Roster Building Thread - Part XI (Off-season edition)

[GoAwayPanarin]

Categorizing Lindgren as "undersized" and setting out to get bigger is dangerous thinking. Lindgren just sucks.

Yeah they can get bigger but in the act of getting bigger, they also need to get better. I don't need them to stay the same by becoming more proficient in some areas but more deficient in others.

In addition, there are a ton of guys who would be an upgrade on Lindgren but I'm not looking for just an upgrade there, get someone who actually belongs on a top pair.

Is Arvidsson completely healthy?

As healthy as he was going to be, yeah.

I think he's a great 1 year gamble but I wouldn't give him multiple years. Also not a guy I'd look to get K-Z going.

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

I understand they've been paired together forever, but I'm not sure why Kreider is getting labeled as soft or not intense enough simply because he's on Zib's line. They are not the same player.

 

[Synergy27]

I understand they've been paired together forever, but I'm not sure why Kreider is getting labeled as soft or not intense enough simply because he's on Zib's line. They are not the same player.

It’s because he doesn’t impose his will physically on people when we all know he can. He doesn’t punish opposing defenseman or wear them down.

I don’t think he has to be effective. He’s obviously been effective without doing that.

But it’d be nice if he scored all of those goals AND did that.

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

It’s because he doesn’t impose his will physically on people when we all know he can. He doesn’t punish opposing defenseman or wear them down.

I don’t think he has to be effective. He’s obviously been effective without doing that.

But it’d be nice if he scored all of those goals AND did that.

I think anyone who can stand in the crease for as long as he does night in and night out, is imposing their will. He almost never loses a board battle and usually comes away with the puck. I get that he doesn't skate around leveling people, but he hasn't been that type of player in forever.

 

[HatTrick Swayze]

It’s because he doesn’t impose his will physically on people when we all know he can. He doesn’t punish opposing defenseman or wear them down.

I don’t think he has to be effective. He’s obviously been effective without doing that.

But it’d be nice if he scored all of those goals AND did that.

He does it in spurts. I thought he was noticeably more intense and intentional with physical play in the game after Tkachuk called him out. But he does goes long stretches without looking particularly motivated in this regard.

 

[LannyMcdonald]

Aaron Judge might be the MVP and he struggled in March/April and picked it up in May/June.

I’m not saying the current group can’t improve, adjust, etc. But I definitely wouldn’t dismiss what happened to our PP as a mere sample size issue. Carolina (thankfully belatedly) and Florida figured us out, solved us. That was clear to the eye.

 

[Machinehead]

It’s because he doesn’t impose his will physically on people when we all know he can. He doesn’t punish opposing defenseman or wear them down.

I don’t think he has to be effective. He’s obviously been effective without doing that.

But it’d be nice if he scored all of those goals AND did that.

He's not gonna do that on a line that never forechecks and can't establish one.

 

[LaffyTaffy13]

They are also paying $20M to Barkov and Tkachuk, not Panarin and Zibanejad. And they don’t have Trouba on the roster, and will be facing some tough decisions trying to find space to resign several UFAs.

Even if Trouba leaves, who else are you willing to let go when you pay Igor that much?

It’s not hard. Trouba/panarin gone in 2 years. Kreider and goodrow in 3. Any of the above outside of bread (NMC) we could likely move tomorrow. Igor will make $10.5 and it’s a nothing burger. Better than paying 2 garbage goalies $2.5-3.5 each to split duties and become the devils

 

[Fitzy]

Never ceases to cause me to cringe watching armchair commentators saying an NHL player “sucks”

I realize for then simplicity of communication why we do it? But it’s hilarious from 10k feet.

“Here’s a Harvard biology professor. He published 10 papers last year compared to his colleagues 15. What a dipshit”

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

I think we're on the same page, but all I'm saying is, Domi isn't enough. Domi's been on 4 teams in a row that didn't have enough other muscle and grit and meanness to back up his playing style. Domi and Bertuzzi, these guys are decent hockey players. Jerks. But we need our bottom 6 to have a combo of speed/tenacity/meanness PLUS we need much more of that in our top 6 as well. Domi is fine, but he will only lead to Zibanejad or Panarin or Fox getting neutered and decapitated by a tougher team. We need more than Domi. Adding Domi just makes you the Leafs of the past 6 years. Every year they add one or two guys like Domi (and also Domi) and it doesn't do ANYTHING. Simmonds, Bertuzzi, Reaves, Cliford, Ritchie, Domi, etc etc etc. IT's because the top of the lineup is a bunch of perimeter players - Matthews, Knies, Nylander, Tavares, Marner.

My guess is, as the dust has settled, that the next season or two, we're going more in this Leafs route because I don't think we're moving on from Zib or Panarin or Fox. But this is going to be an ongoing issue that CD will need to address. But to repeat Domi isn't nearly enough. It's a band-aid and not a very good one.

I think there is a common misconception that you battle Florida with more size and muscle. I actually think thats the WRONG way to go about it. If you want guys like Tkachuk and Bennett (guys who can bang/grind and are legitimate true blue top 6 players) then good luck to you, there are maybe 6 or 7 of them of them in the league and Florida has 2 of them. Plus it ignores where the bigger issues with this roster are.

Rangers could have had the same sized roster with the same amount of bite but had they had better players than Lindgren and Trouba they would have probably won. The best way to deal with a heavy forecheck isn't to muscle up so you can push through it, it's to never really allow it to get started in the first place.

Now I do agree that they need to get better at creating inside the dots but you don't need size and snarl to do that. Thats a play style. Size helps there but its hardly a necessity, there are plenty of normal sized (or smaller) players who do this. Kreider is one of the few that does so singling him out here is a bit puzzling. It really doesn't matter if he gets there and the puck doesn't. I'm with you on Zibanejad and Panarin though.

Also Matthews is anything but a perimeter creator. Dude creates from everywhere. You don't score 60+ goals by simply sniping from the outside, dude gets most of his goals from inside the dots. I mean f*** the Leafs but this is a wildly inaccurate assessment of the player. Tavares was the very definition of a guy who was an interior creator, he just isn't very good anymore.

Had they actually focused on putting together a defense that could move the puck at all instead of having one that is more allergic to doing it than ours is, they would have had more success. Their issues lie there, not with their toughness because that roster (this year especially) was plenty tough and tried too hard to prove how tough they were.

 

[Machinehead]

Never ceases to cause me to cringe watching armchair commentators saying an NHL player “sucks”

I realize for then simplicity of communication why we do it? But it’s hilarious from 10k feet.

“Here’s a Harvard biology professor. He published 10 papers last year compared to his colleagues 15. What a dipshit”

When I say people suck at this level, it's all relative to the level.

Being a competitor myself, I have a good idea where the top is.

 

[Guyute]

After thinking it over for a few days, I’d much rather see the Rangers trade Lindgren over Trouba if I had to choose one or the other.

Cerny had ann article saying Lindgren could get Erik Cernak money. There’s absolutely no way I would pay anything close to $5 million+ whether it be short or long term for Lindgren. He would be considered a bottom pair D if it weren’t for Fox. Then there’s the longevity concerns to worry about.

 

[Mandar]

Question: Did we abandon playing the 1-3-1 for the end of the season and playoffs, or did we just play it badly? Cause no matter who you trade/release/sign/acquire.....if the opponent has free reign to go through the neutral zone with no resistance, nothing will change.

 

[Fitzy]

After thinking it over for a few days, I’d much rather see the Rangers trade Lindgren over Trouba if I had to choose one or the other.

Cerny had ann article saying Lindgren could get Erik Cernak money. There’s absolutely no way I would pay anything close to $5 million+ whether it be short or long term for Lindgren. He would be considered a bottom pair D if it weren’t for Fox. Then there’s the longevity concerns to worry about.

5 million would absolutely be a bad move for this franchise, given our shortcomings, needs, and Lindgren's progression.

It's also not the kind of figure that generally gets offered to awful defensemen.

NYR can have one, maybe two defensemen on the blue line with little to no offense. Right now we have 3 and that's too many.

 

[Levitate]

I understand they've been paired together forever, but I'm not sure why Kreider is getting labeled as soft or not intense enough simply because he's on Zib's line. They are not the same player.

eh he doesn't engage much along the boards anymore which doesn't help that lines ability to cycle, and if the backing point of making a shakeup is to try to get the team to be more aggressive and physical, then he's still obviously one of the guys who is not that (despite being productive without that).

I don't have a problem with Kreider and how he plays really, but if the team wants to get meaner then he needs some linemates that bring that grit that he doesn't

 

[NYR Viper]

Just looking at AFP:

Arvidsson is projected to get 3 years @ $4.75m

That's hefty in my eyes for a guy who barely played this year. I like his playing style but he has a pretty long injury track record.

Compare that with Bertuzzi who is slated to get 4 years @ $5.275m

Now these are just projections, obviously, but if given the option, I think I'd lean towards Bertuzzi.

Some other names with projections for forwards:
Jake DeBrusk - 5 years @ $5.8m
Warren Foegele - 3 years @ $3.9m
Danton Heinen - 3 years @ $2.9m
Dakota Joshua - 3 years @ $3.25m
Kasperi Kapanen - 2 years @ $2.4m
Sam Lafferty - 2 years @ $2.4m
Anthony Mantha - 3 years @ $4.5m
Max Pacioretty - 1 year @ $1.45m
Alexander Barabanov - 1 year @ $1.2m

I think that based on this list, I'd be more likely to go with Berard and sign a veteran to compete for that spot, say Pacioretty, Kapanen or Barabanov than go for one of these guys to compliment them.

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

eh he doesn't engage much along the boards anymore which doesn't help that lines ability to cycle, and if the backing point of making a shakeup is to try to get the team to be more aggressive and physical, then he's still obviously one of the guys who is not that (despite being productive without that).

I don't have a problem with Kreider and how he plays really, but if the team wants to get meaner then he needs some linemates that bring that grit that he doesn't

I'm all for changing the makeup of the forward group, but removing probably your best goal scorer (in addition to all the other stuff he brings to the team) to do it seems pretty short sighted.

 

[SA16]

I’m not saying the current group can’t improve, adjust, etc. But I definitely wouldn’t dismiss what happened to our PP as a mere sample size issue. Carolina (thankfully belatedly) and Florida figured us out, solved us. That was clear to the eye.

Carolina and Florida didn't "solve" the Rangers PP. They just so happened to be two of the best PKs in the league all year. Of course when you play teams like that you're more prone to a drought.

In fact they were 1-2 in 4v5 CA60 with a big gap to the team in 3rd. Also 1-2 in xGA60 and 1-3 in GA60.

 

[bhamill]

After thinking it over for a few days, I’d much rather see the Rangers trade Lindgren over Trouba if I had to choose one or the other.

Cerny had ann article saying Lindgren could get Erik Cernak money. There’s absolutely no way I would pay anything close to $5 million+ whether it be short or long term for Lindgren. He would be considered a bottom pair D if it weren’t for Fox. Then there’s the longevity concerns to worry about.

Lingren's QO is 3.6mil. He's not getting 5 from us.

 

[Levitate]

I'm all for changing the makeup of the forward group, but removing probably your best goal scorer (in addition to all the other stuff he brings to the team) to do it seems pretty short sighted.

Yeah I don't really disagree. Like I said it'd kinda have to be something along the lines of what Florida did (and yeah got FLorida on the brain since they beat the Rangers) so it's not like you're trading Kreider for futures or depth.

Again, I'd rather they magically move Zibanejad and magically bring in another C that's a puck possession monster

 

[McRanger92]

Just looking at AFP:

Arvidsson is projected to get 3 years @ $4.75m

That's hefty in my eyes for a guy who barely played this year. I like his playing style but he has a pretty long injury track record.

Compare that with Bertuzzi who is slated to get 4 years @ $5.275m

Now these are just projections, obviously, but if given the option, I think I'd lean towards Bertuzzi.

Some other names with projections for forwards:
Jake DeBrusk - 5 years @ $5.8m
Warren Foegele - 3 years @ $3.9m
Danton Heinen - 3 years @ $2.9m
Dakota Joshua - 3 years @ $3.25m
Kasperi Kapanen - 2 years @ $2.4m
Sam Lafferty - 2 years @ $2.4m
Anthony Mantha - 3 years @ $4.5m
Max Pacioretty - 1 year @ $1.45m
Alexander Barabanov - 1 year @ $1.2m

I think that based on this list, I'd be more likely to go with Berard and sign a veteran to compete for that spot, say Pacioretty, Kapanen or Barabanov than go for one of these guys to compliment them.

Be prepared for another disappointing end to the playoffs if this is what the Rangers do. We did this exact thing with Cuylle and Wheeler last year.

 

[mandiblesofdoom]

Listened to Up in the Blueseats this morning...Larry harping on the "gotta get bigger and tougher" thing again. But I think we (fans in general) often talk past each other on that...I don't think anyone wants to just go out and get a team of no talent thugs on skates and think that will get them the cup, but people tend to come at the idea from different directions. A lot of people come from the "gotta get meaner and tougher" and other people come from "but we need more skill hits don't win games" and then there's an argument, whereas I think both sides would agree on the idea "we need more physically aggressive players who can control the game with their physicality but are also skilled enough to contribute on the scoresheet on a regular basis".

But I don't totally see how this team currently does that...Zibanejad and Kreider aren't going to flip a switch and start playing that way, Panarin certainly won't, and there's 3 of your top six already as guys who can't physically take over a game.
I think Trochek plays a gritty nasty game but not the kind that can really control play. Laf I think comes close and we might see more of that in the coming year...he's smart enough and has enough of an edge that he goes in after guys and hits to gain possession and isn't afraid to mix things up.

Still though, that leaves most of your top six in the "half of them can't play like that and 2 others are gamers but aren't gonna dominate like that", so...we're left hoping to find a unicorn of a RW somewhere and that the bottom six can do the heavy lifting of being the dominant physical side of the team, which is hard because you want your top six getting the most minutes.

So without a huge shakeup (Zibanejad and/or Kreider gone) I don't see a path towards that in the way the Panters did it.

The third line has its own issues in that it needs to contribute goals and Larry's idea of "well Cuylle, Rempe, and some 6'4 center would be an awesome third line" is out to lunch since you need your third line to contribute offensively and that's not gonna cut it. But, I can see bigger changes being made to the bottom six since that's what Drury has the most room to work with.

As for the D...Larry kills me. He goes on about how they need to be bigger and nastier and his solution is to sign a big bruising defenseman for the third pairing but also to make Lindgren a top priority to re-sign. It's just like...man if you want to remake the D in that way you basically have to start with Lindgren because he simply isn't big enough or physical enough nor does he have the skills to do all these things people are asking of him. He tries hard and we all know he goes through hell on his body but like...it's just not enough. If he was on the third pair and a reasonable contract, that's fine. The Rangers can't keep running him out there with Fox though. And if you want to change up the D you can't do it just by trying to find a "physical 3rd pairing guy".

Boyle thought maybe if you're looking to make some shakeup then Lindgren is perhaps the guy you start with in a trade.

If I'm looking at all this I'd see it this way:

Guys I'd be looking to trade in some kind of package for specific upgrades in the roster (not that I have targets just that these are guys I wouldn't be adverse to moving):

Lindgren (Rangers gotta upgrade that 1 LD and don't want to commit to giving Lindgren a long contract to try to keep filling that role)
Kakko (part of a package, not a solo trade, needs a new start)
Chytil (could be an attractive piece for some team willing to take a risk on his health if the Rangers feel they can find a 3C that will be reliable defensively and add an appropriate amount of offense)

Wildcards, guys I don't see being moved but could be part of a larger shakeup if something could be done:

Zibanejad
Kreider
Trouba

The usual suspects there...odds are low any of them could be moved but Zibanejad and Kreider represent the passivity of this current team. If you want to change the intensity and culture of the team you start there...but it'd be very hard to move them and I gues you can always worry about ripple effects in the locker room.

Trouba for obvious reasons...he's just not good and he makes a lot of money and moving him opens up a lot of space to bring in a better replacement and spend money elsewhere on upgrades. Is Drury cutthroat enough to trade a captain after a run to the ECF? One that is supposedly well liked? Dunno!

Larry knows how to tell the fan base what they want to hear. Whether it makes sense or not.

The "Get bigger & meaner" is fine if they get better. However for years now we've been running out defensemen that aren't that good, and continually allow long shifts, regardless of size or meanness.

 

[Levitate]

Yeah I do think there's a shakeup, just dunno how big it's going to be.

I don't think Drury will look at how this went down against Florida and say "it's ok, we were close, we'll run it back the same next year". He's going to try to do something to change the look of the team

 

[mandiblesofdoom]

Never ceases to cause me to cringe watching armchair commentators saying an NHL player “sucks”

I realize for then simplicity of communication why we do it? But it’s hilarious from 10k feet.

“Here’s a Harvard biology professor. He published 10 papers last year compared to his colleagues 15. What a dipshit”

Well, a lot of people are fans of teams. Fans spend a lot of time watching & thinking about players. We have opinions, well-founded or not. It's natural.

Not many people are devoted fans of Harvard Biology professors.

 

[McRanger92]

Yeah I do think there's a shakeup, just dunno how big it's going to be.

I don't think Drury will look at how this went down against Florida and say "it's ok, we were close, we'll run it back the same next year". He's going to try to do something to change the look of the team

I agree but I think people are on edge because we're in purgatory right now. I need to see Drury make the necessary moves before I full believe they are happening lol. Kinda like when they signed Trocheck. It gave me a lot of confidence because I didnt expect the team to identify such a perfect fit. Imo we need a "Trocheck" on D.