Speculation: Roster Building Thread Part VII: Now with less frenzy!

[Machinehead]

Really, it would have been in this team's best interest if AV got canned after we lost three games in LA in the SCF and led in all of them, including FOUR two-goal leads.

I understand fully why that didn't happen, but just imagine our 2014-15 team with a competent coach.

 

[Irishguy42]

Really, it would have been in this team's best interest if AV got canned after we lost three games in LA in the SCF and led in all of them, including FOUR two-goal leads.

I understand fully why that didn't happen, but just imagine our 2014-15 team with a competent coach.

FWIW, I think the 14-15 team would have been just fine with AV as the head coach.

The real issue was Zucc almost dying at the end of the first round and then half the defense ended up playing on broken ankles/feet.

I think, if Zucc wasn't injured, they would have beaten Tampa and they would have had a decent chance of beating the Hawks.

Also, when was the last time a head coach was hired/fired after one season? Keeping AV after the loss in the SCF was fine. What wasn't fine was the abomination that was the Summer of 2014.

 

[Ola]

The problem with Hayes is that he is only a number two center on a bad team and more realistically a number three on a good team. There are a lot of number three centers with bad contracts.

Like who? Who is compareable to Hayes with a co tract that is deemed bad?

Hanzal signed a 3.1 m contract in 2012. That was deemed to be a very cap friendly contract. Contracts have gone up a lot the last 6 years. At the age of 31 Hanzal got a 4.75m contract. He hasn’t been great lately and he has been injured a lot. If Hayes got a 5 year deal, it would END at 31.

The aim is not for this rebuild to be a 7-8 year thing that could end up going on for decades like it have in some places. It might not be a 1-2 year thing, but it’s not aimed to bottom out and get 5 straight top 4 picks.

Everyone knows it, Gorton will spend cap space the coming 4-5 years. Will we find better options to spend it on than Hayes? There is like two targets out there the coming YEARS, more or less, Panarin and Karlsson. Trouba? Odds are that we will end up signing some bum for 7m per that isn’t even a good player...

 

[NYRFAN218]

FWIW, I think the 14-15 team would have been just fine with AV as the head coach.

The real issue was Zucc almost dying at the end of the first round and then half the defense ended up playing on broken ankles/feet.

I think, if Zucc wasn't injured, they would have beaten Tampa and they would have had a decent chance of beating the Hawks.

Also, when was the last time a head coach was hired/fired after one season? Keeping AV after the loss in the SCF was fine. What wasn't fine was the abomination that was the Summer of 2014.

Yeah. I know the underlying numbers weren't great with the 14-15 team but even then, they came within 1 period of going to the Cup Final with no Zuccarello and basically an entire defense playing with some sort of injury, many of which were significant. And that was against a team that was supposed to be a match up nightmare for us.

 

[Machinehead]

FWIW, I think the 14-15 team would have been just fine with AV as the head coach.

The real issue was Zucc almost dying at the end of the first round and then half the defense ended up playing on broken ankles/feet.

I think, if Zucc wasn't injured, they would have beaten Tampa and they would have had a decent chance of beating the Hawks.

Also, when was the last time a head coach was hired/fired after one season? Keeping AV after the loss in the SCF was fine. What wasn't fine was the abomination that was the Summer of 2014.

Yeah we f***ed that whole thing up. It went way beyond the coaching.

And you're right, it was one year. We couldn't have known at the time that blowing every lead ever in the playoffs would become the norm for him.

 

[Machinehead]

Yeah. I know the underlying numbers weren't great with the 14-15 team but even then, they came within 1 period of going to the Cup Final with no Zuccarello and basically an entire defense playing with some sort of injury, many of which were significant. And that was against a team that was supposed to be a match up nightmare for us.

The underlying numbers weren't that bad in 14-15. They produced a lot of quantity for and they were legitimately elite at shot quality metrics.

The only knock against them was quantity against but that can be explained away by Girardi playing about 10 minutes per game past his expiration date.

It was really 15-16 when AV decided to go full "I literally hate having the puck."

 

[Machinehead]

Yeah. I know the underlying numbers weren't great with the 14-15 team but even then, they came within 1 period of going to the Cup Final with no Zuccarello and basically an entire defense playing with some sort of injury, many of which were significant. And that was against a team that was supposed to be a match up nightmare for us.

The underlying numbers weren't that bad in 14-15. They produced a lot of quantity for and they were legitimately elite at shot quality metrics.

The only knock against them was quantity against but that can be explained away by Girardi playing about 10 minutes per game past his expiration date.

It was really 15-16 when AV decided to go full "I literally hate having the puck."

 

[Machinehead]

Yeah. I know the underlying numbers weren't great with the 14-15 team but even then, they came within 1 period of going to the Cup Final with no Zuccarello and basically an entire defense playing with some sort of injury, many of which were significant. And that was against a team that was supposed to be a match up nightmare for us.

The underlying numbers weren't that bad in 14-15. They produced a lot of quantity for and they were legitimately elite at shot quality metrics.

The only knock against them was quantity against but that can be explained away by Girardi playing about 10 minutes per game past his expiration date.

It was really 15-16 when AV decided to go full "I literally hate having the puck."

 

[Machinehead]

Like I said, I don't blame the team for keeping AV at the time. We all would have.

Just waxing with 20/20 hindsight.

After 15-16 you had a legitimate argument and it's a crime against humanity that he worked another second for this team after 16-17.

He may have lost the easiest second-round matchup in NHL history that year. It was pretty much the same Sens team that embarrassed the sport this year except Karlsson was being God and their division was easier.

 

[Lindberg Cheese]

The problem with Hayes is that he is only a number two center on a bad team and more realistically a number three on a good team. There are a lot of number three centers with bad contracts.

Shhhhh, dont tell anybody - we have to build up his value on the main boards like we did Nash

 

[NYR]

Depends on what UFA's we're talking about.

Karlsson and Panarin are world-class players in their prime. Signing them would be more akin to the Messier trade in terms of on-ice output than any of the failed signings in more recent years.

You can sign both of them tomorrow and it wouldn't make a difference.
If anything..It puts them right where they've been all along ..

 

[Kakko]

You can sign both of them tomorrow and it wouldn't make a difference.
If anything..It puts them right where they've been all along ..

You don't think this team would be better with Karlsson and Panarin than with McDonagh and Nash? I don't know if they'd have competed last season, but with those two and our young core, something would have come of it.

 

[Mikos87]

Maybe we can do something with Calgary

where we end up with salary dumps Hamonic and Frolik as well as Bennett, 1st rounder and one of their top prospects

and they end up with salary dump Staal, Vesey, Hayes and DeAngelo.

CGY doesn't view Hamonic as a salary dump. IMO the team that Hayes is a great fit for is COL. COL has done a nice job of building their prospect pipeline (Duchene deal lol) that they have the currency to pull it off and re-sign him. But... the big but that might sting a bit, is to take on Soderberg... who will have 1 year left next year.

If you facilitate an opportunity for them to re-sign Hayes, then you can ask for a chips in a trade, but I don't see COL paying a premium for Hayes, but just a good fit for the player.

IMO a good deal with CGY would be Vesey for Bennett if the latter doesn't show any improvement. It's a good pick up for the Rangers in the hopes that Bennett is a better fit in the East, and CGY gets a player with size that will score more goals, but plays the same type of minutes as Bennett.

On the Rangers Bennett becomes a cheaper version with Names with some upside. You just don't see a multiplayer deal that involves a few "cap dumps". It's cutting your nose to spite your face to with the objective to still suck or stay where you are at.

 

[Mikos87]

Maybe we can do something with Calgary

where we end up with salary dumps Hamonic and Frolik as well as Bennett, 1st rounder and one of their top prospects

and they end up with salary dump Staal, Vesey, Hayes and DeAngelo.

CGY doesn't view Hamonic as a salary dump. IMO the team that Hayes is a great fit for is COL. COL has done a nice job of building their prospect pipeline (Duchene deal lol) that they have the currency to pull it off and re-sign him. But... the big but that might sting a bit, is to take on Soderberg... who will have 1 year left next year.

If you facilitate an opportunity for them to re-sign Hayes, then you can ask for a chips in a trade, but I don't see COL paying a premium for Hayes, but just a good fit for the player.

IMO a good deal with CGY would be Vesey for Bennett if the latter doesn't show any improvement. It's a good pick up for the Rangers in the hopes that Bennett is a better fit in the East, and CGY gets a player with size that will score more goals, but plays the same type of minutes as Bennett.

On the Rangers Bennett becomes a cheaper version with Names with some upside. You just don't see a multiplayer deal that involves a few "cap dumps". It's cutting your nose to spite your face to with the objective to still suck or stay where you are at.

 

[Mikos87]

Maybe we can do something with Calgary

where we end up with salary dumps Hamonic and Frolik as well as Bennett, 1st rounder and one of their top prospects

and they end up with salary dump Staal, Vesey, Hayes and DeAngelo.

CGY doesn't view Hamonic as a salary dump. IMO the team that Hayes is a great fit for is COL. COL has done a nice job of building their prospect pipeline (Duchene deal lol) that they have the currency to pull it off and re-sign him. But... the big but that might sting a bit, is to take on Soderberg... who will have 1 year left next year.

If you facilitate an opportunity for them to re-sign Hayes, then you can ask for a chips in a trade, but I don't see COL paying a premium for Hayes, but just a good fit for the player.

IMO a good deal with CGY would be Vesey for Bennett if the latter doesn't show any improvement. It's a good pick up for the Rangers in the hopes that Bennett is a better fit in the East, and CGY gets a player with size that will score more goals, but plays the same type of minutes as Bennett.

On the Rangers Bennett becomes a cheaper version with Names with some upside. You just don't see a multiplayer deal that involves a few "cap dumps". It's cutting your nose to spite your face to with the objective to still suck or stay where you are at.

 

[NYR]

You don't think this team would be better with Karlsson and Panarin than with McDonagh and Nash? I don't know if they'd have competed last season, but with those two and our young core, something would have come of it.

Add them to this current line up and they're still bottom 5, if not a bubble team..
You been watching Ottawa?

 

[Mac n Gs]

Yeah, Hayes and Colorado are a really good fit right now. We could add to help give Colorado some pieces to gear up for Cup runs these next few years, but that’s dependent on them being willing to move one of their better prospects.

I wish we could get their top guys, but I’m trying to be realistic with myself and it’s why I said I could see something around Kamenev, Shyvrov, or Nic Meloche.

 

[Mac n Gs]

CGY doesn't view Hamonic as a salary dump. IMO the team that Hayes is a great fit for is COL. COL has done a nice job of building their prospect pipeline (Duchene deal lol) that they have the currency to pull it off and re-sign him. But... the big but that might sting a bit, is to take on Soderberg... who will have 1 year left next year.

If you facilitate an opportunity for them to re-sign Hayes, then you can ask for a chips in a trade, but I don't see COL paying a premium for Hayes, but just a good fit for the player.

IMO a good deal with CGY would be Vesey for Bennett if the latter doesn't show any improvement. It's a good pick up for the Rangers in the hopes that Bennett is a better fit in the East, and CGY gets a player with size that will score more goals, but plays the same type of minutes as Bennett.

On the Rangers Bennett becomes a cheaper version with Names with some upside. You just don't see a multiplayer deal that involves a few "cap dumps". It's cutting your nose to spite your face to with the objective to still suck or stay where you are at.

Yeah, they’d be a good fit. I’d really like to get one of their better guys like Timmins, but Hayes on a one year deal may hurt his value. It’s why I was realistic with myself and brought up guys like Kamenev, Shyvrov, and Nic Meloche

 

[Kakko]

Add them to this current line up and they're still bottom 5, if not a bubble team..
You been watching Ottawa?

Ottawa is Karlsson and Stone. Our supporting cast is far better, even just considering Lundqvist

 

[Machinehead]

You can sign both of them tomorrow and it wouldn't make a difference.
If anything..It puts them right where they've been all along ..

Karlsson might be the best defenseman this team has ever had. Only Leetch is ini his universe. It would make a difference.

 

[Machinehead]

Add them to this current line up and they're still bottom 5, if not a bubble team..
You been watching Ottawa?

Now, yes. You're probably right.

In a few years, acquiring elite talent could be the difference between a Cup and being right back where we were.

If it gets to the point where Karlsson/Panarin are old before they make a difference, we f***ed up the rebuild anyway.

This isn't like signing veterans to go for it. Signing a Karlsson or Panarin is a move for the next decade.

 

[haohmaru]

Karlsson might be the best defenseman this team has ever had. Only Leetch is ini his universe. It would make a difference.

Park & Leetch

 

[Mikos87]

Yeah, they’d be a good fit. I’d really like to get one of their better guys like Timmins, but Hayes on a one year deal may hurt his value. It’s why I was realistic with myself and brought up guys like Kamenev, Shyvrov, and Nic Meloche

I like Kamenev a lot. Some people think he's got a lot of skill, but IMO he's going to be a very good 3rd line center. A long rangy Anisimov type of player. COL is looking to take the next step, but they are a one line team that had success thanks to a commitment to total team defense after they got the lead.

They played better without Barrie last year. Nemeth & Zadorov were studs for them last year. Getting Timmins & Makar on that team, and shedding Barrie will create a very good defense corps.

Still need a 2nd and 3rd line center that can slot in. Otherwise COL is in a good spot.

 

[Machinehead]

I could see Panarin because he isn't quite that level of talent, but there's absolutely no excuse not to offer Karlsson the moon.

There's no franchise, no outlook, and no plan that he doesn't fit into. You make him fit. He is the plan.

He might be the best u30 player to ever hit free agency if he gets there.

"Erik Karlsson killed my dog and ate him" isn't a good excuse to not sign Karlsson.

 

[Machinehead]

Also, we can't bring up Ottawa in 2018 without bringing up Ottawa in 2017, when Karlsson almost went to the SCF by himself.

He made a team worse than ours a contender by himself.

He probably should have won the Conn Smythe that year without appearing in the Finals.