Roster Building Thread - Part VIII (2023-24 season)

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People tried to say Fox had a down year last year when he, like, probably should have won the Norris.

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I guess it depends on whether you're in the camp of "the most effective player should win it and offense is part of that equation" or "the Norris winner should be good at defense." Either way, there's an argument for it.

I don't know what the weird expectations on Fox are all about. Did people think he was going to get better after the Norris? Some guys are done developing at 23. If he was, that's fine. He's Adam Fox.
 
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Because it's pretty apparent that Kakko is a moron.

Kreider got the "dumb" label because people expected him to walk in and be Lindros. "All that talent and he's not a star? Must be dum." If they stopped to look for a second, they would have realized that Kreider wasn't a standout producer at any level. He never had that much raw skill.

Kakko, on the other hand, has the skill. He has plenty of opportunities to create offense. Just about every time, he skates right into coverage. He can't carry the puck and read his surroundings at the same time.

When Kreider is parked in front, he knows where the puck is and when it's coming. Kakko doesn't know where up is.

It's not a difference in narrative, it's a difference in ability.
Excuse me but you calling Kakko “moron” holds very little weight with me since I personally don’t recall you calling Kreider a high IQ player in his early days either. Again, Kakko is about the age when Kreider was just entering NHL so whether the Finn ultimately develops a high hockey IQ is at least 50/50.
 
Excuse me but you calling Kakko “moron” holds very little weight with me since I personally don’t recall you calling Kreider a high IQ player in his early days either. Again, Kakko is about the age when Kreider was just entering NHL so whether the Finn ultimately develops a high hockey IQ is at least 50/50.
I don't remember what I said five minutes ago so let's not go off of what I personally said in 2011 when I was a child.
 
On a related note, 3 bozos on the Athletic put together their US World Cup teams for 2025 and none of them had Kreider. And I'm expected to defer to the experts in hockey media? No thanks.
Kreider's going to be good until his strength goes. When guys age out its usually the puck control and quick twitch reaction that go, he just exists and gets tap ins.
 
Kreider's going to be good until his strength goes. When guys age out its usually the puck control and quick twitch reaction that go, he just exists and gets tap ins.

I admit I can be hard on Kreider at times, but its only because he means so much to the team. That being said, he is immovable on the boards. It feels like every one on one battle he comes away with the puck and goes right to the goalie's kitchen. Some guys can protect the puck when they are on the move, but not many are like a block of granite when they are standing still. And because of that he really doesnt take a ton of punishment in front of the net comparatively speaking.
 
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I admit I can be hard on Kreider at times, but its only because he means so much to the team. That being said, he is immovable on the boards. It feels like every one on one battle he comes away with the puck and goes right to the goalie's kitchen. Some guys can protect the puck when they are on the move, but not many are like a block of granite when they are standing still. And because of that he really doesnt take a ton of punishment in front of the net comparatively speaking.
He doesn't take punishment because he's squeaky clean in front of the net and there's no good reason to prompt him into changing that. It's a pretty unique dynamic. He'll get a few crosschecks or whatever but no one else gets as few cheapshots in that area.
 
Thats a fair criticism. My concern is that we are relying on Kakko & Chytil to come back and save our 5v5 play. Im fairly confident in Chytil but Kakko does a lot of stuff that makes his charts look good, but nobody shoots the puck willingly when hes on the ice. That doesnt translate in the playoffs.

My hot take (probably more lukewarm) is that Othmann is going to come up and look better than Kakko immediately. Kinda like Cuylle did. They play a style more suited for the games we want to be playing in.
I feel the same way about Kakko. Tools are all there, he has the size and good hands and he's a skilled player with great puck protection skills. Even with his slow skating, he has skills that could make up for it and still be a top line guy. However, I just don't think he has it in him to put it all together and be a top line scoring player. His hockey sense is just lacking that killer instinct, for lack of a better term, that the top players have. He just seems to not know when to shoot vs when to double back vs when to pass vs when to one time it and so on. He's just a second behind on his processing most time it feels like.

He could end up putting it together but it's really starting to feel like this is just who he's going to be. A solid defensive forward who can pot 15-20 goals and 40ish points. That's a valuable player and can be a key cog in a lineup, but if you can use him as a piece to upgrade his place in the lineup with a guy who can produce more during this contending window I think you have to explore it. Not a rental or an over the hill guy, but someone in their prime who is at least signed for the next season after this one.

Just watch Kakko on the PP, he'll hold the puck too long and try and process while holding and doubling back and then coverage has had time to adjust and he just dumps the puck off on someone else. Compare that to, for example, Brodzinski on that play a few games ago vs Toronoto where he made a quick one time touch pass to Lafreniere throught the PK box and Laf scored. Has Kakko ever shown the ability to make a quick decision like that? And that's Brodzinski, a fringe NHLer, making that play. If that's Kakko in that spot he holds and holds and looks and holds and goes back to Gus at the top.
Everything in the NHL these days has to be fast fast fast, not just the skating. It's the decision making more than anything else. Kakko has the talent and skills to be a star, even with his average speed, but his decision making and pace he plays with just aren't fast enough. I'm not saying he'll never put it together, but if we're looking at this contending window it's not totally unreasonable to see what a Kakko centerpiece could fetch you in a trade for an upgrade over the next 2 seasons.
 
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That's like saying nothing is stopping Kreider from being that guy either. It's not their games. We've seen Kakko play a physical brand of hockey and he can shed off attackers. He's a PIA to play against for most d-men just due to his size, reach and strength as it is. Just because he isn't plowing guys over doesn't mean he is not difficult to play against.
It never hurts though to plow an odd guy over every now and then . If we had a couple of guys doing that a wee bit more often.....some games might be easier for some of our other guys that don't have the size package to play the game with . This would be some kind of special playoff club if they hit the ice in a nasty mood more often then they do now. We have the talent...the D and the goaltending ......we just need to up the nasty level a wee bit . A few more hits and shoves will force many teams to take bad penalties and hence....more PP time for us . Kakko can up his...as can Kreider .
 
I admit I can be hard on Kreider at times, but its only because he means so much to the team. That being said, he is immovable on the boards. It feels like every one on one battle he comes away with the puck and goes right to the goalie's kitchen. Some guys can protect the puck when they are on the move, but not many are like a block of granite when they are standing still. And because of that he really doesnt take a ton of punishment in front of the net comparatively speaking.
He doesn't take punishment because he's squeaky clean in front of the net and there's no good reason to prompt him into changing that. It's a pretty unique dynamic. He'll get a few crosschecks or whatever but no one else gets as few cheapshots in that area.
Both of these are true and it's why I don't really need Kreider to be a bully. Would it be nice if he was? I guess. I still think the incidents for that type of player tend to be out of the ordinary. Tom Wilson, for example, is just another player 75 games out of the year.

Kreider's play along the boards is so perfect that he doesn't need big hits to win battles. He's such a force in front of the net that guys don't bother anymore and focus their attention on not letting the shot come.

This is a good thing because, as Kreider gets well into his 30's, it's less likely that he gets hurt doing something stupid.

Is it the worst thing in the world having a spark plug that runs around a little bit? No, there's a place for it on the roster, but remember that Ryan Callahan was 30 when he started declining hard. Kreider is already about to be 33. Kreider has hit on something more sustainable: he wins battles and pushes play just being himself.

He does elevate when he needs to. That's why he's likely to retire as the most prolific elimination-game scorer in NHL history.
 
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I've heard people poo-pooing this stat as mere circumstance but look at this list. There's a lot more Hall of Famers here than not Hall of Famers.

When Kreider retires, he'll top this list.

Not only that, but I've looked through this whole list, and his team record of 20-9 is also the best on the list.

"One of the clutchest players in NHL history" is not an exaggeration.
 
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There's the regular season, and then there's the playoffs.

Me personally, Im not banking on an almost 30% PP in the playoffs and crunch time leading up to it. What Drury can do with almost no space will be interesting

I'm looking to address 5v5 at the deadline, as did the program I was listening to.
Plenty of PP opportunities in playoffs. All teams tighten up in all areas.
 
He doesn't take punishment because he's squeaky clean in front of the net and there's no good reason to prompt him into changing that. It's a pretty unique dynamic. He'll get a few crosschecks or whatever but no one else gets as few cheapshots in that area.
His scoring also exploded a couple years ago when the league made crosschecking by the net a point of emphasis. It was that season. So basically there's no way to move him now.
 
He doesn't take punishment because he's squeaky clean in front of the net and there's no good reason to prompt him into changing that. It's a pretty unique dynamic. He'll get a few crosschecks or whatever but no one else gets as few cheapshots in that area.
the rules have gotten WAY softer, too. If Kreider was playing 20 or 30 years ago, he'd be broken by now.

Source: I played semi-competitively then as a D, and I had a lot of nasty moves I would get away with.
 
Kreider's going to be good until his strength goes. When guys age out its usually the puck control and quick twitch reaction that go, he just exists and gets tap ins.
Of all the things we talk about on this board, here is one I don't see brought up often.

I will say I think he has a chance to be "like" a Corey Perry in his 35+ years, where he is still of service to a team simply due to his IQ and size
 
On a related note, 3 bozos on the Athletic put together their US World Cup teams for 2025 and none of them had Kreider. And I'm expected to defer to the experts in hockey media? No thanks.
Here's the forwards they have on the team:

Forward: Auston Matthews (C), Jack Hughes (C), Tage Thompson (C), Jack Eichel (C), Matthew Tkachuk (RW), Alex DeBrincat (RW), Clayton Keller (RW), Alex Tuch (RW), Brady Tkachuk (LW), Jason Robertson (LW), Kyle Connor (LW), Johnny Gaudreau (LW)

Here are the forwards they left off:

Other options at forward: Dylan Larkin (C), Cole Caufield (LW), Matty Beniers (C), Trevor Zegras (C), J.T. Miller (C), Troy Terry (RW), Jake Guentzel (RW) Patrick Kane (RW)

Tbh, JT Miller is an even bigger snub than Kreider (although Kreider wasn't even mentioned, so there's that!)

Kreider is better than Keller, Tuch, and DeBrincat. He's better than Brady Tkachuk and DM me if you want to wrestle about it.

That being said, I could see Kreider not being in the starting lineup. The US has really progressed. This is probably my forward group:

Connor-Hughes-M. Tkachuk
Robertson-Matthews-Miller
B. Tkachuk-Thompson-Eichel
Kreider-Larkin-Guentzel

(I have Kreider ahead of Tkachuk but Tkachuk is realistically ahead of him because his name is Tkachuk)

Keller is an extra, Tuch is an extra because his size adds a wrinkle. Gaudreau is not on this team right now, sorry. Kane can expeditiously go f*** himself.

So yeah, I could see Kreider being borderline. I'm more upset that he wasn't even mentioned as a backup.
 
JT Miller not being in is lunacy.

Keller, Gadreau, and DeBrincat are extremely redundant from a team building perspective and I'm not sure any are the best player on their team.

Tage Thompson is also the biggest empty calories guy in the league and not someone you want anywhere close to a game you want to win. Lock to go 1g, 1a, -6.
 
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