Roster Building Thread - Part XII(Training Camp/Preseason)

[NYR Viper]

I'm not opposed to playing Panarin the full 2 minutes on the PP. I am opposed to playing Fox though. Jones should get a shot there, if for nothing else, to make sure the team has some sort of depth at that spot as the season progresses.

 

[Machinehead]

Mika, as the triggerman on PP1, scored 12 ppg last season... and fell apart in the Conference finals. He's not untouchable on the pp IMO. Hey I'd love for him to rebound this year but who knows?

12 is a lot, actually.

Usually one guy goes crazy (it was Kreider in 2022) but around 20 is usually good for second place in the league.

12 powerplay goals puts you in or tied for the top 20 in the league.

Since Zibanejad joined the Rangers, only Draisaitl, Pastrnak, Ovechkin, and Stamkos have more powerplay goals. Only 14 players have more powerplay points.

By the end of the 2024-25 season, Kreider and Zibanejad will be 1st and 2nd in all-time Rangers powerplay goals.

If Zibanejad has a pedestrian output (by his standards) of 30 powerplay points, that will see him pass Jean Ratelle to move into 5th all-time in Rangers powerplay points, breathing right down the neck of Mark Messier. If he has a year closer to his best, he could pass Messier as well.

They are both absolutely untouchable on PP1, and the team rightfully won't even explore it. Sorry to go off-brand and agree with the team but they're right this time.

 

[bhamill]

12 is a lot, actually.

Usually one guy goes crazy (it was Kreider in 2022) but around 20 is usually good for second place in the league.

12 powerplay goals puts you in or tied for the top 20 in the league.

Since Zibanejad joined the Rangers, only Draisaitl, Pastrnak, Ovechkin, and Stamkos have more powerplay goals. Only 14 players have more powerplay points.

By the end of the 2024-25 season, Kreider and Zibanejad will be 1st and 2nd in all-time Rangers powerplay goals.

If Zibanejad has a pedestrian output (by his standards) of 30 powerplay points, that will see him pass Jean Ratelle to move into 5th all-time in Rangers powerplay points, breathing right down the neck of Mark Messier. If he has a year closer to his best, he could pass Messier as well.

They are both absolutely untouchable on PP1, and the team rightfully won't even explore it. Sorry to go off-brand and agree with the team but they're right this time.

There were 5 players tied for 20th at 12 ppg. Kreider was 5th with 18. The leader, Reinhardt had 27. Mika's not a PP1 untouchable IMO, especially if someone like Laf whose EV goals exceeded Mika's EV AND PP goals can possibly score MORE...
I don't care if Mika is an ALL TIME leader on the powerplay if he can't play to that level NOW.
Again, I'm not saying to banish him, but trying out Laf on PP1 instead of him to see how it goes is certainly something I think is worth trying. And I'm not saying necessarily the SAME PP setup and philosophy that teams have adjusted well to, and ultimately stifled, in the playoffs. I'm talking having different looks as options. If Laf works better there there's always PP2 for Mika (you want a dangerous PP2 right?) or he's available to slot in on PP1 whenever and however often Lavi feels like it. It's not some sort of irrevocable decision, its experimentation to be more versatile. After watching our PP disappear the last two post seasons, I'm kind of shocked that I'm saying anything controversial here...

 

[Machinehead]

There were 5 players tied for 20th at 12 ppg. Kreider was 5th with 18. The leader, Reinhardt had 27. Mika's not a PP1 untouchable IMO, especially if someone like Laf whose EV goals exceeded Mika's EV AND PP goals can possibly score MORE...
I don't care if Mika is an ALL TIME leader on the powerplay if he can't play to that level NOW.
Again, I'm not saying to banish him, but trying out Laf on PP1 instead of him to see how it goes is certainly something I think is worth trying. And I'm not saying necessarily the SAME PP setup and philosophy that teams have adjusted well to, and ultimately stifled, in the playoffs. I'm talking having different looks as options. If Laf works better there there's always PP2 for Mika (you want a dangerous PP2 right?) or he's available to slot in on PP1 whenever and however often Lavi feels like it. It's not some sort of irrevocable decision, its experimentation to be more versatile. After watching our PP disappear the last two post seasons, I'm kind of shocked that I'm saying anything controversial here...

It's not the concept that should be controversial, it's the player.

You know who's not on any of these lists? Vincent Trocheck.

I love Trocheck and I think he's an excellent player in most aspects, powerplay included, but he's not literally one of the best powerplay producers of the last decade like Zibanjead is. And you can't just say "but what about now?" when Zibanejad is 31 years old and had a career high in powerplay points in 2023. It's not like he's on a steep decline. He's not on a decline at all. He's the player he always was and people are just becoming increasingly annoyed about it.

Why wouldn't Trocheck be the obvious choice if you want to try another option?

Yes, I want a good PP2. Panarin x2, Trocheck, Chytil, Smith, and Fox/Jones would be a good PP2.

You keep the guy that's in the five or so best powerplay scorers since dinosaurs walked the earth on PP1. Yes, it's controversial (and wrong) to suggest otherwise.

 

[Profet]

I like this. I've actually suggested this in the past, but if it's only for 30-40 seconds and they get on ice only outside of the offensive zone it won't matter much. They need to be given the 1:20-30 share of a chunk powerplays to develop into anything.


Mika, as the triggerman on PP1, scored 12 ppg last season... and fell apart in the Conference finals. He's not untouchable on the pp IMO. Hey I'd love for him to rebound this year but who knows?

Really need to start giving PP2 some initial PP time. Even if they are only out there for 40 seconds, allow it to be at the start of the PP at least some times.

 

[bhamill]

It's not the concept that should be controversial, it's the player.

You know who's not on any of these lists? Vincent Trocheck.

I love Trocheck and I think he's an excellent player in most aspects, powerplay included, but he's not literally one of the best powerplay producers of the last decade like Zibanjead is. And you can't just say "but what about now?" when Zibanejad is 31 years old and had a career high in powerplay points in 2023. It's not like he's on a steep decline. He's not on a decline at all. He's the player he always was and people are just becoming increasingly annoyed about it.

Why wouldn't Trocheck be the obvious choice if you want to try another option?

Yes, I want a good PP2. Panarin x2, Trocheck, Chytil, Smith, and Fox/Jones would be a good PP2.

You keep the guy that's in the five or so best powerplay scorers since dinosaurs walked the earth on PP1. Yes, it's controversial (and wrong) to suggest otherwise.

Well Trocheck did score one powerplay goal less than Mika, while not being fed chances as the triggerman, but he also has value in his faceoffs.
BTW I'm not MARRIED to Mika having to be swapped out, I only think he's not untouchable as a part of PP1. I just think we need more versatility. If it's anathema to move Zibs around, fine. But we NEED options.
And I'm fine with your PP2 suggestion, but they will need bigger chunks of PP than 30-40 secs starting outside of the O zone if we want them to develop chemistry and actually see what they can do... that doesn't change no matter what new configurations we want to try.
And again I don't care about what he did in many seasons past, I care about now.

Really need to start giving PP2 some initial PP time. Even if they are only out there for 40 seconds, allow it to be at the start of the PP at least some times.

well that's a start, but giving them at least a full minute here and there would be the way to actually let them develop some chemistry.

 

[Machinehead]

Well Trocheck did score one powerplay goal less than Mika, while not being fed chances as the triggerman, but he also has value in his faceoffs.
BTW I'm not MARRIED to Mika having to be swapped out, I only think he's not untouchable as a part of PP1. I just think we need more versatility. If it's anathema to move Zibs around, fine. But we NEED options.
And I'm fine with your PP2 suggestion, but they will need bigger chunks of PP than 30-40 secs starting outside of the O zone if we want them to develop chemistry and actually see what they can do... that doesn't change no matter what new configurations we want to try.
And again I don't care about what he did in many seasons past, I care about now.

Everyone in the league uses their second powerplay unit the way we do. That's why I lean towards just keeping some guys out there.

 

[LiveLongandProspal]

Has it been a week since the world was reminded that Drury and Trouba suck?

 

[Machinehead]

Has it been a week since the world was reminded that Drury and Trouba suck?

It's only been two days.

 

[Rongomania]

Really need to start giving PP2 some initial PP time. Even if they are only out there for 40 seconds, allow it to be at the start of the PP at least some times.

Or you know, after PP1 has clearly been ice cold for three power plays. Lavi didn’t shake it up until like game 5 against Florida - all season. Would love to see jones & miller out there with Laf/Chytil/Kak.

 

[SA16]

Or you know, after PP1 has clearly been ice cold for three power plays. Lavi didn’t shake it up until like game 5 against Florida - all season. Would love to see jones & miller out there with Laf/Chytil/Kak.

If PP1 isn't scoring against a good PK why do you think a unit with worse players would be more likely to score against that same PK? Not scoring doesn’t mean they are “ice cold.” It’s basic variance.

 

[Rongomania]

If PP1 isn't scoring against a good PK why do you think a unit with worse players would be more likely to score against that same PK? Not scoring doesn’t mean they are “ice cold.” It’s basic variance.

Obviously great PK’ing is a huge factor but I don’t think that’s the case every night. No powerplay is 100% on every night outside of Drai/McD and MacKinnon/rantanen/Makar.

 

[SA16]

Obviously great PK’ing is a huge factor but I don’t think that’s the case every night. No powerplay is 100% on every night outside of Drai/McD and MacKinnon/rantanen/Makar.

And yet the Rangers PP1 has been better than MacKinnon/Rantanen/Makar.

11.3 Goals/60 last year vs 10.1

10.3 goals/60 the last two years vs 10.0

What it is is that you watch every Rangers PP so you see the ones where they look bad and you do not watch every Colorado PP so you don't see the ones where they look bad.

 

[IDvsEGO]

If PP1 isn't scoring against a good PK why do you think a unit with worse players would be more likely to score against that same PK? Not scoring doesn’t mean they are “ice cold.” It’s basic variance.

It’s also math. The best power plays sit around 30% at best! That means 60% of the time they don’t score. In a 7 game series that can be a cold streak really easy.

 

[Profet]

Or you know, after PP1 has clearly been ice cold for three power plays. Lavi didn’t shake it up until like game 5 against Florida - all season. Would love to see jones & miller out there with Laf/Chytil/Kak.

Who is taking faceoffs? Miller?

 

[Rongomania]

And yet the Rangers PP1 has been better than MacKinnon/Rantanen/Makar.

11.3 Goals/60 last year vs 10.1

10.3 goals/60 the last two years vs 10.0

What it is is that you watch every Rangers PP so you see the ones where they look bad and you do not watch every Colorado PP so you don't see the ones where they look bad.

I’m not calling for blowing up our PP. It just hasn’t gotten us past that conference final stage at this point.

I don’t think it’s criminal to push these young guys more and give them some more time.

The data posted earlier in the thread shows we get less powerplay opportunities than all of the other top teams. Hopefully that changes as the kids (please) take more steps.

PP1 will still get plenty of opportunities. And maybe putting some added pressure on them will be a good thing, they are all vets who can handle those expectations.

Who is taking faceoffs? Miller?

Well, Mr. Smarty Pants, we should all hope Chytil is back and running at 100%.

 

[LannyMcdonald]

It’s also math. The best power plays sit around 30% at best! That means 60% of the time they don’t score. In a 7 game series that can be a cold streak really easy.

What about the other 10% ?

 

[Machinehead]

What about the other 10% ?

Trouba ends it by taking a penalty

 

[Shesterkybomb]

Othmann's makes 832k if he plays all 82 games. He got a signing bonus of 92k each year. But if he doesn't play in the NHL on his elc thats money he just doesn't get...
His minors salary is 80k.
If he plays 7ish games in the NHL he'll make more money than he had all last season. 14 games doubles that.

The difference is staggering.

Then I'd suggest he come ready to take a roster spot from someone so that he can make his full salary. If having him on the team makes them better he will be there, it's up to him what he wants his take home to be.

 

[bhamill]

Everyone in the league uses their second powerplay unit the way we do. That's why I lean towards just keeping some guys out there.

I don’t disagree, but what’s wrong with “innovating”? Why not think outside the box and see if it works for us? Anyway. I doubt Laviolette reads my ramblings on here, shouts “Eureaka!” and implements my plans. Hahaha. It’s way more likely we do what you’re saying. Ah well.

 

[Profet]

Well, Mr. Smarty Pants, we should all hope Chytil is back and running at 100%.

My point is that Chytil at 100% is still ike a 40% faceoff win guy historically.

Compare that with Trocheck who is around 60%.

Faceoffs and initial possession are everything for power plays. Especially offensive zone draws.

 

[TominNC]

I don’t disagree, but what’s wrong with “innovating”? Why not think outside the box and see if it works for us? Anyway. I doubt Laviolette reads my ramblings on here, shouts “Eureaka!” and implements my plans. Hahaha. It’s way more likely we do what you’re saying. Ah well.

Maybe the innovation should be at 5v5 and NOT the part of the game we’re really good at.

 

[effen]

There's no reason to change the PP personnel. The "they went cold" arguments are largely because they stop moving because all 5 guys would prefer to hold the puck and slow it down and read the play. If everyone does that no one moves. Then they get swallowed up and owned.

That's coaching, you only need a few rotations and the will to scream at them from the bench to stop standing still.

 

[bhamill]

Maybe the innovation should be at 5v5 and NOT the part of the game we’re really good at.

How about both? I’m not sitting here thinking. “We really shouldn’t bother improving at 5v5.” Hahaha. I’m all for it! Besides the power play is a part of the game that we’re really good at… till we aren’t and the post season is over for us.

 

[80shockeywasbuns]

In my experience, analytics tend to have a hard time saying you're bad at something when you're good at it.

The point is that when it struggles, he’s the clear weak link. Analytics will not help identify that when it comes to power play