Speculation: Roster Building Thread Part XI: We can read between the lines

[Inferno]

So the Kings who beat us just a few seasons ago who scored most of their goals from that five foot radius weren’t very good?

If the kings had guys as awful at hockey as vesey all over their lineup they woulda gotten crushed.

 

[East Coast Bias]

So the Kings who beat us just a few seasons ago who scored most of their goals from that five foot radius weren’t very good?

Yeah but what was their Corsi?

Who is gonna tell him?

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

I'd be careful what we wish for, if not Vesey getting more minutes than people like, I'm sure the Rangers can grab Jared Boll to play in those minutes. Not that I think Vesey is all that, but minutes have been given to worse ideas.

It's a good point, but Vesey only has that value on a minimum contract.

 

[Avery16]

It's a good point, but Vesey only has that value on a minimum contract.

Every team in the league would love to have Vesey on a deal that is double the league minimum.

 

[Thirty One]

Every team in the league would love to have Vesey on a deal that is double the league minimum.

Should be a trade market then!

 

[FoxysExpensiveNYDigs]

Look at Samuel Girardi in Colorado. I think John Gilmour is better than him, both offensively but also defensively.

I agree with all parts of your post other than this one. Girard was Nashville's top D prospect and is playing 17 min a night in the NHL and looks good doing so. Gilmour might be better offensively but I doubt he ever becomes better defensively than Girard.

Agree I'd like to see some kids get a shot at Defence since its become obvious this team isn't playoff bound.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

The Rangers are less than a month away from a one of the more pivotal moments in the franchise's history, and we're arguing about Jimmy Vesey? Sheesh.

The Rangers should be obtaining/developing as many Jimmy Vesey's as they can - young, cost controlled players. Maybe we get lucky with a few of them, but at worst at least we have some depth and flexibility.

 

[Off Sides]

It's a good point, but Vesey only has that value on a minimum contract.

Depends on how one looks at it, his production per cap hit is actually quite good right now at 54K per point. If that goes up to say 100K per point, it's still pretty good.

Yet I agree his overall game does not scream talent, and I have no idea why coaching is pushing so hard for him to play more than he likely should.

If there is a trade market, it's not like I am going to rant about him being moved, more so I have a feeling what is more likely to happen would be they shop UFAs and they end up with something like Stoll, Malone, or whatever other cooky ideas they can come up with for that same price and that player has no chance to even come close to producing at that cost per point ratio.

 

[pld459666]

If the kings had guys as awful at hockey as vesey all over their lineup they woulda gotten crushed.

Dwight King, Jordan Nolan and Kyle Clifford all say howdy

 

[Avery16]

Dwight King, Jordan Nolan and Kyle Clifford all say howdy

No, they're AV also

 

[Lion Hound]

Vesey gets so much hate here on HF. As a bottom 6 guy I'm ok with him. Seems like he's a really good teammate. There are nights where Vesey is the only physical player in the lineup when Kreider was out. The Hype on him as to where he was going to sign was ridiculous, but he's far from the Rangers biggest problem. He's a young, relatively inexpensive asset.

 

[silverfish]

Vesey gets so much hate here on HF. As a bottom 6 guy I'm ok with him. Seems like he's a really good teammate. There are nights where Vesey is the only physical player in the lineup when Kreider was out. The Hype on him as to where he was going to sign was ridiculous, but he's far from the Rangers biggest problem. He's a young, relatively inexpensive asset.

Vesey update:

Over the last two years, he's played 1545 5v5 minutes. Here are his rankings among forwards with at least 1500 mins of 5v5 ice time over the past two years:

(among 150 players)
goals per 60 - 55th
points per 60 - 139th
relCF% - 142nd
relxGF% - 143rd
relGF% - 149th

[data via Corsica.Hockey]

Vesey is an average goal scorer, and literal shit at everything else among his TOI peers.

 

[Avery16]

I love how people here expect that were going to sign a 23 year old rookie UFA and he's going to be a top-six player immediately and consistently on a competitive team

 

[silverfish]

I love how people here expect that were going to sign a 23 year old rookie UFA and he's going to be a top-six player immediately and consistently on a competitive team

I love how people here think that we're upset because Vesey isn't a top-6 player, and not upset because his on-ice impacts are dreadful.

I'll say it again. Vesey has already exceeded my expectations for what he'd do at the NHL level. Didn't think he'd make it to 20 career goals. Didn't think he'd stick in the league long enough for that. Here we are. Somehow, Vesey is still an NHL player despite those impacts. Shoutout to AV for sticking through it with a young player, I guess?

We're gonna have $7.5m tied up in Vesey and Miller next year and that's gonna be fun.

 

[nyr__1994]

Vesey update:

Over the last two years, he's played 1545 5v5 minutes. Here are his rankings among forwards with at least 1500 mins of 5v5 ice time over the past two years:

(among 150 players)
goals per 60 - 55th
points per 60 - 139th
relCF% - 142nd
relxGF% - 143rd
relGF% - 149th

[data via Corsica.Hockey]

Vesey is an average goal scorer, and literal **** at everything else among his TOI peers.

So there were only 150 players that have played 1500 minutes the last two years? Where does he rank if you lower that threshold to 700, or 1000 Minutes?

My point is, you picked an arbitrary number of minutes that may have eliminated a big chunk of players that may have missed a month or two over the past two seasons that drops them below the 1500 minute threshold.

 

[Avery16]

Anyone that puts not QOing Vesey above moving Staal and Smith or acquiring a potential top-line game changer on a to do list is just batty.

 

[silverfish]

So there were only 150 players that have played 1500 minutes the last two years? Where does he rank if you lower that threshold to 700, or 1000 Minutes?

My point is, you picked an arbitrary number of minutes that may have eliminated a big chunk of players that may have missed a month or two over the past two seasons that drops them below the 1500 minute threshold.

No, I picked 1500 minutes so we could see what players who receive comparable ice time do. If you want to open up the boundary, go ahead. I promise you that the story will be just as ugly.

 

[Lion Hound]

I love how people here think that we're upset because Vesey isn't a top-6 player, and not upset because his on-ice impacts are dreadful.

I'll say it again. Vesey has already exceeded my expectations for what he'd do at the NHL level. Didn't think he'd make it to 20 career goals. Didn't think he'd stick in the league long enough for that. Here we are. Somehow, Vesey is still an NHL player despite those impacts. Shoutout to AV for sticking through it with a young player, I guess?

We're gonna have $7.5m tied up in Vesey and Miller next year and that's gonna be fun.

Assuming $5 mil is for Miller, if by the numbers Vesey is so terrible why assume the large increase in his contract?

 

[Off Sides]

What are the cap hits of all those other players?

Also I am surprised by how much of a raise people think Vesey is going to get, his qualifier is going to be ~875K, he does not have the stats or comparables to get a large arbitration award. I'd be surprised to see a cap hit of 1.5M or more, and I think it will be more like 1.2M at the top end.

 

[Lion Hound]

No, I picked 1500 minutes so we could see what players who receive comparable ice time do. If you want to open up the boundary, go ahead. I promise you that the story will be just as ugly.

Also curious to see what the CF numbers would look like for sophomore players age 24 and under. Not sure if that would help or hurt him.

 

[Bruner4329]

Really hard to evaluate any winger on this team given the fact we are so weak up the middle. Zib is a number 2 center taking a role of a number 1. Way too inconsistent. Miller is a wing playing center and Hayes has turned into our checking center. Coming into the season we all knew how weak this position would be and it turned out to be true.

 

[Lion Hound]

What are the cap hits of all those other players?

Also I am surprised by how much of a raise people think Vesey is going to get, his qualifier is going to be ~875K, he does not have the stats or comparables to get a large arbitration award. I'd be surprised to see a cap hit of 1.5M or more, and I think it will be more like 1.2M at the top end.

I was thinking similar numbers.

 

[silverfish]

Assuming $5 mil is for Miller, if by the numbers Vesey is so terrible why assume the large increase in his contract?

Because I've been a fan of this team long enough to understand how the Rangers FO operates? More likely than not, they're going to bridge Vesey. I think Vesey's QO is +5%. Could be wrong. Would be great if the team started there and left it there. Well, it'd be great if they traded him, so that'd be second best. But, I suspect that Vesey will get himself a two-year bridge at a smooth $2m AAV. $5.5m AAV for JTM.

EDIT - This conversation is basically useless, though, so I'm happy to end it here. I'm more than fine to agree to disagree on topics like Vesey & Miller. If you want to respond to this, I'll read your response, of course.

 

[haveandare]

The Rangers are less than a month away from a one of the more pivotal moments in the franchise's history, and we're arguing about Jimmy Vesey? Sheesh.

The Rangers should be obtaining/developing as many Jimmy Vesey's as they can - young, cost controlled players. Maybe we get lucky with a few of them, but at worst at least we have some depth and flexibility.

I think argument against that is that it's not hard to get young cost controlled players if you don't care that they're terrible.

 

[Avery16]

What are the cap hits of all those other players?

Also I am surprised by how much of a raise people think Vesey is going to get, his qualifier is going to be ~875K, he does not have the stats or comparables to get a large arbitration award. I'd be surprised to see a cap hit of 1.5M or more, and I think it will be more like 1.2M at the top end.

Edit: delete