players who are willing to fight for games and victories.
I don't think the Rangers want Buch to just to be a passenger. They want him to be active participant.
Edge
Kris King's Ghost
I think for the Rangers they probably view this as a crossroads for Buchnevich.
Everyone could settle for him scoring 20 goals and 50 points and not much else.
Or they can see if they bring out that 25 goal, 55-60 point player in him who also scores important goals and keeps teams on their toes more often.
I think it's too early to settle for the former.
GeorgeKaplan
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SingnBluesOnBroadway
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Not sure he was more talented. But he certainly was more productive....
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Guess I'd rather take the 50 point passenger for now, hope that leads to confidence and changes something.
By the time the Rangers are done trying to turn everyone into winning players they'll be on a new CBA, Coach, maybe even a new GM. Instead maybe in the mean time productive players could be parlayed into "natural" winners, (hopefully with a similar talent level)
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Or they could just leave him to be the productive if under performing player he probably always will be.
He had 3 points in 4 games before being scratched and 43 points in 74 games last year which puts him in the top 40 of right wings despite playing being younger and having less ice time than most of the people ahead of him.
Whether he is part of the future or not he needs to play, if only to keep his value from dropping to zero.
As a wiser man than myself once said "At some point, the in-game results have to matter more than the practices."
Edge
Kris King's Ghost
I think it's more a mindset than anything else. Clearly the effort and commitment is something the coaches feel is severely lacking.
Unfortunately, this isn't a terribly surprising development considering Buch's reputation over the years.
But I also think it's important to remember, the Rangers are also deciding who are there long-term keepers and who they might be willing to move to shore up another area.
Let's for argument's sake say that the Rangers draft a guy like Kakko in June. Let's also say Kravtsov is expected to come to North America. Suddenly, a guy like Buchnevich becomes a piece the team might be willing to move to improve their defense. That scenario also becomes far more likely if he doesn't put himself in a position of higher security with his play this season.
So some of what we're seeing is also a weeding out process for a number of guys. You'd think Buchnevich wouldn't find himself included in that process, and yet here we are.
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What if Kravtsov plays like Buch?
It kind of goes back to my original point, if other teams can take a Buchnevich and turn him into an asset for their team or on the trade front, and the Rangers are constantly trying to change those type of players, where does that leave the Rangers who are in competition with all the other teams who are not as worried about turning players into stuff they are not or never likely will be?
Edge
Kris King's Ghost
I don't think the value will drop to zero, but I do think the Rangers are trying to figure out if they have a legit top six forward on their hands, or more of a placeholder.
I also think while the in-game results have to matter more than the practices, we also have to be careful about focusing too much on points as the only barometer of success --- especially when it comes to long-term planning.
In the case of the Rangers, the idea is to keep the cream of the crop for themselves, and move other guys to fill other areas. With some of these younger talents, I think they're trying to determine who is going to fall into which category. With regards to Buchnevich, I think they see the potential to be one of the cream of the crop players for them and that's what they are trying to push for.
Gardner McKay
RIP, Jimmy.
Agree. Haven't really thought about Gaborik in a while but man, he was an electrifying player to watch at times.
Amazing Kreiderman
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Why would he? Aside from their nationality, they have nothing in common. Kravtsov is already a defensively responsible player who is all over the ice
Edge
Kris King's Ghost
Then he would probably find a similar fate. But I can't say I really see the similarities thus far.
I also don't think it's a matter of trying to "change" Bunchnevich. I don't think they're trying to turn him into a defensive specialist, or a power forward, or a playmaking center. I think the Rangers are trying to get Buchnevich to give them "more Buchnevich."
I also don't think we're talking about giving up and trading Buchnevich for scraps, so much as the possibility that his play makes him more expendable as other talents potentially emerge.
As for the other teams, they are doing the exact same things with their players. This is not a unique concept. However, the teams that you perceive as "not" doing that are probably at a point where they've already figured some of that out. The Rangers, being a team with a lot of younger players and unknowns, is still going through the process.
I don't really get the impression that the Rangers are trying to change players, I think they're trying to get the younger guys to do more of what they do best. And for Buchnevich, he's not consistently doing what he does best. And the juice is certainly worth the squeeze.
Mac n Gs
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We can’t discount just how productive Buch has been before the concussion and this drt spell. Pulju still has a lot to show, and Edmonton needs to add here. I’d hope Buch’s value is higher than this around the league.
Amazing Kreiderman
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Interesting to bring up the concussion. That can have serious implications even after a player is declared healthy
Edge
Kris King's Ghost
Someone asked earlier about why not just letting Buchnevich be.
I guess, when push comes to shove, it's because he's capable of more and at 23 this might be our last best chance to try and pull the most out of him.
Because if we can Buchnevich to more consistently do what he does well, and really buy into that understanding, it's a huge benefit to the organization.
Some guys you push and you wonder what the payoff amounts to --- an extra couple of goals, marginal production from a player with a lower ceiling?
Other guys are worth pushing, because the payoff can be substantial.
I guess, when push comes to shove, it's because he's capable of more and at 23 this might be our last best chance to try and pull the most out of him.
Because if we can Buchnevich to more consistently do what he does well, and really buy into that understanding, it's a huge benefit to the organization.
Some guys you push and you wonder what the payoff amounts to --- an extra couple of goals, marginal production from a player with a lower ceiling?
Other guys are worth pushing, because the payoff can be substantial.
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