Roster Building Thread - Part XI (Off-season edition)

[The Crypto Guy]

Fair, but he looked injured even before the playoffs.

He was on fire before the playoffs started, he had 7 goals and 15 assists in the last 18 regular season games. Everything went downhill after the Jensen hit.

 

[Machinehead]

Joshua could be a 1 yr wonder just saying !

He could be but the analytics back him up.

 

[NYR Viper]

He could be but the analytics back him up.

To me he’s a better bet than Goodrow. If they could find a way to trade Goodrow and add Joshua it makes sense. Joshua is a 3rd liner at a good age.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

I'll do the same:
You -
Me *


-Fox has never been toolsy. If you didn't have a problem with it before, then you're just looking to have a problem with it to absolve Lindgren. Nothing in his game really fell off his year other than his partner and ES chance generation which again, we've gone over.

* I know that he's never been a toolsy player, and I'm not trying to use that to absolve lindgren so stop trying to manipulate my wording. I literally said that I don't have an issue with Lindgren because we all know what he is and he's consistently the same player so bitching about it now to the extent that people are when they haven't in the past to me is absurd. You brought up regression, I brought up the fact that I look at Fox and would like to actually see him develop his tools more and that from that standpoint I've been more disappointed with Fox this past year and then I was lindgren. Lindgren was exactly what I expected, Fox had room to ad in his personal tools and personal development to expand his effectiveness. The point here is that lindgren is already hit his ceiling, and for as good as Fox's based on his age I expected him to take another step. Taking a step isn't just about getting more points, there's other things that are involved in that and I think that he has a lot of room left to become even better than he is. That's why I was disappointed


- Lindgren absolutely has a negative impact on Fox's offensive production. If he didn't, he wouldn't be getting benched every time they need a goal. You can't have it both ways.

* By that logic then you're also acknowledging that fox is a terrible defensive player because if he wasn't then he wouldn't be being benched at the end of games or on the PK. Fair enough?

- Your examples from decades ago continue to be irrelevant, the game is different now. The good defense first defensemen are all adequate if not very good at getting the puck up ice and most of them are pretty good or just good outright at offense and fall into the 2 way category. Lindgren has never been good at either. It's why I've wanted him off the top pair before this year. His heavy regression is why I want him off the roster entirely. His offense was as bad as it always was this year, his defense is what fell off a cliff. No one bled chances against more than he did.

* I'm not going to go through and list the other 31 teams top pairings, I don't think it's really necessary because you're going through hyperbole right now by trying to say that Lindgren is the second worst defenseman on a top pyram in the NHL. That's what you said in an earlier post and it's ridiculous. It's also asinine to suggest that no other team other than the rangers have a defensive defenseman paired with an offensive defenseman on their top pairing. Not every team in the league can trout out makar and tires as a top pair. If you actually stop trying to manipulate to get to a point in this argument you could easily come up with 10 teams right off the bat that have at least one defenseman on their top pairing that is worse than lindgren.

- He'll get 4+ million because thats how NHL salaries work. His QO is 3.6. He isn't making a shade more than that and definitely is not going to agree to get non tendered to sign for less a year than he just made.

* I know how the finances work, I've been the one that's been saying that he's going to get a raise. Other people are saying he's only worth $2 million which is absolutely stupid. If you've listened to anybody talking about what the market's like for the available ufas this summer you would be puking on your own shoes. The numbers that are getting kicked around for players like Dillon right now are insane. The reason it's happening is that there just aren't enough defensemen capable of actually playing 20 minutes of game and filling top 4D slots in the league as it's gotten bigger. So even these marginal top four defensemen are going to be paid significantly. People can bitch and moan about lindgren all they want bought at the end of the day whether it's here or somewhere else he's going to be a top four defenseman somewhere. Additionally if it's not going to be here, then the rangers are going to have to go find another one to fill his spot and potentially pay that player $5 or 6 million a year which they can't even afford. This is part of why when people start complaining about the players that are here and what they make and how they want to get rid of that player I always ask who are you going to get to fill that and how are you going to get them and afford them. Most people gloss over that and just only want to focus on getting rid of somebody but they never stop and actually come up with a concrete and feasible option to replace that player that the team can actually afford in salary and in asset cost. You're either going to be trading assets away to try to get a player that is technically controllable and isn't going to cost you an arm and a leg on your cap, or you're going to overpay for a player in free agency. This organization doesn't exactly have a ton of asset Capital to piss away right now for random players that they hope will be better than what they have here now, nor do they have the cap space to go get into bidding wars for unrestricted free agents. That's the exact reason why I'm so hesitant to just shit all over Lindgren and say get him out of here and then hope that we can find somebody else to fill the role. If we had some better defensive depth in our system then it could be more feasible but we don't. This is part of the reason why I have suggested if they do decide to trade kakko that they look at a team like the ducks which has a ton of high quality young defenseman that are on their way and try to see if they can make a swap there.


- I do enjoy how you completely avoided answering this so I'll ask it again. If the top 10 D-men in the league, who has a partner weaker than the one who has been attached to Fox? If you think teams split their top guys (they usually don't btw) then this should be an easy exercise for you. I already gave you the one example I think you can make a case for and I'll tell you, it's the ONLY one that exists.


- Lindgren struggled independent of every other D on this team. No one is frustrated with how him or how he's being used because other guys struggled against Florida. We're frustrated with him and how he's used because he struggled for 82 games and 3 rounds of the playoffs.

Hyperbole, And you could easily look at the Florida series and say that Miller played worse than he did. If you actually watch that series objectively Miller consistently panicked with the park, turned it over, chucked it into the middle of the ice and he was a guy that the team needed to rely on to do more because he has the tools to do more. Lindgren literally did what he can and what he is, it's not his fault that other people on here for some reason expect him to be more than what he is. I'm not absolving him, for some reason people still don't want to acknowledge the fact that he goes back from the majority of the pucks and his partner does absolutely nothing to hold up for chucking pressure to help him. It's been a theme of that pairing for 3 years at least and it shouldn't be a surprise to anybody that the first guy back to get a puck that doesn't have anybody slowing down for checking is going to get absolutely blown up every time or he's going to just Chuck the puck away because he's under pressure. Even good defenseman struggle in that situation if they don't have teammates passively interfering with fore checkers and just getting into the way to slow them down. Does that fix everything that's wrong with lindgren and his ability to transition to Puck quickly and effectively, absolutely not. But does it amplify the issues that he has, you bet!


- The one thing I do agree with you on is improving the quality of the D overall. Thats a must for this team this off season. Part of that plan should include moving on from Lindgren who is in over his head playing top 4 minutes and will make too much money to play on a bottom pair.


* I think there's two focuses for this. The first one is the structure of our forwards and what we do on breakouts has got to change. For some stupid reason this organization continues putting the wingers stretched up by the red line for these fire passes from below the circles in the defensive zone up to those wingers so that they can just touch and chip it into the other end, But it does absolutely nothing if the weak side wingers aren't already crashing into the offensive zone and able to immediately get pressure on the puck, otherwise it's basically just a free breakout for the other team. For some reason this organization has employed this for years and multiple coaching staffs, and we rarely have wingers down low and center's curling for quick support passes. The team tried to do it in the first couple of games against Florida and their forwards just couldn't even accept those little passes and there were defensemen that couldn't hit sticks and just kept shooting it into the feet of the forwards. It's not surprising that they struggled with it since they didn't really do it for the majority of the season and the majority of the first two rounds, but it's got to change.

Maybe part of it is because of the personnel on the defense and on the wings, and the fact that the majority of the players on this roster do not have the softest hands to handle those little 5 or 6-ft passes, and if that's the case the hierarchy has to identify it and figure out that they need to change it. In the playoffs every team started having their defenseman stand up to those wingers that were by the red line and basically picking off those passes or completely disrupting them. Once the defense doesn't have the option to make that play and they're forced to try to make shorter passes in their own zone without multiple options it becomes really easy for the fore checking team to identify The available options to our defense and neutralize them, and for the most part our defense does not have the ability to skate the puck out of our own zone, and that includes Fox.

And when you look at our defense it's pretty much landlocked right now except for replacing Gustafson. Trouba to me is a much bigger problem right now than lindgren. Trouba gets paid to be a top four defenseman And right now he's got two younger, faster, more mobile, and more offensive defenseman ahead of him on the right side. I'll go back to what I said before, if you're going to move Lindgren then you have to figure out a top four LD to fill his spot. If you move trouba then you're only looking for a bottom pair RD which will be much easier to fill.

I'm not a big fan at all about having Fox and Jones in the same top six based on what happens in the playoffs because year after year we see small defensemen just get eaten alive unless they're absolutely elite and even then they often have way more trouble in the playoffs than they do in the regular season. So I see our d next year looking like:
? Fox
Miller Schneider
Lindgren ?/jones

Or

? Fox
Miller Schneider
?/jones Trouba


I don't think that both Lindgren and Trouba will be gone next year. If that happened then literally half of the teams top 6 d would be gone. Rarely does that happen and cap wise it would be very difficult to find 2 quality d to bring in here that won't decimate the team structure. Remember that ufas will want term to go with the dollars, and you can't do that since you are staring at laffy and Igor extensions.

Ohhhh so much wrong here.


Fox doesn't come out of the rotation late in games.. He also kills penalties so he isn't taken out of the rotation there either. He also didn't bleed chances against to the level that Lindgren does (again, 5v5 so you can't in this on him getting used with Trouba 6v5 where Lindgren does get first dibs and I get why they do but quite honestly those 2 probably shouldn't.) This isn't the reverse uno card you think it is, it's just false.

We disagree with what he's worth on his next contract, fine. I don't think bottom pairing D should be getting 4 million+ which is what he's going to get. I personally don't think he worth much more than the 2 million some have thrown out either. You're really underselling how heavy his regression was last year and its the reddest of flags when his biggest strength fell to the point where he was at the bottom of the barrel in most of the key areas amongst our regulars. Thats while playing most of his minutes with our best defenseman mind you.

I never referenced just the Florida series btw. All I said was Lindgren was bad in all 3 rounds. I think the D really outside of Fox was ass in the Florida series - Thats the other 5 guys. You can point the finger on Miller and say that he was worse in the Florida series but objectively Lindgren was worse for the entirety of the playoffs and regular season.

I won't disagree with the notion that our forwards didn't do a great job in the Florida series in their own end but it wasn't because they didn't have the hands to handle 5-6 foot passes. there were some really crucial fumbles in the moments that they were made (Goodrow has one that still haunts me and it didn't even result in a goal against) but the bigger problem is that our defense, on the whole, wasn't able to make these passes or wheel themselves out of trouble. No bigger culprit here than #55 himself.

I also disagree that Trouba is a bigger problem. I think he's a better player right now (and that isn't saying much) but he's already been stashed in a bottom pair role so at least I know that the coaching staff is willing to do that. If they move Lindgren they'll only need to replace 1 LD provided that they actually give Jones a run on the 3rd pair (which they should. At this point they should let him prove that he can or can't handle the load instead of just assuming that he can't. When he got some burn there, it actually looked like he could.) It's also, at most 2 years vs what ever Lindgren is signed for (which will be 4 or more). Now neither is ideal, but I'd rather have a bad player for 2 more years than 4+. They probably don't both get moved but if one or the other has to, it should be RL.

Also I never asked you to go through all 32 teams. Just look at the top 30 D in the league and tell me who has a weaker partner than Fox. You won't be able to do it because they all either have better partners or are paired together. Its time we go that route.

 

[Mac n Gs]

He could be but the analytics back him up.

Yeah, he’s a solid player. I’m stilly iffy on the potential cost coming off a sky-high shooting% and good playoffs, but he reminds me a bit of when Mason Marchment really popped that one year for Florida. I think Joshua is a step below that and won’t hit the same ceiling, but as far as players with grit that are actually useful, he fits the bill.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Joshua could be a 1 yr wonder just saying !

In terms of pacing at a 20+ goal pace he is.

In terms of being good? Nah, he's been good for a while.

 

[jay from jersey]

Joshua doesn't play center. It has nothing to do with Chytil.

Joshua benefitted a lot for Garland….
He was the straw that stirred the drink for that line.
Away from Garland, he didn’t have as much success or look as dangerous.
I do like Joshua’s physicality and the fact that he plays a hard nosed straight lined game……
Many nucks fans want to resign him up to 3.5-3.75 ish…..
4 mill per they would let him go on to greener pastures.

Rangers should really try to avoid paying these kind of deals for other teams bottom 6 guys. It’s how we got in trouble with the Goodrow deal.
We were devoid of any prospects like that in our system. I’d rather let young guys come up internally and give them a chance to win the spot

 

[bobbop]

“Mild” my ass

 

[Hire Sather]

Your reply does not speak to the points I established in my reply to your post.
It deflects the discussion, which is fine to bring up 'in addition to' but ignoring what I said b'c there is no comeback is not cool, and while I expect that of others, it is beneath you, a poster I have regard for.

To address your pt above -- the quantity of his contribution with heavy emphasis on scoring -- I am forced by you to say this is borderline disingenuous. Not nec false, but dis.

Clearly and obviously, Rempe's immediate contributions are physical, and all that comes with that -- chiefly board work which helps with our possession, something not to be overlooked, but also clearing the crease, and helping interrupt opposing netminder's line of sight.

These are not gonna show up so much in the stats, but they are positive, and actually real.

If Rem, instead of a physical game, had Bobby Orr speed/skating contributions, would your position be the same? As and for a parallel, degree of Rempe physical adds is obv not same level of Leetch skating, let alone Orr, but while there is a measure as to degree, what Rempe has done remains signif, not insignif

And again, like 20+ games they win w/him and only like 3 w'o.

Logic hard to refute says add more Rempe, not less


correctimundo

And even if you say ok, worth it,
why would LA not match and trade elsewhere for value >> 4 late 1sts?

No matter how many words you use to say very little, it does not make you correct.

I do wish Rempe was Bobby Orr or Brian Leetch though. That would be nice.

What the hell are you even saying lol

 

[Hire Sather]

Pretty amazing how we lose our #1 defenseman each time we have a legitimate cup chance.

Yet here we are arguing about Matt Rempe being the difference

 

[kovazub94]

People were saying the same all winter and continue to be ignored.

Zibanejad is outplayed by the other team's top center almost every night.

If he's going to be here, which if we're being serious and realistic, he is, then let's get him out of a role he can't handle.

Can’t he? How much Barkov & Co. was able to score against someone who’s having a down season? Yeah he’s not a perennial Norris but I’m amazed how underrated he’s around here because he’s not in the elite stratosphere.

 

[Machinehead]

Can’t he? How much Barkov & Co. was able to score against someone who’s having a down season? Yeah he’s not a perennial Norris but I’m amazed how underrated he’s around here because he’s not in the elite stratosphere.

He's not a good matchup center. It's pretty obvious unless you just don't want to see it.

Not every good player is good in that role. Not every player good in that role is elite.

 

[NickyFotiu]

Crazy deal that may not help anyone but just for discussion sake.

Trouba and Kaako for Laine.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Can’t he? How much Barkov & Co. was able to score against someone who’s having a down season? Yeah he’s not a perennial Norris but I’m amazed how underrated he’s around here because he’s not in the elite stratosphere.

Barkov created more chances than any other player in the series on either team. Theres really only one reason why he or his line mates didn't put up big numbers...

I think allowing Zibanejad to focus on just doing offense would be a good thing?

 

[bleedblue94]

Ohhhh so much wrong here.


Fox doesn't come out of the rotation late in games.. He also kills penalties so he isn't taken out of the rotation there either. He also didn't bleed chances against to the level that Lindgren does (again, 5v5 so you can't in this on him getting used with Trouba 6v5 where Lindgren does get first dibs and I get why they do but quite honestly those 2 probably shouldn't.) This isn't the reverse uno card you think it is, it's just false.

We disagree with what he's worth on his next contract, fine. I don't think bottom pairing D should be getting 4 million+ which is what he's going to get. I personally don't think he worth much more than the 2 million some have thrown out either. You're really underselling how heavy his regression was last year and its the reddest of flags when his biggest strength fell to the point where he was at the bottom of the barrel in most of the key areas amongst our regulars. Thats while playing most of his minutes with our best defenseman mind you.

I never referenced just the Florida series btw. All I said was Lindgren was bad in all 3 rounds. I think the D really outside of Fox was ass in the Florida series - Thats the other 5 guys. You can point the finger on Miller and say that he was worse in the Florida series but objectively Lindgren was worse for the entirety of the playoffs and regular season.

I won't disagree with the notion that our forwards didn't do a great job in the Florida series in their own end but it wasn't because they didn't have the hands to handle 5-6 foot passes. there were some really crucial fumbles in the moments that they were made (Goodrow has one that still haunts me and it didn't even result in a goal against) but the bigger problem is that our defense, on the whole, wasn't able to make these passes or wheel themselves out of trouble. No bigger culprit here than #55 himself.

I also disagree that Trouba is a bigger problem. I think he's a better player right now (and that isn't saying much) but he's already been stashed in a bottom pair role so at least I know that the coaching staff is willing to do that. If they move Lindgren they'll only need to replace 1 LD provided that they actually give Jones a run on the 3rd pair (which they should. At this point they should let him prove that he can or can't handle the load instead of just assuming that he can't. When he got some burn there, it actually looked like he could.) It's also, at most 2 years vs what ever Lindgren is signed for (which will be 4 or more). Now neither is ideal, but I'd rather have a bad player for 2 more years than 4+. They probably don't both get moved but if one or the other has to, it should be RL.

Also I never asked you to go through all 32 teams. Just look at the top 30 D in the league and tell me who has a weaker partner than Fox. You won't be able to do it because they all either have better partners or are paired together. Its time we go that route.

Fox doesn't come out of the rotation late in games.. He also kills penalties so he isn't taken out of the rotation there either. He also didn't bleed chances against to the level that Lindgren does (again, 5v5 so you can't in this on him getting used with Trouba 6v5 where Lindgren does get first dibs and I get why they do but quite honestly those 2 probably shouldn't.) This isn't the reverse uno card you think it is, it's just false.


*** This is flat out not true. Lindgren and Trouba PK together and Schneider and Miller started working as a pair. If you complain that Lindgren is stapled to fox then how is fox out there in these situations if Lindgren was actually out with trouba frequently?


We disagree with what he's worth on his next contract, fine. I don't think bottom pairing D should be getting 4 million+ which is what he's going to get. I personally don't think he worth much more than the 2 million some have thrown out either. You're really underselling how heavy his regression was last year and its the reddest of flags when his biggest strength fell to the point where he was at the bottom of the barrel in most of the key areas amongst our regulars. Thats while playing most of his minutes with our best defenseman mind you.

**** This is the thing, to you he is a bottom pair, but to some other teams in the league he is a top 4 guy, most likely 2nd pairing guy. He's going to get a decent number on his next deal whether it's here or elsewhere. There's no point arguing, the league is overpaying old/serviceable d men at this point. Lindgren will get some sort of raise on his QO whether you think he should or not. This league is starved for d men.


I never referenced just the Florida series btw. All I said was Lindgren was bad in all 3 rounds. I think the D really outside of Fox was ass in the Florida series - Thats the other 5 guys. You can point the finger on Miller and say that he was worse in the Florida series but objectively Lindgren was worse for the entirety of the playoffs and regular season.


**** Gusto was the worst one once the honeymoon ended, and he was terrible in the playoffs getting the easiest matchups. You have brought up the Florida series in other posts so please don't act like you didn't.


I won't disagree with the notion that our forwards didn't do a great job in the Florida series in their own end but it wasn't because they didn't have the hands to handle 5-6 foot passes. there were some really crucial fumbles in the moments that they were made (Goodrow has one that still haunts me and it didn't even result in a goal against) but the bigger problem is that our defense, on the whole, wasn't able to make these passes or wheel themselves out of trouble. No bigger culprit here than #55 himself.

**** I mean everyone not on the Trocheck line struggled with the short area passes. As I said, part of it was the team changed its breakout to adjust to other teams and their forecheck, but you can't just go to that after playing the same craptastic breakout system that they did all year. They planned to just get the puck into the other teams zone and then trap them into turnovers with the 131, but NYR couldn't get out of their zone when the games got tighter. I agree that the d needs to improve but part of the issue is that our #1 d is also one of those guys that struggle to skate the puck out of pressure bc his skating is below average. That is why I said I would like to see him commit to improve it on some level like laffy did. That's not asking much...


I also disagree that Trouba is a bigger problem. I think he's a better player right now (and that isn't saying much) but he's already been stashed in a bottom pair role so at least I know that the coaching staff is willing to do that. If they move Lindgren they'll only need to replace 1 LD provided that they actually give Jones a run on the 3rd pair (which they should. At this point they should let him prove that he can or can't handle the load instead of just assuming that he can't. When he got some burn there, it actually looked like he could.) It's also, at most 2 years vs what ever Lindgren is signed for (which will be 4 or more). Now neither is ideal, but I'd rather have a bad player for 2 more years than 4+. They probably don't both get moved but if one or the other has to, it should be RL.

****. Hahaha trouba is a lesser problem bc he's so bad he needs to be on the 3rd pair and he's paid 8m on the cap??? Hahahha

Also I never asked you to go through all 32 teams. Just look at the top 30 D in the league and tell me who has a weaker partner than Fox. You won't be able to do it because they all either have better partners or are paired together. Its time we go that route.

**** Not many teams have two of the top 30 d in the league, so go through 30 instead of 32? Okay sure, but no....

 

[Charlie Conway]

To me he’s a better bet than Goodrow. If they could find a way to trade Goodrow and add Joshua it makes sense. Joshua is a 3rd liner at a good age.

Teams would value Goodrow, but he's overpaid. Wonder if San Jose would be interested in a reunion with Goodrow. They gotta hit the floor. They also might have interest Kakko as he'd be within the rebuild age, but I don't know how much we'd get for him...pick and a prospect?

Even if we took Sturm back, that would save $1.6 million+Kakko's salary. Just still doesn't help the hole at RW, and losing Goodrow's physicality would be a loss.

Saw an article before suggesting the Rangers look at Tyler Bertuzzi...but it doesn't leave much cash for defense.

Kreider - Zib - Bertuzzi
Panarin - Trocheck - Laf
Cuylle - Chytil - Joshua
Vesey - Sturm - Rempe/Greer

I just don't know how much of an improvement that would really be over this past year.

 

[effen]

Joshua could be a 1 yr wonder just saying !

That's a risk I'm willing to take with Dolan's money.

 

[Atax]

Would be nice if we kept posts to under 5000 characters.

 

[Crease]

Kakko, Othmann and a 1st for B. Tkachuk?

 

[Guyute]

Vegas getting Marner would be really annoying

Kakko, Othmann and a 1st for B. Tkachuk?

Salary cap says no

 

[bhamill]

i'm not convinced that Kakko can't be a better 3rd liner on this team than a Garnet Hathaway or Dakota Joshua.

Exactly. Kakko is still 22…

 

[Irishguy42]

Kakko, Othmann and a 1st for B. Tkachuk?

Ottawa says yes and is laughing all the way to the bank. Overpay by Drury.

 

[bbny]

People were saying the same all winter and continue to be ignored.

Zibanejad is outplayed by the other team's top center almost every night.

If he's going to be here, which if we're being serious and realistic, he is, then let's get him out of a role he can't handle.

I agree with this, but who replaces his 5v5 minutes? Top centers don’t grow on trees. Do you have some options in mind?

 

[Machinehead]

I agree with this, but who replaces his 5v5 minutes? Top centers don’t grow on trees. Do you have some options in mind?

Trocheck is really good, his line kicks ass, and he and Barkov played pretty much even in the minutes they shared. I would just give him more responsibility.

 

[80shockeywasbuns]

I agree with this, but who replaces his 5v5 minutes? Top centers don’t grow on trees. Do you have some options in mind?

The whole point is that he’s not a top center and can’t handle his minutes/deployment. NYR should try actually making a good 3rd line with offensive players on it and give them the minutes