Roster Building Thread - Part XI (Off-season edition)

[rangers1314]

Edmonton hiring Bowman as GM.

What a dumb league

 

[Machinehead]

whatever makes you feel better.

If you think it's about feeling better, you missed my last 146,000 posts.

I call out the Rangers when they deserve it, and I have a bleaker outlook on this organization than most. I go out on branches a lot of people won't touch.

This isn't it. It's beating a dead horse just to have a horse to beat.

I think @Kaapo Cabana summed it up very well. It was probably dumb in the moment, but there's been worse. It may be the most calamitous trade they've ever made in terms of every part of it going wrong.

In terms of impact? I would argue it's had very little. Put Buchnevich on this team two months ago and guess what? They lose to Florida in 6.

 

[Machinehead]

We talk about roster building like we have all the cards, but for the most part, hockey just happens to you.

It makes sense to evaluate the shortcomings and think about what realistically could have been avoided.

They really needed Kaapo Kakko to be a better hockey player than he is. There's nothing they could have done about that. If he was what he was supposed to be, nobody cares about Buchnevich right now.

They really shouldn't have mounted the engine to a 1C that kills his line at even strength. But, at the time that deal was signed, and the seasons he was coming off of, and considering that Ryan Strome next man up, with the center pipeline pretty barren, what were they going to do?

To that point, every time they've picked high since the letter went out, there hasn't been a worthwhile top center available. Can't control that.

The biggest reason they lost to Florida is that they really needed Lindgren and Trouba to be different people during that series. Lindgren is just here, and they didn't go out of their way to bring him in. Trouba is the #1 thing that can and should have been avoided.

They have another one on the horizon here. They have the option to not go long-term with Lindgren and have absolutely no good reason to do so.

 

[noncents]

If you think it's about feeling better, you missed my last 146,000 posts.

I call out the Rangers when they deserve it, and I have a bleaker outlook on this organization than most. I go out on branches a lot of people won't touch.

This isn't it. It's beating a dead horse just to have a horse to beat.

I think @Kaapo Cabana summed it up very well. It was probably dumb in the moment, but there's been worse. It may be the most calamitous trade they've ever made in terms of every part of it going wrong.

In terms of impact? I would argue it's had very little. Put Buchnevich on this team two months ago and guess what? They lose to Florida in 6.

you're free to describe others' thoughts as beating a dead horse - your prerogative.

but you're oversimplifying things. does buch alone help us win a 7 game series in may? likely not.

but with buch signed, do we trade for vatrano? what about copp? tarasenko? kane? roslovic? the other guy this past year?

if we don't, who do we trade for? is it a defenseman? who do we pick with those traded assets?

if reilly smith or kakko isn't the answer this year, then the buch trade is still relevant.

 

[lakeshirts37]

Bowman becoming Oilers GM is the first step in McDavid going to UFA and signing with Rangers. Time to dream!

 

[noncents]

We talk about roster building like we have all the cards, but for the most part, hockey just happens to you.

It makes sense to evaluate the shortcomings and think about what realistically could have been avoided.

They really needed Kaapo Kakko to be a better hockey player than he is. There's nothing they could have done about that. If he was what he was supposed to be, nobody cares about Buchnevich right now.

They really shouldn't have mounted the engine to a 1C that kills his line at even strength. But, at the time that deal was signed, and the seasons he was coming off of, and considering that Ryan Strome next man up, with the center pipeline pretty barren, what were they going to do?

To that point, every time they've picked high since the letter went out, there hasn't been a worthwhile top center available. Can't control that.

The biggest reason they lost to Florida is that they really needed Lindgren and Trouba to be different people during that series. Lindgren is just here, and they didn't go out of their way to bring him in. Trouba is the #1 thing that can and should have been avoided.

They have another one on the horizon here. They have the option to not go long-term with Lindgren and have absolutely no good reason to do so.

agree, obviously, about lindgren.

but whether trouba or buch was a bigger mistake, i have to say buch was a bigger mistake. simply because you can shed bad contracts, bad money. you can eliminate anything at a cost. but you can't create top flight talent for cash. Rangers have advantages in FA but even they can't guarantee level of talent they're getting.

When you have the ability to lock up top talent, you have to get it done. No matter what's coming down the pipeline. No matter who f***ed with your teams star without physical response. It's the most important thing.

 

[Machinehead]

agree, obviously, about lindgren.

but whether trouba or buch was a bigger mistake, i have to say buch was a bigger mistake. simply because you can shed bad contracts, bad money. you can eliminate anything at a cost. but you can't create top flight talent for cash. Rangers have advantages in FA but even they can't guarantee level of talent they're getting.

When you have the ability to lock up top talent, you have to get it done. No matter what's coming down the pipeline. No matter who f***ed with your teams star without physical response. It's the most important thing.

Can you???

Everyone always says this, and yet here we are, very openly trying to get Trouba off the team and failing.

you're free to describe others' thoughts as beating a dead horse - your prerogative.

but you're oversimplifying things. does buch alone help us win a 7 game series in may? likely not.

but with buch signed, do we trade for vatrano? what about copp? tarasenko? kane? roslovic? the other guy this past year?

if we don't, who do we trade for? is it a defenseman? who do we pick with those traded assets?

if reilly smith or kakko isn't the answer this year, then the buch trade is still relevant.

Yes? Probably. There was still a hole at RW until we put Laf there just this past year, and even then, 3RW has now become a hole.

Like, I don't think they get Vatrano. They would have gotten Tarasenko and Kane because they wanted to try Panarin's friends for a playoff run. Wennberg was a center.

Why do you think those moves precluded them from getting a defenseman? The 4th they traded for Roslovic was bringing in Hanifin? They haven't gotten a top 4 defenseman because they don't think they need one, or at least they didn't until the first signs of trying to move Trouba. And even then, that feels like a salary move, not like they're desperately trying to improve the defense corps. They would just promote Schneider which they've already done.

Nobody is saying the Buchnevich trade wasn't a very bad move, but it probably didn't cost them a up, and to be honest, every singular move -no matter how bad it is- has a shelf-life on complaining about it constantly.

We don't see the Zubov trade come up every other page in this thread. That might have cost us multiple Cups. Why? Because it was 30 ass years ago. When do we draw that line on the Buch trade?

 

[Guyute]

Zubov and McDonagh/Miller trades were significantly worse than the Buchnevich trade AINEC.

 

[IDvsEGO]

Zubov and McDonagh/Miller trades were significantly worse than the Buchnevich trade AINEC.

The Mac/miller trade set the rebuild back.

There are 3 misses that had they hit we would’ve probably won a cup.

Kratsov - either he hits, or we draft Dobson and never trade for Trouba.

Anderson - middle 6 center, just an absolute bust. Would’ve been a movable piece for a bigger move or just insane depth.

Mac/miller trade .
Could’ve been so much better. Split the trades. Anything. This one set us back hard.


Buch is nothing compared to those.
Had Buch been Blais + 1st, the hatred of the deal would be a lot less. Blais made sense had he not gotten hurt.

 

[Machinehead]

In 2014 and maybe 2015, I feel like we were close enough where a move here or a move there makes the difference.

I don't think this team is that close. They're a tier away from it.

Yes, they made the ECF, and I'm not trying to dismiss that, but they were out of their depth both times.

The team just needs to be a lot better than it is, and while I don't think that's impossible, it's a bigger project than one move.

 

[noncents]

Can you???

Everyone always says this, and yet here we are, very openly trying to get Trouba off the team and failing.

Yes? Probably. There was still a hole at RW until we put Laf there just this past year, and even then, 3RW has now become a hole.

Like, I don't think they get Vatrano. They would have gotten Tarasenko and Kane because they wanted to try Panarin's friends for a playoff run. Wennberg was a center.

Why do you think those moves precluded them from getting a defenseman? The 4th they traded for Roslovic was bringing in Hanifin? They haven't gotten a top 4 defenseman because they don't think they need one, or at least they didn't until the first signs of trying to move Trouba. And even then, that feels like a salary move, not like they're desperately trying to improve the defense corps. They would just promote Schneider which they've already done.

When do we draw that line on the Buch trade?

we could buy trouba out. there's a cost but you can do it.

also you're wrong that there's a hole at 3RW. there's more of a hole at 3LW.

In 2014 and maybe 2015, I feel like we were close enough where a move here or a move there makes the difference.

I don't think this team is that close. They're a tier away from it.

Yes, they made the ECF, and I'm not trying to dismiss that, but they were out of their depth both times.

The team just needs to be a lot better than it is, and while I don't think that's impossible, it's a bigger project than one move.

i agree with this-a bigger project. Buch in the KZ wing spot would go a long way. Hanafin in for Lindgren would be another.

 

[Oscar Lindberg]

I think re litigating trades is pointless but reflecting on it, god damn does that McDonagh trade suck.

Not a f***ing high end piece came out of that deal

 

[noncents]

In 2014 and maybe 2015, I feel like we were close enough where a move here or a move there makes the difference.

I don't think this team is that close. They're a tier away from it.

Yes, they made the ECF, and I'm not trying to dismiss that, but they were out of their depth both times.

The team just needs to be a lot better than it is, and while I don't think that's impossible, it's a bigger project than one move.

i agree with this-a bigger project. Buch in the KZ wing spot would go a long way. Hanafin in for Lindgren would too.

 

[Machinehead]

I'm not entirely convinced KZB works like it did six years ago.

Zibanejad has declined to the point where he's an active detriment and Kreider has declined a bit to where he can't carry Zibanejad anymore.

Two-thirds of that are not the same player. Having Kreider and Zibanejad together is a bigger problem than who's playing RW.

 

[eco's bones]

The reason the Rangers traded Buchnevich was to fill multiple other holes more cheaply. The Rangers couldn't afford to keep him unless they traded another large contract player and if not Buch it might have been someone else like Kreider. The hope was that Blais had a higher ceiling he could reach. Maybe he did but after Subban f***ed up his knee he was never able to show much......so we got shit value for Buch. Value wise though we were probably always going to lose that deal but when you're out of cap space you have to do something........though some teams (Vegas) seem to figure out alternatives to deal with these issues.

To me the Buch saga is over though. When one player departs it means opportunities for other players. Kakko should have taken on his role but Lafreniere is doing fine as an RW now. The Rangers have a very good team and have a very good stable of prospects. It's a little different and for the better than what we had in the mid to late 2010's IMO. Top 4 team but with needs and things to fix but also a younger team with a number of NHL roster players who still haven't peaked and a development system pushing out some very good prospects. We just have to figure out how to take things a step further in the postseason.

 

[Machinehead]

I think re litigating trades is pointless but reflecting on it, god damn does that McDonagh trade suck.

Not a f***ing high end piece came out of that deal

Howden could have worked. He didn't develop particularly well. I'm willing to just chalk that one up.

Hajek really ground my gears. They targeted him specifically. You guys know how I love going after D prospects who couldn't score when they were 14.

I don't care who you are: role players in the NHL treat lower levels like a chew toy. People running NHL teams should know how good the NHL is and how dominant you have to be as a youth to even carve out a depth role.

Not that I want to harp on that one either -- just an observation.

 

[Ruggs225]

Howden could have worked. He didn't develop particularly well. I'm willing to just chalk that one up.

Hajek really ground my gears. They targeted him specifically. You guys know how I love going after D prospects who couldn't score when they were 14.

I don't care who you are: role players in the NHL treat lower levels like a chew toy. People running NHL teams should know how good the NHL is and how dominant you have to be as a youth to even carve out a depth role.

Not that I want to harp on that one either -- just an observation.

Not that i disagree woth any of this.

But for me the worst part of the trade was expanding it to include JT miller.

That was beyond dumb. Just traded the best forward we drafted since Kovalev for nothing. And he was already good, but not great, at that time. And young!

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

Can you???

Everyone always says this, and yet here we are, very openly trying to get Trouba off the team and failing.

Yes? Probably. There was still a hole at RW until we put Laf there just this past year, and even then, 3RW has now become a hole.

Like, I don't think they get Vatrano. They would have gotten Tarasenko and Kane because they wanted to try Panarin's friends for a playoff run. Wennberg was a center.

Why do you think those moves precluded them from getting a defenseman? The 4th they traded for Roslovic was bringing in Hanifin? They haven't gotten a top 4 defenseman because they don't think they need one, or at least they didn't until the first signs of trying to move Trouba. And even then, that feels like a salary move, not like they're desperately trying to improve the defense corps. They would just promote Schneider which they've already done.

Nobody is saying the Buchnevich trade wasn't a very bad move, but it probably didn't cost them a up, and to be honest, every singular move -no matter how bad it is- has a shelf-life on complaining about it constantly.

We don't see the Zubov trade come up every other page in this thread. That might have cost us multiple Cups. Why? Because it was 30 ass years ago. When do we draw that line on the Buch trade?

Other teams can shed bad contracts. Were the only ones who can’t for some reason.

LA just traded the “worst contract in the league” pretty easily

 

[Machinehead]

Not that i disagree woth any of this.

But for me the worst part of the trade was expanding it to include JT miller.

That was beyond dumb. Just traded the best forward we drafted since Kovalev for nothing. And he was already good, but not great, at that time. And young!

True, but I don't know if I see Miller breaking out here. He also sucked on Tampa.

Miller himself has cited his lack of maturity before getting to Vancouver.

 

[Shesterkybomb]

Again. NO ONE has said it wasn’t a bad trade.
My point was about we could or couldn’t have done if we kept him. If someone wants to hypothesize we wouldn’t have signed Reaves, Goodrow and Nemeth, I can easily hypothesize we couldn’t/wouldn’t have signed Troch. Buch got 5.8, we gave Troch 5.6.

The point is you would make room for players of that caliber when you have a chance to aquire them. If you wouldn't, you're not a good gm.

 

[Ruggs225]

True, but I don't know if I see Miller breaking out here. He also sucked on Tampa.

Miller himself has cited his lack of maturity before getting to Vancouver.

He didnt suck for us. He was scoring the same rare, slightly better actually, than Kreider.

He did have maturity issues, but he already had what 40pts in 60 games. When he was traded and had 56 in 82 the year before. Was his third 20 goal season in a row too.

So he was already breaking out so to speak. But maybe he dowsnt hit what he is now, but he always had the talent. A new coach could have also made a difference.

Even so, having him as a throw in was just downright dumb.

He actually performed better here than TBL though.

 

[Shesterkybomb]

The Buch trade is done. It was a mistake. Every team makes them. Unless we are looking at it as precedence for a similar situation, its useless to bring up.

We act like we are the only team that makes bad trades, and have never benefited from one. You have to take the good with the bad because you are not always going to win. Nobody here seems to be complaining about the Zibanejad trade. We take that as a given, but the Buch trade as a unique instance of blatant incompetence.

Blais at the time was a player who played a noticeable role on a recent cup team, and it wasn't out of the realm of possibility that he could be a good player for us that brought a physical element that we lacked. They recognized the difference in value which is why we also got a 2nd for him. They also knew Blais would cost less, and with us thinking at least 1 of Kakko and Laf would be playing major roles in 21-22, you can start to understand the logic

Blais started slow, got hurt, and that was it for him. The pick was traded for a pretty good rental in Copp, but ultimately we have nothing to show for it. The money we saved was not spent wisely. Kakko and Laf didn't come anywhere close to expectations that next season. Everything that could have gone wrong, did.

The reality is that there was a plausible justification to make the trade. You can disagree with that justification as I do, but there is a world where it could have worked out. It was a questionable move at the time that has been tainted by the events that followed.

I happen to think you almost always lose trades where you are trading the best player because the value of the aggregate return very often does not reach full potential. So in that regard I did not like the move at the time, but I'm over it. We all should be.

Blais was always a bandaid, everyone knew this.

He didnt suck for us. He was scoring the same rare, slightly better actually, than Kreider.

He did have maturity issues, but he already had what 40pts in 60 games. When he was traded and had 56 in 82 the year before. Was his third 20 goal season in a row too.

So he was already breaking out so to speak. But maybe he dowsnt hit what he is now, but he always had the talent. A new coach could have also made a difference.

Even so, having him as a throw in was just downright dumb.

He actually performed better here than TBL though.

Miller said he needed the wake up of being traded twice to become who he is

 

[IDvsEGO]

In 2014 and maybe 2015, I feel like we were close enough where a move here or a move there makes the difference.

I don't think this team is that close. They're a tier away from it.

Yes, they made the ECF, and I'm not trying to dismiss that, but they were out of their depth both times.

The team just needs to be a lot better than it is, and while I don't think that's impossible, it's a bigger project than one move.

I disagree.
Those teams relied even more on goaltending than our current teams do.
We may have been overMatched in the ecf but that’s more of just how good the Tampa and Florida teams were.

 

[Oscar Lindberg]

I don’t have an issue with them trading Miller honestly.

The bigger issue with that deal is I think they went for quantity over quality. It retrospect they should have just said “give us Sergachev ( or someone like that) and you got a deal”

 

[Machinehead]

I don’t have an issue with them trading Miller honestly.

The bigger issue with that deal is I think they went for quantity over quality. It retrospect they should have just said “give us Sergachev ( or someone like that) and you got a deal”

Any time you have an opportunity to go for young, quality NHL talent, you do that.

Most of the quantity tends to turn to shit.

It also depends on where the cutoff is. I'd rather five 5th's than a 2nd, but I'd rather have a 1st than five 5th's.