Roster Building Thread - Part XI (Off-season edition)

[Profet]

Why do we keep talking about these ancient moves?

Skrudland and Keane can replace Messier.... Right?

Watching those two raise the cup in Dallas felt like rock bottom.

Boy was I wrong.

 

[RGY]

https://x.com/i/web/status/1816246195276374087

1st of the season in a no defense summer league. LMAO. Guy is in mid season form ready for Training Camp. Bum.

 

[Profet]

https://x.com/i/web/status/1816246195276374087

1st of the season in a no defense summer league. LMAO. Guy is in mid season form ready for Training Camp. Bum.

In the AHL... that's probably not a goal.

 

[Barnaby]

Miller's stick checking is at the very, very top echelon of the entire league. To give that up to get an extra hit in will lead to many more goals against.

Purse swinging Tom Poti 2.0

 

[Barnaby]

Brodzinski is a bottom six guy who can't kill penalties. The Rangers tried a couple of seasons ago, he's just not adept at it.

So yeah... a bottom six center who doesn't kill penalties. He's a tweener... probably too good for the AHL and not good enough or adaptable enough for the NHL.

As a 13th forward? Sure.
As a short term injury replacement for a middle sixer? Sure
As a full time NHLer? ehh........

You describing Brodzinski or Kappo Kakko?

 

[Barnaby]

yup.

yet people still handwave it or try to justify it. it's noncents.

if they keep buch, they can't sign goodrow reaves and nemeth.

it was The Move that ruined us.

I’m starting to think they shouldn’t have drafted Hugh Jessiman.

The money wasn’t going to work with Buch. Everyone knows it was an awful trade. If we don’t trade Buch, then they probably make other moves. Right or wrong, it seemed like the writing was on the wall for a couple years with him. He seemed like a guy they didn’t want to invest in. Kakko was to be the heir apparent. He’s been garbage. Time to move on.

 

[Shesterkybomb]

Cuylle has to get more ice time this year. I hope for some PP time and PK time this season.

Why Will Cuylle is interesting, imperfect fit in Rangers top 6 - Forever Blueshirts

Breaking down whether Will Cuylle is a fit in the New York Rangers' top-six forward group.

www.foreverblueshirts.com

I can see him scoring 20 -25 goals this coming season.


Rangers need to give the youngsters special teams PP and PK time. It's gonna be their team soon. I'd like to see Lafreniere get PK time too this season.

Nah, he is what he is, and that's fine, but he's a bottom 6 winger who forechecks and is physical, he can add some points but expecting him to hit 25 goals isn't right. Ideally he's on our 4th line with Carrick and whoever if we are planning on a cup parade.

https://x.com/i/web/status/1816246195276374087

1st of the season in a no defense summer league. LMAO. Guy is in mid season form ready for Training Camp. Bum.

15 goal game to boot lol

If Brodz is on this team for more than 5 games next year I'm gonna pull my hair out, my chest hair first.

 

[Barnaby]

I don’t have an issue with them trading Miller honestly.

The bigger issue with that deal is I think they went for quantity over quality. It retrospect they should have just said “give us Sergachev ( or someone like that) and you got a deal”

The rumor at the time was that Cirelli, Point, and Sergachev weren’t on table. The Rangers targeted Hajek who was seen as a tier below, but had the talent to be a 2nd pair defenseman. Obviously, not.

Howden should’ve spent more time in the AHL. He might’ve worked here, but still doubtful he ever would’ve been a difference maker.

I’m sure Yzerman’s response to giving up Sergachev instead wouldn’t have been “you got a deal.” He was a very high end prospect. Plus, Yzerman had Gorton’s number.

 

[Barnaby]

Cuylle has to get more ice time this year. I hope for some PP time and PK time this season.

Why Will Cuylle is interesting, imperfect fit in Rangers top 6 - Forever Blueshirts

Breaking down whether Will Cuylle is a fit in the New York Rangers' top-six forward group.

www.foreverblueshirts.com

I can see him scoring 20 -25 goals this coming season.


Rangers need to give the youngsters special teams PP and PK time. It's gonna be their team soon. I'd like to see Lafreniere get PK time too this season.

Probably not a great idea or realistic to break up one of the top PP’s in the league for guys like Kakko and Cuylle who are bottom six players. Lafreniere? Sure.

If any can contribute on PK then great.

Actually, I’d prefer to ship Kakko out if we get a good offer.

 

[RangersFan1994]

He won't..that's why they brought in Smith

They brought in Smith cause 5 on 5 play was an issue. Having another option on special teams while it keeps the vets fresh is not a bad idea.

 

[Barnaby]

Why do we keep talking about these ancient moves?

Skrudland and Keane can replace Messier.... Right?

Watching those two raise the cup in Dallas felt like rock bottom.

Boy was I wrong.

Yelling at clouds.

The best is the imagined argument that people are arguing that the Buch trade was good.

Few if any said it at the time. No one is saying it now.

 

[UAGoalieGuy]

Based on the Athletics model, Rangers have the 7th best roster efficiency in the league (up from 11th last season. Even w Trouba who is a D).

Mika is dragging the Rangers down as well. One thing to call out, Lindgren isn't included as he hasn't signed yet.

Also why can I put images in my posts it's grayed out?

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5646246/2024/07/25/nhl-contract-efficiency-rankings-2024/?campaign=5888993&source=dailyemail&userId=1154720

 

[SA16]

Based on the Athletics model, Rangers have the 7th best roster efficiency in the league (up from 11th last season. Even w Trouba who is a D).

Mika is dragging the Rangers down as well. One thing to call out, Lindgren isn't included as he hasn't signed yet.

Also why can I put images in my posts it's grayed out?

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5646246/2024/07/25/nhl-contract-efficiency-rankings-2024/?campaign=5888993&source=dailyemail&userId=1154720

It's an interesting article but also a flawed method because, for example, someone like Toronto would rank better in these rankings with 10M of empty cap space instead of having William Nylander (and it's not necessarily the case that that extra 10M could even be used in a more efficient way).

I may have missed it but I also don't understand his rankings since this list is not sorted 1-32 by either annual surplus or total surplus. I guess it's some combination of the two but it doesn't explain that.

 

[UAGoalieGuy]

It's an interesting article but also a flawed method because, for example, someone like Toronto would rank better in these rankings with 10M of empty cap space instead of having William Nylander (and it's not necessarily the case that that extra 10M could even be used in a more efficient way).

I may have missed it but I also don't understand his rankings since this list is not sorted 1-32 by either annual surplus or total surplus. I guess it's some combination of the two but it doesn't explain that.

Yeah and it's a point in time, next year the Rangers it will look totally different next summer with the new Laff, Shesh and Miller contracts.

 

[Mikachu93]

Based on the Athletics model, Rangers have the 7th best roster efficiency in the league (up from 11th last season. Even w Trouba who is a D).

Mika is dragging the Rangers down as well. One thing to call out, Lindgren isn't included as he hasn't signed yet.

Also why can I put images in my posts it's grayed out?

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5646246/2024/07/25/nhl-contract-efficiency-rankings-2024/?campaign=5888993&source=dailyemail&userId=1154720

The Smith one should be 3.75m because that's what the Rangers negotiated his cap hit to in the trade.

That would make his contract a surplus value to us.

 

[CTTribe73]

Given all the sturm and drang around here it's borderline shocking the Rangers come in sixth on this list:

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5646246/2024/07/25/nhl-contract-efficiency-rankings-2024/

 

[Profet]

sturm and drang

Hey hey... don't make me google stuff.

Given all the sturm and drang around here it's borderline shocking the Rangers come in sixth on this list:

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5646246/2024/07/25/nhl-contract-efficiency-rankings-2024/

Wait until Lindgren gets signed to an "F"

 

[kovazub94]

from 2021-2022
Strome made 4.5, he walked, troch was 5.6

+1.1mm

buch would have been 5.8

goodrow was 3.6
nemeth was 2.5
reaves was 1.75
blais was 1.5

accounting for buch and troch, there is 2.5mm left for those depth spots.

the money worked... your justification is ass.



it's not hard to pull up a calculator and puckpedia.

Your saving calculation is wrong (an approach).

Goodrow was signed to be a middle 6'er where he was primarily playing for the first two seasons with the Rangers before last season (and got "moved" right after in the offseason without retention). This means that even if front office went after another middle-6 player, the "saving" wouldn't be the whole $3.6m - maybe $1m give or take.

Nemeth is next and again - there was a need for a vet D to play on the bottom pair. Wrong player but was $2.5m really an overpayment for this role? Hardly but I will give you another $0.5m

Reaves - $0.5m savings. Blais was meant to play on 3rd line so $1.75 is close enough already.

Overall we are talking $2m saving which is what you need to use for this purpose - specifically if the front office would be able to keep Buch (whom I loved and defended well before he blossomed into a bona fide 1st liner) and Strome / Trocheck as top-6 center. Doesn't seem like math is working

 

[noncents]

Your saving calculation is wrong (an approach).

Goodrow was signed to be a middle 6'er where he was primarily playing for the first two seasons with the Rangers before last season (and got "moved" right after in the offseason without retention). This means that even if front office went after another middle-6 player, the "saving" wouldn't be the whole $3.6m - maybe $1m give or take.

Nemeth is next and again - there was a need for a vet D to play on the bottom pair. Wrong player but was $2.5m really an overpayment for this role? Hardly but I will give you another $0.5m

Reaves - $0.5m savings. Blais was meant to play on 3rd line so $1.75 is close enough already.

Overall we are talking $2m saving which is what you need to use for this purpose - specifically if the front office would be able to keep Buch (whom I loved and defended well before he blossomed into a bona fide 1st liner) and Strome / Trocheck as top-6 center. Doesn't seem like math is working

The calculation isn't wrong.

There's 2 things at play. One is your math, which seems to assume that it's a given that salary must be allocated in a certain way to fill certain roster spots (2.5-3.6 for middle 6 F, 2-2.5 for 3Ld, etc.). What I posted was just how it would have been possible to ice a roster with Buch in that year.

Attached is a rough side by side of actual cap allocation for those 4 spots vs a Buch version.


That's all kind of besides the point, though. The real issue at hand is that there's no law that stipulates that certain amounts must be allocated to certain roster spots. Whether the Rangers necessarily operate that way is a different story.

What i'm trying to express vis-a-vis the Buch salary cap issue is that the way a team *should* be run is to prioritize signing top talent, and then fitting everyone else around that. If that means 4/6 bottom 6 spots are ELCs or minimum deals, so be it. You can find minimum deal guys who can contribute grit, depth scoring, PK, and locker room intangibles - they're available every year.

Buch was not identified as a necessary puzzle piece around which the rest of the roster should have been squeezed. That was the primary error. If you assume as I do that the optimal roster construction included Buchnevich, then the math would have worked. Trocheck too.

As far as @Machinehead's contention that (terrible return aside) trading Buch has been vindicated in some way by Zibanejad/Kreider's decline since 2021, I've made it clear that it's not just the performance of *that line* that retaining Buch would have affected. It's the perennial outflow of value from NYR coffers to the rest of the league to fill the spot that he left.

Machinehead and Barnaby and everyone else want to blame Kakko for not being the player they expected him to be, not being the player that was deserving of the red carpet they laid out for him. That's bullshit. the player has been disappointing but has been positive value based on cap allocation.

Let it be a f***ing lesson to NYR - don't trade your top line wing for unproven prospect, regardless of pedigree. Definitely don't do it for Sammy f***ing Blais...

 

[kovazub94]

The calculation isn't wrong.

There's 2 things at play. One is your math, which seems to assume that it's a given that salary must be allocated in a certain way to fill certain roster spots (2.5-3.6 for middle 6 F, 2-2.5 for 3Ld, etc.). What I posted was just how it would have been possible to ice a roster with Buch in that year.

Attached is a rough side by side of actual cap allocation for those 4 spots vs a Buch version.


That's all kind of besides the point, though. The real issue at hand is that there's no law that stipulates that certain amounts must be allocated to certain roster spots. Whether the Rangers necessarily operate that way is a different story.

What i'm trying to express vis-a-vis the Buch salary cap issue is that the way a team *should* be run is to prioritize signing top talent, and then fitting everyone else around that. If that means 4/6 bottom 6 spots are ELCs or minimum deals, so be it. You can find minimum deal guys who can contribute grit, depth scoring, PK, and locker room intangibles - they're available every year.

Buch was not identified as a necessary puzzle piece around which the rest of the roster should have been squeezed. That was the primary error. If you assume as I do that the optimal roster construction included Buchnevich, then the math would have worked. Trocheck too.

As far as @Machinehead's contention that (terrible return aside) trading Buch has been vindicated in some way by Zibanejad/Kreider's decline since 2021, I've made it clear that it's not just the performance of *that line* that retaining Buch would have affected. It's the perennial outflow of value from NYR coffers to the rest of the league to fill the spot that he left.

Machinehead and Barnaby and everyone else want to blame Kakko for not being the player they expected him to be, not being the player that was deserving of the red carpet they laid out for him. That's bullshit. the player has been disappointing but has been positive value based on cap allocation.

Let it be a f***ing lesson to NYR - don't trade your top line wing for unproven prospect, regardless of pedigree. Definitely don't do it for Sammy f***ing Blais...

If you don’t assign salary to certain positions then why not go a step further and put it against the front office for not finding $2m 1st liner?

You’re clearly trying to fit your narrative especially with the last two $750k spots which you’d be the first in line (or close enough) to blame Drury for playing AHLer or way over the hill vets like we’ve seen in Bonino and Nash in the AHL - in these positions.

With hindsight - was it a mistake moving Buchnevich? Sure was. Were there good enough reasons to do so in the context of team’s state and direction at that time - yes there were too.

 

[CTTribe73]

Based on the Athletics model, Rangers have the 7th best roster efficiency in the league (up from 11th last season. Even w Trouba who is a D).

Mika is dragging the Rangers down as well. One thing to call out, Lindgren isn't included as he hasn't signed yet.

Also why can I put images in my posts it's grayed out?

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5646246/2024/07/25/nhl-contract-efficiency-rankings-2024/?campaign=5888993&source=dailyemail&userId=1154720

Mika isn't 'dragging' anything down. He's negative value but easily salvageable with a bounce back season. The Huberdeau and Krug deals are the definition of 'dragging a team down'.

Also you cannot have one of the least skilled and now least valuable player on your team wearing the 'C'.

 

[nsvoyageurs]

I'm upset about cutting Gordie Howe in 1943.

I'm not this old, but I wonder if they had signed Herb Carnegie in the late 1940s, that he would've been an impact player for them. They offered him deals after a tryout in training camp, but the low balled him and wanted to send him to one of their minor league affiliates. He took a pass on those and never played in the NHL. He was a star in the Junior/Senior leagues in Quebec and Ontario; played with Jean Beliveau who said he was good enough to play in the NHL at that time when there were only 6 teams. Would've played in the NHL years before Willie O'Ree with the Bruins in the late 1950s.

Anyone unfamiliar with Herb Carnegie, you can Google him. He was elected in the Hockey Hall of Fame sometime within the last 5 years as a builder. Started the Future Aces program.

Herb Carnegie - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[RangersFan1994]

 

[RangersFan1994]

 

[noncents]

If you don’t assign salary to certain positions then why not go a step further and put it against the front office for not finding $2m 1st liner?

You’re clearly trying to fit your narrative especially with the last two $750k spots which you’d be the first in line (or close enough) to blame Drury for playing AHLer or way over the hill vets like we’ve seen in Bonino and Nash in the AHL - in these positions.

i have no idea what you're saying - especially the first paragraph. how is "finding a 1st line player for 2mm" related to signing buch?

you don't sign roster spots. you sign talent. Accumulate as much quality NHL talent as you can manage to get your grubby paws on. And when you strike gold - Buchnevich - lock it up.