Roster Building thread - Part X - (TDL edition)

[effen]

What can Kakko+Lindgren+2024 1st return?

I'd find out if I could get Batherson for that package. Ottawa is a team who may well consider an offense for defense/intangibles trade.

 

[Fitzy]

Teams that play a simple game fare much better against us. Put the puck deep, forecheck, generate turnovers. Don't give us counter-attacking opportunities and odd-man rushes. We go 200 feet every time.

Keep NYR to the outside when they're in the offensize zone, and try to preserve stamina for long shifts while avoiding giving up tik-tak-toe plays that get the goalie moving too quickly. Don't let the D men at the point sneak down to change the angle of attack by taking a lane that doesn't remove their safe passing options, but instead forces them to lateral the puck along without advancing the play much.


We won't know how this team responds until a club does what Jersey did from game 3 on last playoffs and commits to that style.

 

[SA16]

Tell our friend mas that


Weol boo hoo for you. Most fans want a chance each year. Not to wait 8-9 years praying you’re the rebuild that works.

Who is mas?

Rebuilds are bad and don't work. They are even worse now with the current draft lottery rules. If your plan is a ten year plan you have no plan at all. A rebuild should consist of dealing your upcoming UFAs and giving legitimate youth a chance in bigger roles. Fully stripping the team down is just hoping to get lucky. This isn't the NBA. You draft Nathan MacKinnon. So what? You don't win anything without a bunch of good players. In the NBA you draft LeBron yea you win almost right away (and to be fair even he did not win a championship until his 9th year).

 

[duhmetreE]

What can Kakko+Lindgren+2024 1st return?

Chychrun + Batherson. Ideal world, Pinto could be had.

Then move Trouba for a 1st.

 

[haohmaru]

Let's see here in the ol' check box

Young Norris trophy winner on D
Young Vezina winner in net
Top 10 offensive player in the league on wing
Top 5 best lines in hockey
Playoff experienced roster that got smoked last year and is pissed about it
Trocheck, Goodrow, Kreider in the playoffs
8 D deep on D and all are NHL players
Outstanding 3rd line that's difficult to deal with
4th line that can score, win face-offs, defend and intimidate

Yeah, those odds look pretty good.

What would really push all the chips onto the table is Mika waking up from his slumber in time for the playoffs.

This team has as good a chance as any team in the NHL. Better than most.

 

[pld459666]

In the regular season.



5v5 dominance.



I've literally never said "assuredly," and in fact said explicitly not assuredly.

I said that's assuredly the best way to get there. Not that its guaranteed you get there.

There's not a team in the league I don't like our chances with.

Not one.

 

[jay from jersey]

I'll tell you who scares the shit out of me - Dallas.

But if we make it to Dallas, I'm not gonna think about it too much.

They are a good team…
I’m expecting any team from the west to have at least 1 long grueling series.
Aves, Vegas, stars, are all battle tested…..
Then you have sleepers like the preds who refuse to lose and Winnipeg who can look like all stars or completely lost

 

[RangerBoy]

Torts has Farabee on the 4th line tonight. Big game tonight. Flyers-Islanders.

 

[mas0764]

I think Lindgren is actually a very underrated skater. He moves pretty well. His game is focused mostly on retrieving pucks and getting it to Fox to move up ice, but he moves the puck up the boards relatively well. If he had to be the one breaking it out, I think you'd see a lot more mistakes, but he plays with Fox and doesn't need to. While most posters act like he is a detriment with the puck on his stick and a poor skater, I don't really see it that way.

He also has the courage to absolutely eat pucks, which you need in a few of your defensemen. You can't have 6 guys who play the same way.

Because of his courage, he doesn't protect his body well enough. He needs to learn to retrieve pucks and avoid checks, because he is average sized. If he doesn't do this, he puts himself at risk of injury, which we've seen over the past few years.

He's also surprisingly good at keeping pucks in at the blue line and keeping the play alive.

At the price point he will likely sign, you're not going to find a similarly capable player. I'm not saying they shouldn't upgrade him if an upgrade is available, but I'm not seeing Lindgren as a "must move" guy as if he is a detriment to the team.


I mean, you should always be trying to get better. Whether you win the Cup or not. So you're rephrasing what I'm saying.

My point is, instead of enjoying the win, you'd say they got lucky and be negative about not winning another one.

I don't know, I think there is a line between being critical and analyzing the roster/moves, and being cynical, and you tow it. You act like there's one way to win the Cup and there just isn't. Vegas is a perfect example.

There’s not just one way but there are ways that are way better than others.

Tell our friend mas that


Weol boo hoo for you. Most fans want a chance each year. Not to wait 8-9 years praying you’re the rebuild that works.

Most fans want to win a Cup and are willing to do what it takes to get it.

 

[jay from jersey]

The Colorado rebuild wasn't even a success. Their first early pick was Duchene at 1.3 in 2009. They won the Stanley Cup in 2022. I would not call a 13 year plan a success. That was MacKinnon's 9th year. These "rebuilds" take so long to yield results there is no way to know if another plan would have worked better. They went through 3 head coaches and 3 GMs in that time

2016: Pittsburgh
2017: Pittsburgh
2018: Washington
2019: Blues
2020: Tampa
2021: Tampa
2022: Avalanche
2023: Vegas

Outside of Colorado (and it took them 8 years?) how many of those teams won because they ripped it down to the studs and did a full rebuild? Pittsburgh was good forever, Tampa too. Vegas was a freaking expansion team.

bear in mind, and you’ll never convince me otherwise, that franchise was GIVEN Crosby so it would not fold.
There is absolutely evidence to support it. I’ll discuss it further with anyone if they want. There is no way that wasn’t a fix. Full stop…
Beyond Pitt and I guess Colorado too
There is no team that meets the criteria for a full rebuild akin to the Dom article that is referenced many times….
You can’t just say, ok we rebuild for 7-8 years, we have the criteria met
-youth
-farm
-etc etc
Now go win at hockey and become a multi- cup winning dynasty.

It doesn’t work like that.
Buffalo and Ottawa have gone the route of a categorical full rebuild and are both dumpster fires.
Phoenix hired chakya to be a moneyball GM….they probably dress more kids the. Any other team, they blow. They will continue to blow.

NYR didn’t abandon their rebuild. Some things when wrong/right and some things happened that were absolutely lucky.
Fox for 2nds and being a savage from the get go
- signing panarin
-shesty
- drafting better
Winning lotto for kakko
Winning lotto for Laf
Etc….
They adjusted their course because things happen that affect the outcome of other things….

Sometimes sure things come out a miss. Sometimes you get manna from heaven for nothing( fox for 2nds/ shesty 5th rd pick)

Life/trades/poor performances/ etc everything has a multitude of variables….
Thinking you’re going to go into the playoffs ANY season, and have the entire team playing the absolute peak they possibly can as a whole, again is not realistic.

Add in the business side of things and pressure to win/right the ship, and many other things can affect the length/timing of any teams rebuild. Whether it’s long 7-10 years or 2-3 years….
Luck/development/trades/UFAs and player progression will always affect the timeline

 

[TominNC]

Who is mas?

Rebuilds are bad and don't work. They are even worse now with the current draft lottery rules. If your plan is a ten year plan you have no plan at all. A rebuild should consist of dealing your upcoming UFAs and giving legitimate youth a chance in bigger roles. Fully stripping the team down is just hoping to get lucky. This isn't the NBA. You draft Nathan MacKinnon. So what? You don't win anything without a bunch of good players. In the NBA you draft LeBron yea you win almost right away (and to be fair even he did not win a championship until his 9th year).

mas0764

 

[jay from jersey]

Remember all the doom and gloom last summer? All the threads saying no to all "retreads"? The bashing of Quick? The bashing of Lavi? What a difference 8 months makes.

Pittsburgh was good forever because they ripped it down to the point of almost moving.

Your point is taken, but they're not a good example.

Given Crosby on a silver platter.
Could be an argument for Malkin as well, but Crosby was egregious….

 

[TominNC]

There’s not just one way but there are ways that are way better than others.


Most fans want to win a Cup and are willing to do what it takes to get it.

They're not looking to subject themselves to a half decade of sucking then another half of working towards maybe making the playoffs. We've had competitive seasons a conference finals and now a best in league season. This method seems pretty good.

 

[mas0764]

They're not looking to subject themselves to a half decade of sucking then another half of working towards maybe making the playoffs. We've had competitive seasons a conference finals and now a best in league season. This method seems pretty good.

So glad you can speak for everyone else.

 

[Flan the incredible]

I think Lindgren is actually a very underrated skater. He moves pretty well. His game is focused mostly on retrieving pucks and getting it to Fox to move up ice, but he moves the puck up the boards relatively well. If he had to be the one breaking it out, I think you'd see a lot more mistakes, but he plays with Fox and doesn't need to. While most posters act like he is a detriment with the puck on his stick and a poor skater, I don't really see it that way.

He also has the courage to absolutely eat pucks, which you need in a few of your defensemen. You can't have 6 guys who play the same way.

Because of his courage, he doesn't protect his body well enough. He needs to learn to retrieve pucks and avoid checks, because he is average sized. If he doesn't do this, he puts himself at risk of injury, which we've seen over the past few years.

He's also surprisingly good at keeping pucks in at the blue line and keeping the play alive.

At the price point he will likely sign, you're not going to find a similarly capable player. I'm not saying they shouldn't upgrade him if an upgrade is available, but I'm not seeing Lindgren as a "must move" guy as if he is a detriment to the team.

I am not trying to be mean so please don't take it that way but you are pretty much proving my point as "his game is focused mostly on retrieving pucks and getting them to Fox". Your first pair dman should not be so reliant on their partner. Tons of other dmen will look great playing with one of the best dmem in the league. I want the Rangers to win a cup and looking at the recent cup winners every top pairing has better players than Lindgren.

I also disagree with everything else you said about his game. He doesn't eat pucks.....Fox has more blocks. In fact he is 5th on the team in blocks behind Trouba, Schneider, Fox and Miller. You think he eats pucks because when he does block a shot he lays on the ice like he was shot. Its also not courage on why he gets blown up game after game its lack of skill. He lacks the skating and maneuverability to avoid these hits and thats another reason why people want him gone. Don't want a guy breaking down making 4 million plus.

Lastly, if you pressure him he doesn't have the ability to cut back or stick handle or do anything else but dump the puck in whatever direction and that usually is not a Ranger. He kills possession with his lack of skill.

I have nothing against Lindgren I think he is a 2nd pairing guy on a playoff team but a 3rd pairing guy on a cup contender. Rangers need an upgrade and fans here will be screaming

 

[jay from jersey]

After reading over probably 1000s of posts about Lindgren in the last few years I noticed something kind of interesting. The people who want him signed in the offseason all say the same thing. He is a heart and soul guy, the team loves him, he has great chemistry with Fox etc. None of that actually describes his game plus Fox is a superstar are we acting like no one can play with him? Fox being as smart as he is with his talent can probably play with most players.

The people who want him traded talk about his game. He is terrible on offense as he doesn't have a good shot, not great at passing, skating is mediocre, cant stick handle so he usually just dumps the puck in an area that another Ranger cant get to while under pressure etc. They talk about his durability as he gets drilled more than anyone else on the team, gets knocked out of the game but he keeps coming back to play hurt. Is that even a good thing? Lastly this year especially his defense hasn't been good as he is out of position a lot and people are getting behind him. A

I challenge everyone to go back and read the threads and notice the difference. The pros are almost entirely things that can't be measured and the cons are almost always about his skill and performance. If you spoke with anyone about him and left off his name and described him as a player it doesn't sound good. Does he skate well....no. Does he shoot well....no. Does he pass well....no. Is he physical....no he usually gets destroyed. Does he block a ton of shots....no and usually he gets hurt when he does. Is he an amazing shutdown dman....no but he does play with one of the best dmen in the game and I think he has great chemistry.

I just dont understand it.

I’ve been on here for the better part of 15 years and prior to this season I don’t see these 100os of posts dogging Lindgren.

There are hardly any until this year. Granted this season he has deserved his fair share of criticism for his play.
I don’t think he’s a bad skater.
He usually puts up around 30 pts a season. Not eye popping stats, but solid for the role he’s in.
He’s gone against the leagues best for years and defended them pretty well. Even earned himself a bit of a reputation for other players on opposing teams for doing so….
Is he the best partner for Fox???
Currently, with what we have he’s certainly a top 4 D on this team the last 3+ seasons.
Can that be improved on? Sure. But the grass isn’t always greener.
I’d way rather try to trade Trouba then letting Lindgren go at this point in time.

 

[TominNC]

So glad you can speak for everyone else.

I’m sure there are many who agree

 

[mas0764]

I’m sure there are many who agree

I’m sure there are many who don’t

 

[TominNC]

I’m sure there are many who don’t

Yeah, no accounting for some fans thought process.

Anyway, I think we’ve beaten this one to death.

 

[Flan the incredible]

I’ve been on here for the better part of 15 years and prior to this season I don’t see these 100os of posts dogging Lindgren.

There are hardly any until this year. Granted this season he has deserved his fair share of criticism for his play.
I don’t think he’s a bad skater.
He usually puts up around 30 pts a season. Not eye popping stats, but solid for the role he’s in.
He’s gone against the leagues best for years and defended them pretty well. Even earned himself a bit of a reputation for other players on opposing teams for doing so….
Is he the best partner for Fox???
Currently, with what we have he’s certainly a top 4 D on this team the last 3+ seasons.
Can that be improved on? Sure. But the grass isn’t always greener.
I’d way rather try to trade Trouba then letting Lindgren go at this point in time.

Never said all the posts are dogging him, just about him in general.

Lindgren has never put up 20 points let alone 30.

Upgrading on Lindgren is much easier then trading Trouba.

The Rangers are a stanley cup contender now and looking at the recent cup winners Lindgren is by far the worst dman on the top pairings. If you look at advanced stats that have been posted on this very same board he hurts everyone he has been paired with and anyone else paired with Fox has done better. The grass is probably greener.

 

[QJL]

Roslovic is not adding much. I think there needs to be a backup plan of Vesey or maybe even Othmann stepping into that spot. Othmann has been very good lately for the Pack. I’ve watched 2 recent games and was impressed.

 

[bl02]

Roslovic is not adding much. I think there needs to be a backup plan of Vesey or maybe even Othmann stepping into that spot. Othmann has been very good lately for the Pack. I’ve watched 2 recent games and was impressed.

The 15 games before that he was basically invisible. The Kid will not be ready for playoff hockey. I will be happy if he can handle AHL playoff hockey.

 

[Kendo]

Lindgren even at 26 would be another Girardi or Staal.

avoid Girardi II

It's just not true.

Let's even assume that at 26, he's still as "old" as a 28yo Staal or 30yo Girardi due to rough mileage. Heck, let's even say he's gonna lose an eye sometime soon. So I'm granting you the real possibility that he's going to break down even worse and sooner than the other two.

$5.5 or $5.7 was just under 8% of the cap back then. If anyone is saying to give Lindgren $7m (8% next season) for 6 years, then we'll all say that's a terrible idea and the same thing as Staal or Girardi.

People are batting about $4.5 for 4 years. That's just over 5% of the cap. If you could go back in time and make both Staal and Girardi sign for $3.6m x 4y (5% of the cap at the time), we would have been BALLIN'! Extra space, no buyout, no cap dump trade.

Feel free to make the argument that Lindgren's body has already broken down worse than those two, to the tune of 2-4 years of lost prime. But it's not so bad that paying him 2/3 the cap percentage for 2/3 the duration is "the same mistake all over again." Unless you're truly wagering on the fact that it's not merely "the same thing," but is "much, much worse." There's a chance, sure.

Go ahead and double down on the pessimism. Just don't wrap it in a package of rational pragmatism. It's simply not the same thing as the other two.

In a perfect world, we could sign Hanifin or someone to something not egregious and then trade Lindgren. He'd have at least *some* value around the league. So I'm not saying he's a perfect little angel that we must protect at all costs. I just think a shorter two or three year deal could be really good for both sides. Four years, still doable. Five, eh, I'm not sure. Six? No way, that's the same thing as Staal or Girardi!

 

[jerseyjinx94]

I am not trying to be mean so please don't take it that way but you are pretty much proving my point as "his game is focused mostly on retrieving pucks and getting them to Fox". Your first pair dman should not be so reliant on their partner. Tons of other dmen will look great playing with one of the best dmem in the league. I want the Rangers to win a cup and looking at the recent cup winners every top pairing has better players than Lindgren.

I also disagree with everything else you said about his game. He doesn't eat pucks.....Fox has more blocks. In fact he is 5th on the team in blocks behind Trouba, Schneider, Fox and Miller. You think he eats pucks because when he does block a shot he lays on the ice like he was shot. Its also not courage on why he gets blown up game after game its lack of skill. He lacks the skating and maneuverability to avoid these hits and thats another reason why people want him gone. Don't want a guy breaking down making 4 million plus.

Lastly, if you pressure him he doesn't have the ability to cut back or stick handle or do anything else but dump the puck in whatever direction and that usually is not a Ranger. He kills possession with his lack of skill.

I have nothing against Lindgren I think he is a 2nd pairing guy on a playoff team but a 3rd pairing guy on a cup contender. Rangers need an upgrade and fans here will be screaming

I don’t think what you said is far off from what I said.

I disagree on the skating and maneuverability. I think he’s better than you’re characterizing it.

And yes, he will eat pucks. He will sacrifice his body to prevent a goal. Whether his blocked shots totals are high or not, that’s the truth. You can see it from watching the games.

And I definitely do not think he “kills possession with his lack of skill.” He can certainly be upgraded, but the way some posters act like he’s a 7th D is absurd to me.

Anyone have the charts showing Miller’s analytics with Schneider v Trouba?

 

[RangersFan1994]

https://www.sportskeeda.com/us/nhl/...ello-teases-chris-kreider-s-300th-career-goal