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Speculation: Roster Building Thread Part XI: We can read between the lines

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Nopuckluck said:
Bottom six guy. Gritty. Two years in the league. Scores 15-20 goals. Let’s get rid of him!
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I still fail to understand how anyone...eye test guy...stats guy. literally anyone, can look at Vesey and tell me he's good at anything other that scoring goals within a 5 foot radius of the net.

Hes got good feet too I guess, but in terms of like...anything else hockey related...passing, board play, cycling, hockey iq, defensive play, netural zone play, offensive zone play, shooting for rebounds...like...anything...hes just awful.

He's a PERFECT player for Claude Julien who loves tough north american kids who can hit some and bang home dirty goals, but in terms of a modern day player...hes awful. Galchenyuk, who i'd be looking to buy low on, would be a good reclamation project to go after...higher cap hit than he's worth and some serious character questions about him..but the upside is tremendous, and honestly trading vesey + a 3rd or something would be well worth it. would the habs do it? i dunno..if i were them id hang up on us...but then again..some of the trades those guys have made...yowza.
 
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GAGLine said:
Oh, he will definitely get qualified. It's rare that a player, playing in the NHL and coming off his ELC, doesn't get qualified. Vesey hasn't lived up to a lot of people's expectations, but that doesn't make him a bad player. He's still trying to figure out what sort of player he is at this level. He's used to being a scorer, but he may need to develop more of a defensive, grinding game to find his niche in the NHL.

The good news is, he isn't going to get much of a raise. He'll get a 2 year deal at something under 2 mil per year, would be my guess. I think we'll give him at least another year to see if he can carve out a role on this team. If not, maybe he gets traded for some other team's player with unrealized potential.
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Then we are in agreement pretty much, although unless he does more this year I think he would be sort of lucky to get near a 2M cap hit although I have not looked up comparables recently.
 
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Beacon said:
When Beezer was the same age as McDonagh now, Neil Smith decided to trade him because Richter emerged as clearly capable as a starter. Smith searched for the perfect trade for over a year and refused to trade VBK until he found that trade. Eventually, he got to the 1993 expansion draft and had to deal Beezer for Doug Lidster, by then an aging #7 defenseman.

A more recent, but less extreme example of that was Talbot. Apparently there was a first round option available, but the Rangers went chasing something better and got very little at the end.
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In this analogy, who is McDonagh’s Richter? McD isn’t a superfluous player. We rely on him every night. Without him, we’re kind of f***ed. So if we move him, something has to be coming back then or soon after that we can rely on in his place. This isn’t a take the best offer out there situation.
 
Avery16 said:
In this analogy, who is McDonagh’s Richter? McD isn’t a superfluous player. We rely on him every night. Without him, we’re kind of ****ed. So if we move him, something has to be coming back then or soon after that we can rely on in his place. This isn’t a take the best offer out there situation.
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Agreed. I'm sure Gorton has a list of targets that he will be trying to get in trade, either for McD, or for someone else, that he believes will be at the very least top 4 dmen. He probably has some guys he thinks can be top 2 and eventually replace McD.

What we really need is to win the draft lottery. If we are drafting Dahlin, that makes trading McD a whole lot easier. But considering we've never been that lucky before, I'm not counting on it now :P
 
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Kovalev27 said:
I like vesey but I think he’s a 4th line winger that can score some goals for you. He could give you 20 goals too but under 5 assists a year. Can’t kill penalties.

He’s a tough one. But I like his size skating and nose around the net. But the kid can’t make a pass to anyone.

Ideally I’d love to see him on a 4th line with Nieves and Fast next year.
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I think he’s this right now, but still has middle six upside. Worth retaining as long as he doesn’t get stupid about his ask.
 
Inferno said:
I still fail to understand how anyone...eye test guy...stats guy. literally anyone, can look at Vesey and tell me he's good at anything other that scoring goals within a 5 foot radius of the net.

Hes got good feet too I guess, but in terms of like...anything else hockey related...passing, board play, cycling, hockey iq, defensive play, netural zone play, offensive zone play, shooting for rebounds...like...anything...hes just awful.

He's a PERFECT player for Claude Julien who loves tough north american kids who can hit some and bang home dirty goals, but in terms of a modern day player...hes awful. Galchenyuk, who i'd be looking to buy low on, would be a good reclamation project to go after...higher cap hit than he's worth and some serious character questions about him..but the upside is tremendous, and honestly trading vesey + a 3rd or something would be well worth it. would the habs do it? i dunno..if i were them id hang up on us...but then again..some of the trades those guys have made...yowza.
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Pat Verbeek, Dino Ciccarelli, Geoff Courtnall made great careers out of goals scored from within 5 ft.
 
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It's rarer but some really good D have come from mid to late 1sts and even the 2nd round.

At some point they have to gamble, if they wait to sell McD, Zucc as real RENTALS next deadline, they are likely to be forced to take back almost pure gambles anyway, the late 1st, prospect and something else type of deal and that is only if those players are healthy and playing well at that time, which is another whole gamble.

Similar gamble, they re-sign them to contracts where the mid and back end of those deals is totally inefficient, another gamble, the players won't re-sign and want to test the market at that point.

If they wait for draft day to move them, still gambling and if they do have to take picks they cost more at that point.

At some point there are reduced returns, supply and demand, and it's all full of gambles regardless. They need to decide how they are going to bet. If they are good talent evaluates, good managers, the more gambles that should pay off than not.
 
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Looking at the Cap Situation in TB, they may only have another 2 years (this year and next). Kucherov is on a sweet heart deal right now and will be due a HUGE raise after next season (9-11 mil), Point's ELC is up, Namestikov is up for a raise this year, and the only D man they have under contract after next season is Hedman.

Tampa Bay Lightning - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

You could argue that Sergachev is necessary because of this being on the ELC, but that is a TON of uncertainty however they may want to take their run now with MacD and pony up for a package of MacD and Nash at 50% retained. Not sure what the package would look like but it would probably start with Sergachev and end with quite a few high draft picks...
 
Avery16 said:
I'm asking whats the knock on players who are limited (if Vesey is so limited) to scoring from within 5 feet from goal?
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Because hockey is not limited to that 5 foot radius. Obstruction isn't what it was back then. Clutch and grab can offset stupidity.

Vesey is awful at nearly everything other than that 5 foot radius. He's not average...he's not below average...he's legit bottom 10 in the nhl in some really important facets.
 
Miamipuck said:
Tim Kerr, Ray Sheppard, and Dave Andreychuck.
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Mark Parrish carved out a nice 700 game career too. Point is whether we can name 3 or we can name 30, if he can only do the one thing, he's going to need to be really good at it to make himself useful.
 
Inferno said:
Because hockey is not limited to that 5 foot radius. Obstruction isn't what it was back then. Clutch and grab can offset stupidity.

Vesey is awful at nearly everything other than that 5 foot radius. He's not average...he's not below average...he's legit bottom 10 in the nhl in some really important facets.
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I think the garbage goal game has actually been drastically expanded by players and teams honing their deflections/redirection game, and how you cant clear the crease like you could back then without taking a penalty. Vesey isn't slow, I don't think he's the type to rely on obstruction like you say.
 
I'd be careful what we wish for, if not Vesey getting more minutes than people like, I'm sure the Rangers can grab Jared Boll to play in those minutes. Not that I think Vesey is all that, but minutes have been given to worse ideas.
 
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Thirty One said:
Mark Parrish carved out a nice 700 game career too. Point is whether we can name 3 or we can name 30, if he can only do the one thing, he's going to need to be really good at it to make himself useful.
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It sounds like you were trying to make a point of there only being three, but thats besides the point. Vesey is a sub- million cap hit player, isn't likely to make much more on the next contract. Is taking 4th line minutes and doing well with them, not pushing for more somewhere else like Boyle did. I don't see the issue. He's not our problem. Its not having game changing offense and having too many bottom pairing Ds making top-4 money.
 
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Inferno said:
Because hockey is not limited to that 5 foot radius. Obstruction isn't what it was back then. Clutch and grab can offset stupidity.

Vesey is awful at nearly everything other than that 5 foot radius. He's not average...he's not below average...he's legit bottom 10 in the nhl in some really important facets.
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So the Kings who beat us just a few seasons ago who scored most of their goals from that five foot radius weren’t very good?
 
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