Roster Building Thread - Part XII(Training Camp/Preseason)

[SA16]

Because you likely end up with less cold streaks in the playoffs.

I don’t think it works that way

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

Regular season powerplay is the reason we got an easy Washington matchup and didn't potentially get bounced in the first round...

So it got us a worse draft pick and prevented big changes from happening

 

[TominNC]

I think you do something big and split Fox and Panarin.
I think you accept we have too much talent to load onto one, and you accept that maybe we drop from top 5 to top 10, but that we end up with a deeper power play.

Maybe pp1
Chytil tro Laf
Panarin Kakko/smith ?

Pp 2

Mika ? Ck
? Fox

There’s a couple questions there and also the numbering doesn’t matter. And before anyone starts, No I don’t believe Kakko deserves pp1 off the bat after last season.
But to split you do end up with something like that.

That's a horrible plan. Who needs deeper if you're worse. Part of the worse is because you don't have the most effective combination.

 

[kovazub94]

Because you likely end up with less cold streaks in the playoffs.

When do you determine that you’re on a cold streak? At what point do you give up on letting your top-5 league-wide unit work through their issues?

 

[TGWL]

So it got us a worse draft pick and prevented big changes from happening

Ok, i'll bite. what big changes were happening? Do you really think Panarin or Zibanejad was being moved? The situation with Trouba wouldn't have played out any different. They were never just walking away from Lindgren regardless of the season outcome.

You went from "Regular season PP rankings are fugazi" because they don't mean as much as the playoffs, to "Oh, great, our playplay was so good it cost us from getting a better draft pick and making changes."

 

[McRanger92]

I don't think swapping Laf to PP1 during the ECF changes that much. Regarding the rest, it's going to be hard for our coach to break up Laf/Trocheck/Panarin with how they produced last season, even if that means the the rest of the lines don't appear as balanced. Without splitting Kreider/Zibanejad, or the Trocheck/Laf/Panarin line, there's only so much you can do. Replacing Zibanejad with Laf on the top powerplay feels more like just trying to get Laf more points than trying to make the powerplay any better, regardless how you feel about Zibanejad, because they were still a top powerplay team.

With that said, Zibanejad has been up and down when it comes to the powerplay. He took nearly 30 less 5 on 4 shots and somehow missed the net more. He got more shots through on net during the 2022-2023 season, with a much better unblocked shooting percentage. The Rangers stopped making the Zibanejad shot the number 1 priority and it benefited the team, but I still can't see them just pulling him off the top unit for Laf. I also like Trocheck on that unit so it's tough to really get anybody else time for PP1.

All good points. My motivation to put Lafreniere on PP1 is that I think hes one of our top 4 forwards. He was drafted #1 and is supposed to be the go-to guy. You have to put him in a role to see if he can do it, especially after his playoffs.

Zibanejad . Or Kreider. Or Trochek. Only Panarin and Fox should be untouchable there

Run 2 units. Lavi can go to the Big 5 when they are up or down a goal late. Laf was the extra attacker all playoffs as well. I hope they see the logic in it and the players dont bitch.

 

[bhamill]

No, that's purely speculation. You can also end up with 4 different units that can't get it done in the playoffs.

Its also speculation that the powerplay as is will continue to perform well... it's ALL speculation. But if no other combos work, we still have the one that has let us down in the LAST two playoffs, so lucky us!
I don't understand why people are adverse to trying new things in the regular season. That's where you get prepared for the post season. No one is saying once we try some new configurations we can NEVER go back to Pan, Mika, Kreids, Fox and Troch... its not like we are exiling any of them... they are still available to be a unit...

 

[bhamill]

When do you determine that you’re on a cold streak? At what point do you give up on letting your top-5 league-wide unit work through their issues?

In our case? Never. We just get knocked out of the playoffs.

 

[80shockeywasbuns]

There’s literally no way for analytics to weed out Zibanejad as the problematic PP1 shitter

 

[TGWL]

Its also speculation that the powerplay as is will continue to perform well... it's ALL speculation. But if no other combos work, we still have the one that has let us down in the LAST two playoffs, so lucky us!
I don't understand why people are adverse to trying new things in the regular season. That's where you get prepared for the post season. No one is saying once we try some new configurations we can NEVER go back to Pan, Mika, Kreids, Fox and Troch... its not like we are exiling any of them... they are still available to be a unit...

Because generally players feel comfortable playing with the same group and it takes some time to find chemistry. If we're putting players in a position to play here and there with different groups, it could just as easily back fire in the playoffs, especially if it's been a while since that unit played together. If you go 15 games without playing the unit you experimented with earlier in the season it does seems doubtful that any chemistry is quickly formed again.

Lav is coaching a team where the entire staff believes is good enough to win the cup. (Whether you, me, or majority of the fans believe that). The goal is to win games. Win as many games as you can. You want to put yourself in a better position for the playoffs. You want to not have to worry about some wild card race. Experimenting with a team you believe is good enough to win the cup could find the staff having to dig themselves out of a hole if it goes bad.

I don't think anybody is saying that the unit shouldn't be changed or adjusted if they're taking too long to break bad habits, or find some production, but I think using random units to experiment with and holding onto a belief that come playoffs that means everybody will have chemistry is actually going to end up doing the opposite. You want to give Laf some PP time with the big boys, especially if the unit goes cold? I'm not arguing that. Wanting to change these units completely so 3-4 different groups are used and experimented with through-out the season? That sounds like disaster to me.

 

[bhamill]

Because generally players feel comfortable playing with the same group and it takes some time to find chemistry. If we're putting players in a position to play here and there with different groups, it could just as easily back fire in the playoffs, especially if it's been a while since that unit played together. If you go 15 games without playing the unit you experimented with earlier in the season it does seems doubtful that any chemistry is quickly formed again.

Lav is coaching a team where the entire staff believes is good enough to win the cup. (Whether you, me, or majority of the fans believe that). The goal is to win games. Win as many games as you can. You want to put yourself in a better position for the playoffs. You want to not have to worry about some wild card race. Experimenting with a team you believe is good enough to win the cup could find the staff having to dig themselves out of a hole if it goes bad.

I don't think anybody is saying that the unit shouldn't be changed or adjusted if they're taking too long to break bad habits, or find some production, but I think using random units to experiment with and holding onto a belief that come playoffs that means everybody will have chemistry is actually going to end up doing the opposite.

I don't think we disagree so much as I may have not made myself clear enough.
Say we average 3 pp a game and try a new configuration for 1:30 for one or two of them, for a stretch of games, that's still plenty of time for the incumbent pp1 to stay familiar. This isn't about DISBANDING pp1, I've never suggested that, it's about options. Options we could have used in the last two post seasons while the failure of our pp helped get us bounced...
I'm far from suggesting that random units will have chemistry. I'm suggesting alternate, well thought out units being ALLOWED to form chemistry in the regular season to avoid our only option in the playoffs being pp2 or random units with no chemistry when pp1 inevitably goes cold... And if Laf on PP1 scores more than the 12 whole pp goals Mika scored and makes that unit even better, that is a bonus.

 

[Hire Sather]

The truth is we aren't winning anything if our goalie is our best player.

It failed for 15+ years and will continue to fail.

Now he's going to be paid like our best player, which is a contract I'm dreading more than anything else with this team right now.

This year is our last shot.

 

[The Crypto Guy]

The truth is we aren't winning anything if our goalie is our best player.

It failed for 15+ years and will continue to fail.

Now he's going to be paid like our best player, which is a contract I'm dreading more than anything else with this team right now.

This year is our last shot.

That's ridiculous. It takes a team to win, he can be our best player, but when the rest of the players shit the bed and don't show up then yes, we arent going to win.

I'd love for him to be our best player, makes things a lot easier. But when your other top players arent showing up then it doesn't matter.

 

[bhamill]

The truth is we aren't winning anything if our goalie is our best player.

It failed for 15+ years and will continue to fail.

Now he's going to be paid like our best player, which is a contract I'm dreading more than anything else with this team right now.

This year is our last shot.

Well if our best skaters raised their game in the playoffs, or in Pan's case just maintained what he did in the regular season, oUr goalie wouldn't be our best player. An uninjured Fox I would bank on having been our best player last post season. As it was our best players were, in order, Shesty, Troch and Laf. The latter two having actually raised their games.

 

[mas0764]

The truth is we aren't winning anything if our goalie is our best player.

It failed for 15+ years and will continue to fail.

Now he's going to be paid like our best player, which is a contract I'm dreading more than anything else with this team right now.

This year is our last shot.

Yeah, the rebuild was supposed to net us, if not a Crosby/McDavid level player, then at least a MacKinnon/Draisaitl/Barkov/Tkachuk/Eichel level player or two, and it didn't really net us that.

 

[IDvsEGO]

Yeah, the rebuild was supposed to net us, if not a Crosby/McDavid level player, then at least a MacKinnon/Draisaitl/Barkov/Tkachuk/Eichel level player or two, and it didn't really net us that.

Im sorry? Did we miss what Laf is?
Slow development aside his last season showed he’s at that level.

 

[bhamill]

Im sorry? Did we miss what Laf is?
Slow development aside his last season showed he’s at that level.

Or at least a decent bet to be there this season that he will just be turning 23 for.

 

[eco's bones]

Our power play works very well. Definitely top 5 if not top 3 in the NHL. It's really good. We might not be happy with Mika's regular season or Panarin's playoffs but they're definitely part of the group that makes the power play work.

As far as playoffs....the deeper you get more often than not the better the penalty killing units you can expect to face. Also power plays tend to be streaky.....even the very best one. But if you have a top notch power play why would you try to take it apart just to fit in alternative players and risk the chance that things go absolutely sideways?

To me a better answer is to develop a second unit that's actually dangerous if you can.

 

[bhamill]

Our power play works very well. Definitely top 5 if not top 3 in the NHL. It's really good. We might not be happy with Mika's regular season or Panarin's playoffs but they're definitely part of the group that makes the power play work.

As far as playoffs....the deeper you get more often than not the better the penalty killing units you can expect to face. Also power plays tend to be streaky.....even the very best one. But if you have a top notch power play why would you try to take it apart just to fit in alternative players and risk the chance that things go absolutely sideways?

To me a better answer is to develop a second unit that's actually dangerous if you can.

Not advocating disbanding it. Advocating developing options to ADD to it. Different looks to answer better PKing. And if Laf can score more than Mika's 12 PP goals why not switch them up at times. Laf had as many EV goals as Mika had EV, PP and SH goals last year...
The only way to develop a 2nd dangerous unit is to give them PP1 type time. you'll never develop a dangerous unit giving it 30-40 second bites that always start outside of the O zone. I don't care if anyone wants to call the options PP2 or PP3. The point is without the investment of legit PP time, the 1:20-30 power play shifts, you aren't going to develop the chemistry of a dangerous pp unit.

 

[Machinehead]

All good points. My motivation to put Lafreniere on PP1 is that I think hes one of our top 4 forwards. He was drafted #1 and is supposed to be the go-to guy. You have to put him in a role to see if he can do it, especially after his playoffs.



Run 2 units. Lavi can go to the Big 5 when they are up or down a goal late. Laf was the extra attacker all playoffs as well. I hope they see the logic in it and the players dont bitch.

Making the second unit better is actually a logical take on getting Lafreniere more meaningful powerplay time.

Play Panarin the whole 2 minutes. He's making $11.6M. He can rest in games that aren't close.

Play Fox the whole 2 minutes. Then the question is, who takes his PK minutes? The answer: nobody does. Play him 25 minutes per game because that's what teams with Norris winners do.

That should go up to 28-29 minutes in the playoffs. That's what winners do.

We babied him all year and he got hurt anyway.

 

[Machinehead]

The truth is we aren't winning anything if our goalie is our best player.

It failed for 15+ years and will continue to fail.

Now he's going to be paid like our best player, which is a contract I'm dreading more than anything else with this team right now.

This year is our last shot.

You're right about all of this, but the thing is, the Rangers do have a legit star now.

He should be out there every other shift like the Stars do with Heiskanen.

Cale Makar played 27 minutes per game in their Cup run.

Duncan Keith played 31 minutes per game en route to the Conn Smythe.

I don't wanna hear that Fox can't do it because he's small. Makar is like 90 pounds.

 

[Beer League Sniper]

Who is coming off PP1 so Lafreniere can play there? Or are we going to keep all the same line combos and be surprised why we lose in the ECF again?

Easiest answer to that question is Zibanejad. We tend to play a 1-3-1, and Panarin is the superior player on the left side boards. Having the left-handed Lafreniere on the right side boards makes sense. Opens up way more options from that spot than having a right hander.

But the real answer to this is to put together a decent PP2 unit. Zibanejad as the trigger-man on PP2 immediately increases the dangerousness of that unit and relieves pressure from others. Having Jones as a regular also gives that unit a real PPQB, which it didn't have last season. Fill in the rest with whoever makes sense, but Zibanejad and Jones is a decent foundation to build from. Give them actual PP time and let them figure it out, and it will yield results later in the season.

 

[Machinehead]

It's not Zibanejad. That's a complete non-starter.

There's like 2 or 3 teams in NHL f***ing history that wouldn't have Zibanejad on their first unit.

He's literally one of the most effective Rangers of all-time on the powerplay.

Saying this as somebody who's very critical of Zibanejad at 5v5, this entire conversation is just Zibanejad hate porn.

There’s literally no way for analytics to weed out Zibanejad as the problematic PP1 shitter

In my experience, analytics tend to have a hard time saying you're bad at something when you're good at it.

 

[RempireStateBuilding]

That's ridiculous. It takes a team to win, he can be our best player, but when the rest of the players shit the bed and don't show up then yes, we arent going to win.

I'd love for him to be our best player, makes things a lot easier. But when your other top players arent showing up then it doesn't matter.

Thing is can we afford to have Igor being our best player most nights in the POs? Or should the focus be on building a better team in front of whoever is in net? After the Hank years and seeing that Igor is on the same trajectory, I'd be a lot more interested to see what this team would look like with B- goaltending and an A roster instead of A+ goaltending and a B- roster.

You hope your goalie can steal a few games in the POs and even "a few" is a lot across ~20 someodd games. You expect your skaters to win games. You are right that it doesn't matter who's in net if the skaters don't show up.

 

[bhamill]

Making the second unit better is actually a logical take on getting Lafreniere more meaningful powerplay time.

Play Panarin the whole 2 minutes. He's making $11.6M. He can rest in games that aren't close.

Play Fox the whole 2 minutes. Then the question is, who takes his PK minutes? The answer: nobody does. Play him 25 minutes per game because that's what teams with Norris winners do.

That should go up to 28-29 minutes in the playoffs. That's what winners do.

We babied him all year and he got hurt anyway.

I like this. I've actually suggested this in the past, but if it's only for 30-40 seconds and they get on ice only outside of the offensive zone it won't matter much. They need to be given the 1:20-30 share of a chunk powerplays to develop into anything.

It's not Zibanejad. That's a complete non-starter.

There's like 2 or 3 teams in NHL f***ing history that wouldn't have Zibanejad on their first unit.

He's literally one of the most effective Rangers of all-time on the powerplay.

Saying this as somebody who's very critical of Zibanejad at 5v5, this entire conversation is just Zibanejad hate porn.


In my experience, analytics tend to have a hard time saying you're bad at something when you're good at it.

Mika, as the triggerman on PP1, scored 12 ppg last season... and fell apart in the Conference finals. He's not untouchable on the pp IMO. Hey I'd love for him to rebound this year but who knows?