Put an all-time great player on the worst team of his era. How'd he do?

[VanIslander]

Bathgate, Sundin and Hawerchuk would have... er... wrong thread.

It's hard to think this way, unless you wanna diss someone (fair game).

I honestly struggle to find answers. But i do wonder...

Click to read more...

 

[MadLuke]

would Mario-Wayne first years on those Pens-Oilers give us some clue ? Ovechkin on those caps and so on.

Great are often first overall pick that often start on terrible teams.

the 5 players that shared the ice the most with McDavid his rookie season at 5v5 were:

Eberle
Pouliot
Sekera
Yakupov
Fayne

On the powerplay it was:
Sekera
Ebarle
Letesty
Hall
Pouliot.

Can he have significantly worst linemate than that ? Can a McDavid not face the best Ds and line from the other team more than pre Drai eclosion ? (arguably regardless of who is the second-third line, he always will anyway).

He would do like he did on those last place Oilers, we pretty much have the answer for him, if he manage to keep motivated-older/stronger McDavid would have done better than young McDavid on the worst team on the league

 

[daver]

Mario, Crosby and McDavid joined teams that were the 2nd worst over the preceding four years.

The 83/84 Pens were a last place team. The 03/04 Pens were a last place team. The 14/15 Oilers were 3rd last.

In their first year, Crosby had the 2nd best rookie season by an 18 year old in NHL history (at least for a forward). McDavid finished 3rd in PPG. Mario was 13th in points and 9th in PPG.

None of the teams showed significant improvement.

After their 2nd seasons, all three had established themselves as superstars. All three teams showed significant improvement. Mario's Pens were a bit unlucky to not make the playoffs as they were in a tougher division and conference.

Crosby had immediate success with Malkin being as equally productive offensively. Mario needed a great supporting cast to win his Cups. McDavid, outside of Draisaitl, was lacking in team support until recently.

I would say that all of the player's were not hindered in reaching their offensive primes and peaks. One can debate the contributions each player made to their team's success.

I think this answers the OP.

 

[MXD]

That's the entirety of Roy Worters' career.

 

[Crosby2010]

Even Gretzky on the 1979-'80 Oilers is pretty close to being the worst team in the NHL. He had Blair MacDonald as his linemate.

That being said, a competent GM should be able to build around a generational talent rather easily. It worked with Crosby and Ovechkin, it worked (eventually) with McDavid and it will probably eventually work with Bedard. I will say though that when the Kings got Gretzky in 1988 they were pretty bad but their ownership made some boneheaded moves that worked against the team. So you can be great and that sort of thing still happens.

 

[BadgerBruce]

I’m going to fudge this one just a touch and put Bobby Orr as a rookie on the Seals in 1967 (Orr’s actual rookie season was 66-67, the last hurrah for the O6).

Oh boy. No Esposito, Bucyk, Hodge, Stanfield. Not even baby Sanderson or Eddie Westfall.

Instead, he gets Gerry Ehman (44 points), Bill Hicke (40 points), Charlie Burns (35 points) and Wally Boyer (33 points). Nobody else hit 30 and Ehman (21) was the club’s only 20 goal scorer.

What the Hell does Orr do on that roster? With the original Barry Van Gerbig ownership group? Does Orr essentially save the franchise, and does it even fall into the hands of Charlie-O?

I have no idea what happens to Orr or the Seals. But if you believe Gretzky going to LA changed the NHL, what would Orr going to California 20 years earlier have done?

 

[The Panther]

I have no idea what happens to Orr or the Seals. But if you believe Gretzky going to LA changed the NHL, what would Orr going to California 20 years earlier have done?

Well, these are different. Gretzky's appeal to the L.A. market was that he was the only hockey player Americans had heard of (if they had heard of any), and he was a legit superstar in that context before he arrived to play his first game in L.A. This is before his first game with the Kings:

Orr in 1967 in California would have played in obscurity for his career. I think it would have been a bit like Marcel Dionne from 1976-1982 -- i.e., an appreciative fanbase, but a small one.

 

[jigglysquishy]

California grew by about 10 million people between 1967 and 1987. It's a huge volume of eyeballs to add. And cable exploded too. Very different landscapes.

 

[The Panther]

California grew by about 10 million people between 1967 and 1987. It's a huge volume of eyeballs to add. And cable exploded too. Very different landscapes.

Yeah, I think the cable TV thing was a big game-changer too, right? Like, back in the late-60s were hockey games in California even televised?

 

[Albatros]

Even Gretzky on the 1979-'80 Oilers is pretty close to being the worst team in the NHL. He had Blair MacDonald as his linemate.

Nah, Don Cherry's Rockies were an awful, awful team. A completely dysfunctional shitshow before it became the Mickey Mouse organization (®Gretzky) known as the New Jersey Devils.

 

[The Panther]

You know, I often think of Gretzky's 1979-80 season as one of the most under-rated seasons in history. The only reason it doesn't inspire more universal love is because what he did for the next 10 years blew it away. But how the hell did he do this??:
-- 1st season NHL (aged 18-19)
-- playing for crappy expansion team
-- #1 NHL in PPG
-- #1 NHL in assists
-- 51 goal season
-- tied for scoring lead

Never mind the era, the league competition, etc., but just the fact that a first-year 18-19 year old was FIRST in points per game is almost unbelievable. This causes me to wonder: Besides Gretzky, what is the highest PPG finish (min. 75% or whatever of games) that...
-- a first-year player has finished in scoring?
-- an 18-19 year old has finished in scoring?

Per the first question, the obvious ones that jump to mind are Stastny and Selanne. But Stastny was only 8th in PPG, and Selanne 7th.

As to 18-19 year olds, Mario Lemieux was 9th and Crosby 6th (Ovechkin was 5th, but I think he was 20 years old the whole season).

 

[JackSlater]

In recent times the best players, in an all time sense, generally join the worst team or one close enough due to the draft. Orr joined Boston after a season where the team was a point out of last place and far out of the playoff picture. Hull joined a last place Chicago team. Detroit was middle of the pack when Howe joined. Richard started off on a weak Montreal team, but most of the great Montreal players who came after that started off on a strong team. Of course most of these players quickly had quality reinforcements, perhaps even partly because the players added were so great.

If we think of it in terms of just dropping a prime version of the all time greats onto the worst team in the league, which isn't the same as building around them over the years, Lemieux probably gives us the best example of what is possible from his early career. Individual domination on a team that would still struggle. Even all time greats cannot carry a horrible team to greatness in hockey, but they are incredibly valuable pieces to build around.

 

[daver]

You know, I often think of Gretzky's 1979-80 season as one of the most under-rated seasons in history. The only reason it doesn't inspire more universal love is because what he did for the next 10 years blew it away. But how the hell did he do this??:
-- 1st season NHL (aged 18-19)
-- playing for crappy expansion team
-- #1 NHL in PPG
-- #1 NHL in assists
-- 51 goal season
-- tied for scoring lead

Never mind the era, the league competition, etc., but just the fact that a first-year 18-19 year old was FIRST in points per game is almost unbelievable. This causes me to wonder: Besides Gretzky, what is the highest PPG finish (min. 75% or whatever of games) that...
-- a first-year player has finished in scoring?
-- an 18-19 year old has finished in scoring?

Per the first question, the obvious ones that jump to mind are Stastny and Selanne. But Stastny was only 8th in PPG, and Selanne 7th.

As to 18-19 year olds, Mario Lemieux was 9th and Crosby 6th (Ovechkin was 5th, but I think he was 20 years old the whole season).

The Oilers were hardly a "crappy expansion team". They were16th (out of 21 teams) while another "expansion team" was 14th in the league.

FUN FACT: Crosby was better than Wayne at the same age until age 20. Wayne started in the NHL at age 18 years and 8 1/2 months, Crosby hit that age in late March of 2006.

 

[Crosby2010]

The Oilers were hardly a "crappy expansion team". They were16th (out of 21 teams) while another "expansion team" was 14th in the league.

FUN FACT: Crosby was better than Wayne at the same age until age 20. Wayne started in the NHL at age 18 years and 8 1/2 months, Crosby hit that age in late March of 2006.

I think there was a time in Crosby's first two seasons where we weren't sure how high he was going to peak and he was in the neighbourhood of Gretzky's first two years. Year 2 Gretzky had 164 points and shattered the points and assists records. Crosby had 120 points. Both won the hardware and if you take into account the levels of scoring in the NHL it is closer than it looks, but I think you still give the edge to Gretzky here. By Year 3 Gretzky took off at a level that was impossible for Crosby or anyone to mimic. I have always felt Crosby's first two or three years were more on the level with Mario. By 1988 Mario hit another stride that Crosby never did, but I'd say the first three years in the NHL they were similar. Consider the 1987 Canada Cup the time Mario hit into another universe.

Besides Gretzky, what is the highest PPG finish (min. 75% or whatever of games) that...
-- a first-year player has finished in scoring?
-- an 18-19 year old has finished in scoring?

Per the first question, the obvious ones that jump to mind are Stastny and Selanne. But Stastny was only 8th in PPG, and Selanne 7th.

As to 18-19 year olds, Mario Lemieux was 9th and Crosby 6th (Ovechkin was 5th, but I think he was 20 years old the whole season).

McDavid did not quite play 75% of the NHL season, and he only finished with 48 points in 45 games, but he was 3rd in PPG with 1.07. Patrick Kane (1.29) and Jamie Benn (1.09) were the only ones ahead of him. But that is only 55% of the season. Thank God this is the only injury issue he has had in his NHL career (he also got in a fight in his last year of junior hockey and hurt his hand and missed time). But I am thinking this is probably your best example. McDavid was 18, and you can make a decent case he gets 90 points that year. Who knows.

Lindros finished 3rd in PPG in 1994, but he was a 2nd year guy, and 20 years old.

Yeah it just doesn't happen. Gretzky doing this in 1980 is utterly spectacular. Dionne had a great year in 1980 as well, and he was the only one within shouting distance for the Hart that year against Gretzky. It gets underrated because Gretzky re-wrote the record book right after this but an 18 year old stepping into the NHL like that and pretty much being the best player in the NHL already is unheard of. Crosby was not the best player in the NHL in 2006. He was by the following year but Ovechkin was better that year and obviously Thornton and Jagr had better years. McDavid was not the best in the NHL either in his rookie year. Kane was. Crosby was still better and Benn and Seguin had good years too.

The best I can see for rookies that isn't mentioned is Syl Apps. He is 21 in his Calder winning year but he's 2nd in points and 2nd in PPG.
Boom Boom Geoffrion is 20 but is 8th in PPG and 6th in points
Gilbert Perreault finishes 6th in goals in 1971, but he's 20 years old
Joe Nieuwendyk is 22 years old and finished 5th in goals in 1988.

Yeah, that's about the best I can find and Gretzky just obliterates those guys. 18 year olds don't step into the NHL and dominate. Bedard was highly touted and he was well down the pecking order. He might be Perreault-type of level as an 18 year old that Perreault was as a 20 year old. But that's still miles from 18 year old Gretzky.

Nah, Don Cherry's Rockies were an awful, awful team. A completely dysfunctional shitshow before it became the Mickey Mouse organization (®Gretzky) known as the New Jersey Devils.

The Oilers were 16th of 21 teams. They squeaked into the playoffs with the last spot and got the Flyers 1st round, fresh off their 35 game unbeaten record earlier in the year. They got swept in three games but took two of them to overtime. 69 points they had and the worst in the league was 51. Which was the Rockies. The Oilers had the 2nd worst goals against in the NHL. You have a young Messier (33 points) and Kevin Lowe who are both rookies. Gretzky had 137 points, followed by Blair MacDonald at 94 who was on his line and that was basically half of the NHL points he had his entire career. Then Stan Weir at 66 points. Honestly, who on earth is playing with him offensively here? No wonder he was in on pretty much half of the Oilers goals that year, who else was there? Then look at their goalies. Dave Dryden who might have been thought of as the most solid of them all was 2-7-3 that year. Somehow none other than Ron Low was 8-2-1. But they had a carousel of goalies that year and none were decent. Eddie Mio, Jim Corsi, yowzers! That was a bad team that only Gretzky managed to get crawled into the playoffs. No wonder he won the Hart that year.

 

[Albatros]

They were not great, but they did come in as the best WHA team and their key players had experience playing together with success. Sather was also an able coach that had played with some of them himself.

 

[MadLuke]

FUN FACT: Crosby was better than Wayne at the same age until age 20. Wayne started in the NHL at age 18 years and 8 1/2 months, Crosby hit that age in late March of 2006.

Gretzky scored 378 goals as an atom, 182 pts-70 goals in 64 games his first and only OMJHL season, 104 in the wha playing against adult scoring 20 pts in 13 playoff games, Hart winner first nhl season.

Young Crosby was maybe closer to young Gretzky than adult Crosby was to adult Gretzky, but I am not sure if it can be said that he was better.

Gretzky lead his grown up WHA team in scoring by almost 50% his pre-draft year, he scored 182 pts in the junior before, what would he have done as a junior that season.....

They were16th (out of 21 teams)

With the tie for Art Ross playing for them, the crappy is a speculation of what they would have had with a regular good rookie instead and 16th of 21 is still bottom 6

 

[daver]

Young Crosby was maybe closer to young Gretzky than adult Crosby was to adult Gretzky, but I am not sure if it can be said that he was better.

More of a fun play on the fact that Wayne started his 18 year old season 6 months earlier than Crosby.

Crosby is still the only teenager in NA sports history to win a scoring title.

 

[MadLuke]

Crosby is still the only teenager in NA sports history to win a scoring title.

Just because of the Art Ross tie breaking rule, would it have been less game first or allowed tie, Gretzky would have, the goal game breaker only had 2 goals difference.

Gretzky was younger in 1980 than Crosby in 2007 by 170 days.

It is pure trivia, like you say, not really an argument that 19 years old Crosby > 19 years old Wayne.

19 years old Gretzky scored:
68 points in 34 games in the 1980 season and 83 in 47 beginning of the 1981 seasons for a 151 pts in 81 games type of season, not that far from what was the all-time record (152 pts) Esposito record season.

That Gretzky 19 years old 365 days year:

NHL Stats

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Player	S/C	Pos	GP	G	A	P
Wayne Gretzky	L	C	81​	50​	101​	151​
Marcel Dionne	R	C	84​	55​	79​	134​
Mike Rogers	L	C	84​	57​	75​	132​
Mike Bossy	R	R	83​	70​	55​	125​
Charlie Simmer	L	L	74​	69​	50​	119​
Bryan Trottier	L	C	85​	34​	80​	114​
Rick Middleton	R	R	82​	44​	69​	113​
Kent Nilsson	L	C	82​	43​	67​	110​
Darryl Sittler	L	C	82​	52​	55​	107​
Bernie Federko	L	C	80​	38​	65​	103​

That Crosby 19 years old calendar year:

Player	Season	Team	S/C	Pos	GP	G	A	P
Sidney Crosby	20062007​	PIT	L	C	79​	36​	84​	120​
Joe Thornton	20062007​	SJS	L	C	82​	22​	92​	114​
Vincent Lecavalier	20062007​	TBL	L	C	82​	52​	56​	108​
Dany Heatley	20062007​	OTT	L	L	82​	50​	55​	105​
Martin St. Louis	20062007​	TBL	L	R	82​	43​	59​	102​
Marian Hossa	20062007​	ATL	L	R	82​	43​	57​	100​
Joe Sakic	20062007​	COL	L	C	82​	36​	64​	100​
Jaromir Jagr	20062007​	NYR	L	R	82​	30​	66​	96​
Marc Savard	20062007​	BOS	L	C	82​	22​	74​	96​
Daniel Brière	20062007​	BUF	R	C	81​	32​	63​	95​

I am sure there (Orr-Lemieux and others) that a some age as an argument to keep up or better than Gretzky, but before the Suter incident it will be hard to be clearly anyone else at any age having a better 365 days of hockey, starting from a really young age.

 

[Dog]

They lead the team usually in points.

 

[MadLuke]

One thing about our examples, there were young version of the players, that were happy to play in the nhl, not expected to win, fought for that next contract and wanted to prove themselve.

Any example of olders established players , usually a team will get motivated, some money and perform or they will have to trade the super player that will request a move.

Mario in 2003 once everyone left, maybe:

Carolina Hurricanes vs. Pittsburgh Penguins Box Score: March 6, 2003 | Hockey-Reference.com

Get the latest box score updates on the Carolina Hurricanes vs. Pittsburgh Penguins game played on March 6, 2003 on Hockey-Reference.com

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When Richard Lintner-Tarnstrom are the 2 skater with the most minutes..... Shawn Heins played 20 minutes a game.... that could be close to has bad as it got in the modern era.

Very old Lemieux obviously, but he was leading the Art Ross race when Kovalev left back to New York scoring 1.66 ppg.

At that point, keeping motivated when it is impossible to win anything could be harder.

 

[Moose Head]

I’m going to fudge this one just a touch and put Bobby Orr as a rookie on the Seals in 1967 (Orr’s actual rookie season was 66-67, the last hurrah for the O6).

Oh boy. No Esposito, Bucyk, Hodge, Stanfield. Not even baby Sanderson or Eddie Westfall.

Instead, he gets Gerry Ehman (44 points), Bill Hicke (40 points), Charlie Burns (35 points) and Wally Boyer (33 points). Nobody else hit 30 and Ehman (21) was the club’s only 20 goal scorer.

What the Hell does Orr do on that roster? With the original Barry Van Gerbig ownership group? Does Orr essentially save the franchise, and does it even fall into the hands of Charlie-O?

I have no idea what happens to Orr or the Seals. But if you believe Gretzky going to LA changed the NHL, what would Orr going to California 20 years earlier have done?

I think he does what Potvin did for the horrible Isles franchise. If the Isles could build a great team around Potvin, I think a team could be built around Orr. Also, the Bruins were pretty bad around the time Orr joined.

 

[reckoning]

NHL scoring leaders on Jan. 18/1980:

1. Dionne 90
2. Lafleur 81
3. Taylor 72
4. Simmer 69
5. Trottier 62
6. Gretzky 62

It's amazing that Gretzky made up as much ground as he did over the last half of the season. But at this stage, the Oilers were having a dismal year: 19th overall, only three points ahead of 21st place Washington. 7 points out of a playoff spot. By no coincidence, when Gretzky started his torrid pace down the stretch, the Oilers started winning games. He was the reason they finished 16th and made the playoffs.

 

[The Panther]

The cusp of age 20 was the keynote moment for Gretzky.

As noted, the Oilers sucked in 1979-80 and only made the playoffs (barely) as the lowest possible seed after a slightly hot final 8 or 10 games. Gretzky with 137 points.

For much of 1980-81, the Oilers also sucked... at some points up to mid-season, they were actually worse than in 1979-80 and Gretzky's scoring pace was behind his rookie pace.

The calendar year of 1981 is when the switch flipped. In October-December 1980, the Oilers were 8-21-6, which is awful. Then, in Jan.-April 1981, they went 21-14-10, which is pretty good (incl. 7-1-4 in the final dozen games).

The third season (1981-82), they were suddenly a league power, but I think this was greatly assisted by the creation of the Smythe division.

Anyway, if you want to pinpoint the exact moment when Gretzky arrived as "Gretzky", it is January of 1981 -- technically the first month of the 1980s, so maybe that's appropriate. Wayne turned 20 at the end of this month.

 

[DitchMarner]

Hyperbole: The Leafs were the worst team in the League and a laughing stock when they drafted Auston Matthews. He had a magnificent rookie season, scoring 40 goals and winning the Calder, and he instantly carried them to the playoffs.

Realistically, the Leafs were technically the worst team in 2016, but they weren't that bad for a team that finished 30th. Matthews, Nylander, Marner, Hyman and Brown broke in together (some of them had a little bit of NHL experience already) and the Leafs made the playoffs and started an eight year playoff streak. Now if they can just figure out winning in the playoffs.

 

[Johnny Engine]

Hyperbole: The Leafs were the worst team in the League and a laughing stock when they drafted Auston Matthews. He had a magnificent rookie season, scoring 40 goals and winning the Calder, and he instantly carried them to the playoffs.

Realistically, the Leafs were technically the worst team in 2016, but they weren't that bad for a team that finished 30th. Matthews, Nylander, Marner, Hyman and Brown broke in together (some of them had a little bit of NHL experience already) and the Leafs made the playoffs and started an eight year playoff streak. Now if they can just figure out winning in the playoffs.

From game 82 to opening night:
In: Matthews, Marner, Andersen, Hyman, Brown, Zaitsev, Martin, C. Carrick, Polak and a return to the lineup for Kadri, Van Riemsdyk, Hunwick, Holland and Michalek
Out: Boyes, Brennan, Campbell, S. Carrick, Corrado, Froese, Gauthier, Grabner, Greening, Laich, Lindberg, Parenteau, Sparks
Remaining: Rielly, Nylander, Gardiner, Bozak, Komarov, Marincin.

The worst team in the NHL definitely did play one of those games, but I don't think Auston Matthews was in attendance.