Roster Building Thread - Part VIII (2023-24 season)

[bleedblue94]

Lol its easy to say shit in a room.

Its hard to action it on the ice.

I totally disagree with your notion. Actions matter in leadership, not words.

it is also about how a player reps the group in the room to the coach/management and how that player reps the management/coach to the group in the room. that leadership core is like an agent for the players. you pick the wrong guys and they will undermine the coach/management to the rest of the team and fracture it all, if you pick the right group then they will demand and maintain standards among the players without the staff needing to go code red. it is the balance of leadership (from players) vs management (from the staff). right now our group looks like they require management which is unfortunate

The biggest thing about letters is they don't matter at all yet fans get all up in arms about who has them. They don't even generally have them permanently in other sports yet somehow hockey is different and it's a huge thing.

That being said, I have no idea how you think that you, a fan, have a better idea of who is a leader on the team by watching games on TV and in person than the people who are actually with them every day.

I mean you cant dismiss the letters. Players on other teams have talked about it affecting a team in the past. If you have listened to anything from calgary over the past two years it was a glaring issue to the players and the new management that is in place. it is easy to dismiss these things from the outside just like it is easy to make too big of a deal about it at times. it does matter, maybe not as much as some people think though. every group is different

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

If a team NEEDS elite goaltending to win, they aren't winning the Cup. Or more accurately, if your best player is the Goalie, you are cooked.

Vasi was Tampa's best player 3 seasons ago when they won. This is not an accurate statement.

This is the Goals saved above expected for goalies over the last 5 years who have made it to the SCF (amongst all goalies.)

2023: Bobrovsky (1st) Hill (3rd)
2022: Vasilevsky (2nd) Kuemper (28th)
2021: Vasilevsky (1st) Price (2nd)
2020: Vasilevksy (1st) Khudobin (5th)
2019: Rask (1) Binnington (5)
2018: MAF (1) Holtby (2)

Guys generally have to be very good to elite to win. Every cup finalist in the last 6 years aside from 1 has been.

If you want to bump it to 2017 Rinne was #1 and the combo of MAF/Murray (they split time because Murray was hurt going into the playoffs) would have been #3.

Again, its not that you need your guy to be an elite goalie (aka, sustain high level of play for long periods of time) but your guy certain has to be elite for most, if not all of the playoffs. Theres more to it than that but unless you're Colorado (and the 2932329320329302923 breaks they got along the way, which are also a factor), you aren't winning with shit goaltending.

 

[Savant]

This is missing the point. Any guy that’s won the Vezina more than once is an elite goalie. Guys as consistent as Lundqvist are impossible to find. There will be ebbs and flows. He was elite in the playoffs.

As to the second part of your post, my point is that with this roster they need an elite goalie to win this year. I’m not speculating about roster construction or contract speculation. The time to explore trading Shesterkin is next summer. Not now.

I mean we acquired Patrick Kane last year. Is he still elite based on his form as a Ranger? His recent form as a Blackhawk? His history says he is elite. Recent form does not. And recent history reinforces you don’t need an elite goalie to win a cup

 

[DelZottoHitTheNetJK]

I hope he does because others worry about such things and I don’t. He can be 50, 60 or 1.3.


Nice that they make correct choices

Lol stop.

Kravtsov, Andersson, McIlrath, the Buchnevich trade

Correct choices only over here!

Brennan was ready last year. We didn't want to burn a year off his pro contract and I get that. There's no excuse now. And for the record I like Cuylle. Maybe he was better at this camp (he was horrible in his stint last year). Organizationally the right move was to keep Othmann. But we just couldn't get it right if it smacked us in the face (see: Alexis Lafreniere)

 

[haohmaru]

I mean we acquired Patrick Kane last year. Is he still elite based on his form as a Ranger? His recent form as a Blackhawk? His history says he is elite. Recent form does not. And recent history reinforces you don’t need an elite goalie to win a cup

Vasilevskiy is widely considered to be the top 1, 2, or 3 best goalie in the world. Two cups. Bob was 39-7-3 two years ago and led the league in wins. He's an up and down goalie, sure but when he's up he's waaaay up. And, in any event, I haven't made ANY kind of argument that a team HAS to have an elite goalie to win a Cup. It's an argument I haven't made.

-However-

The Rangers are not good enough to win a Cup without an elite goaltender THIS YEAR. If Igor doesn't stand on his head then we aren't winning anything.

The Kane comparison is dogshit. Everyone and their mom knew he was hurt including the Rangers. Nobody should've had "elite" expectations from him.

 

[Savant]

Vasilevskiy is widely considered to be the top 1, 2, or 3 best goalie in the world. Two cups. Bob was 39-7-3 two years ago and led the league in wins. He's an up and down goalie, sure but when he's up he's waaaay up. And, in any event, I haven't made ANY kind of argument that a team HAS to have an elite goalie to win a Cup. It's an argument I haven't made.

-However-

The Rangers are not good enough to win a Cup without an elite goaltender THIS YEAR. If Igor doesn't stand on his head then we aren't winning anything.

The Kane comparison is dogshit. Everyone and their mom knew he was hurt including the Rangers. Nobody should've had "elite" expectations from him.

I mean it’s not though. Bob isn’t elite if he is up and down. Those things contradict each other. If you are saying Bob is elite because he was previously Vezina caliber, you have to say Kane is elite because he was previously Hart caliber.

Rangers aren’t good enough to win a cup with an elite goaltender this season either. So why wait a year and let value drop with him as a rental. It’s bad asset management

 

[Oscar Lindberg]

Lol stop.

Kravtsov, Andersson, McIlrath, the Buchnevich trade

Correct choices only over here!

Brennan was ready last year. We didn't want to burn a year off his pro contract and I get that. There's no excuse now. And for the record I like Cuylle. Maybe he was better at this camp (he was horrible in his stint last year). Organizationally the right move was to keep Othmann. But we just couldn't get it right if it smacked us in the face (see: Alexis Lafreniere)

He was not ready last year lol

He looked like shit in camp

 

[Levitate]

The thing with goalies is that you don't need one that's elite all the time to win the cup, but you almost always need one that plays at a high level in the playoffs.

But if you're penny pinching on goalies with the assumption "they'll turn it on in the playoffs!" you're just gambling there that it'll work out. It might, it might not, it might sink your cup run.
Having an elite goalie means you can be pretty darn sure it's not going to be your goalie that's an issue and you can focus on other parts of the team rather than rolling the dice with replacement level players and crossing your fingers that they'll step it up at the right time.

But all that said, it's also tough to pay your goalie a huge chunk of the salary cap

 

[I Eat Crow]

The thing with goalies is that you don't need one that's elite all the time to win the cup, but you almost always need one that plays at a high level in the playoffs.

But if you're penny pinching on goalies with the assumption "they'll turn it on in the playoffs!" you're just gambling there that it'll work out. It might, it might not, it might sink your cup run.
Having an elite goalie means you can be pretty darn sure it's not going to be your goalie that's an issue and you can focus on other parts of the team rather than rolling the dice with replacement level players and crossing your fingers that they'll step it up at the right time.

But all that said, it's also tough to pay your goalie a huge chunk of the salary cap

I'm in the @Machinehead boat of goalie theory. It's random has hell and you don't need a high end goalie to win a Cup. Even the elite goalies shit the bed in the playoffs sometimes. All you need is a middle of the road goalie playing well to go deep. Elite skaters going on hot streaks, depth, and luck, in that order, are the major factors that distinguish between a deep run and a first round exit.

Igor was pedestrian and the top guys except for Krieder shit the bed against the Devils. No surprise they were eliminated.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

I'm in the @Machinehead boat of goalie theory. It's random has hell and you don't need a high end goalie to win a Cup. Even the elite goalies shit the bed in the playoffs sometimes. All you need is a middle of the road goalie playing well to go deep. Elite skaters going on hot streaks, depth, and luck, in that order, are the major factors that distinguish between a deep run and a first round exit.

Igor was pedestrian and the top guys except for Krieder shit the bed against the Devils. No surprise they were eliminated.

Igor had the 2nd highest Goals Saved above expected of every goalie who played in the playoffs last year.

He played 7 games. He was anything but pedestrian.

The top guys shitting the bed is why they lost.

 

[haohmaru]

I mean it’s not though. Bob isn’t elite if he is up and down. Those things contradict each other. If you are saying Bob is elite because he was previously Vezina caliber, you have to say Kane is elite because he was previously Hart caliber.

Rangers aren’t good enough to win a cup with an elite goaltender this season either. So why wait a year and let value drop with him as a rental. It’s bad asset management

A guy that's won the Vezina twice is an elite goalie. That's really all there is to it. He lead the league in GSAA both years he won the Vezina and, wouldn't you know it, lead the league last year in the playoffs.

Kane was hurt. Bob wasn't. It's a flawed argument. Kane didn't perform well. Bob took his team to the Cup Final.

The Rangers ARE good enough to win if Igor stands on his head. We can agree to disagree.

We're just talking in circles at this point so I'll move on.

 

[I Eat Crow]

Igor had the 2nd highest Goals Saved above expected of every goalie who played in the playoffs last year.

He played 7 games. He was anything but pedestrian.

The top guys shitting the bed is why they lost.

He was great in 5 of 7 games. He had maybe two eggs in games 4 and 5 but was otherwise fine. We've been spoiled by Hank. He's stolen more games and series than anyone else in franchise history. I guess my point is that Igor was good, but didn't will the team past Jersey, but who could blame him?

 

[bbny]

So we just announced we’re rolling with a captain and 5 alternates. Why do we do embarrassing shit like this? 1/3 of the skaters on the roster are captains? That’s a lot of “leadership” on a team that has questionable leadership.

Trouba and Fox, Goodrow, Kreider, Zibanejad and Panarin.

And what world does Panarin deserve a letter in? All he does is dodge interviews and pretend it’s cute while playing a completely unstructured game however he wants to play.

It's like the personalities are too soft on this team to take the rejection of a letter. Give me a break.

 

[Jack Hanson]

Igor is a great goalie. Other areas of the Rangers are broken. Fix whats broken. The idea of trading Igor seems like giving up before the season even started officially. One of the reasons NYC sports teams tend not to do well is the excessive criticism that gets inside the players heads. I think its good we have a new coach, and hes experimenting with new lines. The pre season was dissapointing but think of it as something they can learn from. Like in the 1st game Rangers vs Devils most of the goals they gave up were on power plays. Number 1 dont commit the penalty. Number 2 improve the defense. But dont trade Igor, thats a horrible idea. Dont give up on the Rangers, they could start to find better offensive combos and gel with the new coaches ideas. Lets Go Rangers!! Get Riled Up For Season Opener!!

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

IF anyone wants to point to an example of an elite goalie going full pumpkin during the playoffs, Jake Ottenger is a perfect example.

He had one of the greatest 7 game performances of all time in a losing effort vs Calgary in 2022.

He was literally the worst starting goalie who played during the playoffs last year (to the point where he lost his job.)

He was great in 5 of 7 games. He had maybe two eggs in games 4 and 5 but was otherwise fine. We've been spoiled by Hank. He's stolen more games and series than anyone else in franchise history. I guess my point is that Igor was good, but didn't will the team past Jersey, but who could blame him?

Hank had bad playoff games/series too and gave up some ass goals along the way (which is going to happen.)

I'll say this much, Hank NEVER did was Igor did for this team in 2022.

 

[LOFIN]

Has to be remembered that with the way scoring going up, it's way harder for goalies to "steal games" than it used to be. Even with a great performance, you still probably allow two goals. You need to score 3, and it's kinda hard to do that if a guy like Panarin has 2 assists in a 7 game series.

 

[bernmeister]

Igor is a great goalie. Other areas of the Rangers are broken. Fix whats broken. The idea of trading Igor seems like giving up before the season even started officially. One of the reasons NYC sports teams tend not to do well is the excessive criticism that gets inside the players heads. I think its good we have a new coach, and hes experimenting with new lines. The pre season was dissapointing but think of it as something they can learn from. Like in the 1st game Rangers vs Devils most of the goals they gave up were on power plays. Number 1 dont commit the penalty. Number 2 improve the defense. But dont trade Igor, thats a horrible idea. Dont give up on the Rangers, they could start to find better offensive combos and gel with the new coaches ideas. Lets Go Rangers!! Get Riled Up For Season Opener!!

yeah fix, but signif fix = signif correction = signif value applied including premium assets in trade if the return is premium help.
we don't have to trade Shesty + if we don't want to get Sanderson +
but less than premium help may not be enuf

we made a lot of mistakes and we likely have to go bold to fix

 

[Filthy Dangles]

Disagree. Bobrovsky is the biggest reason for the Panthers run.

Uh..Matthew Tkachuk?

Bobrovsky for once wasn't a liabiltiy and made some saves but he was not stealing them games. He was giving his team a chance and allowed the Panthers as a group to settle in and go on a run

 

[GAGLine]

22 thoughts: One for every player who made the NY Rangers' 2023-24 roster

The Blueshirts' opening-night roster is set. Let's evaluate the guys who made the cut.

www.lohud.com

 

[Filthy Dangles]

He was great in 5 of 7 games. He had maybe two eggs in games 4 and 5 but was otherwise fine. We've been spoiled by Hank. He's stolen more games and series than anyone else in franchise history. I guess my point is that Igor was good, but didn't will the team past Jersey, but who could blame him?

Rangers had a 40% expected goal share at even strength vs the debs. 21 expected goals against!, 10 actual goals against.

I know he's played on some lackluster teams in terms of star power, but has a team in front of Lundqvist ever gotten their shit pushed in like that?

Igor was the only reason that series wasn't over in like 5.

 

[TGWL]

Rangers had a 40% expected goal share at even strength vs the debs. 21 expected goals against!, 10 actual goals against.

I know he's played on some lackluster teams in terms of star power, but has a team in front of Lundqvist ever gotten their shit pushed in like that?

Igor was the only reason that series wasn't over in like 5.

Just about every playoff series...

 

[Synergy27]

Tampa paid Vasi. Can we please not with the bullshit.

Ya just gotta get creative and be smart. That's something I can agree with, how we manage to overpay the players who are not worth it. Let's not do that one anymore.

I’ve made this point a billion times so I hesitate to add one more, but the Lightning have done nothing but decline and blow up their team since signing Vasi to that contract. They did, in fairness, win a Cup by severely circumventing the Cap one time, but I digress.

I’d be willing to give Shesterkin a retirement contract if it came after the team won the Cup. It’s just too hard to piece together a winning team around a very highly paid goalie. It’s an inherent limitation of the cap.

Oh yeah. It’s also a very bad idea to pay a one dimensional, declining winger who doesn’t thrive in the playoffs a top 5 in the league salary.

 

[I Eat Crow]

Rangers had a 40% expected goal share at even strength vs the debs. 21 expected goals against!, 10 actual goals against.

I know he's played on some lackluster teams in terms of star power, but has a team in front of Lundqvist ever gotten their shit pushed in like that?

Igor was the only reason that series wasn't over in like 5.

Yep. Countless times. Lundqvist is THE reason the Rangers beat Washington in 2015 and Pittsburgh in 2014. The Rangers got their teeth kicked in both times and Lundqvist came up huge when he needed to to give them a chance.

 

[Filthy Dangles]

Just about every playoff series...

Yep. Countless times. Lundqvist is THE reason the Rangers beat Washington in 2015 and Pittsburgh in 2014. The Rangers got their teeth kicked in both times and Lundqvist came up huge when he needed to to give them a chance.

No one is saying Lundqvist never stole games or series......i'm saying a team in front him never got their shit so far pushed in like they did last year against Jersey.

It's really not close. Devils almost lapped the Rangers in high-danger scoring chances at even strength.

54 vs 98.
11 goals saved above expected.

No team in front of HEnrik Lunqdvist got consistently and as outplayed as they did last year against the debs, it's almost a fact.

2011 vs Craps is somewhat close, Hank wasn't a savior that year though.

 

[Profet]

No one is saying Lundqvist never stole games or series......i'm saying a team in front him never got their shit so far pushed in like they did last year against Jersey.

It's really not close. Devils almost lapped the Rangers in high-danger scoring chances at even strength.

54 vs 98. 11 goals saved above expected.

No team in front of HEnrik Lunqdvist got consistently and as outplayed as they did last year against the debs, it's almost a fact.

2011 vs Craps is close, Hank wasn't a savior that year though.

Torts' 6 goalie blocking system had taught those teams how to play defense.

They didn't score a ton, but they knew how to frustrate the crap out of offensive teams.