Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part LXXIX - Clever Title

[Tob]

We had the 5th highest scoring offense in the NHL last year under Quinn. Wanting guys to play good defense doesnt mean they are suffocating them offensively

and telling a kid to “not do this, do that” etc is called coaching. We want him to give instruction to players. If he didnt i would be worried.

There's a balance but from Kakko's tone and response that he stopped trying to be creative, it sounds to me like he was being suffocated. Lias and Vitali, however much fault lies with the two players and their immaturity, they were both good kids and neither were given enough of the carrot to make their time with the Rangers in camp or otherwise for them to seem happy. Kakko was definitely frustrated. Alexis has played 11 games in the NHL and has 0 points in a non sudden death format. Gauthier has played like 200 minutes and doesn't have a goal and only 2 assists. Lemieux hasn't taken a step offensively or shown flashes even in the 2+ calendar years that he's been a Ranger. Howden has been blah since day 1 with no improvements offensively in his 3rd season now. Fil looked great this year and I'm being disingenuous here but as far as I can tell, since 2017-2018 to now, he's had a career high 23 points with some but still speculative progress on paper. All of these number as a whole for all of our young players shuffled together plus the way Vitali left and the Lias AWOL paints a very revealing picture for me

 

[Off Sides]

There's a balance but from Kakko's tone and response that he stopped trying to be creative, it sounds to me like he was being suffocated. Lias and Vitali, however much fault lies with the two players and their immaturity, they were both good kids and neither were given enough of the carrot to make their time with the Rangers in camp or otherwise for them to seem happy. Kakko was definitely frustrated. Alexis has played 11 games in the NHL and has 0 points in a non sudden death format. Gauthier has played like 200 minutes and doesn't have a goal and only 2 assists. Lemieux hasn't taken a step offensively or shown flashes even in the 2+ calendar years that he's been a Ranger. Howden has been blah since day 1 with no improvements offensively in his 3rd season now. Fil looked great this year and I'm being disingenuous here but as far as I can tell, since 2017-2018 to now, he's had a career high 23 points with some but still speculative progress on paper. All of these number as a whole for all of our young players shuffled together plus the way Vitali left and the Lias AWOL paints a very revealing picture for me

I don't think you are wrong with any of that.

For Kakko and Laf at least, to me at least it sort of means either one of three things in a binary sort of way. It's going to take longer for those youths to do stuff, the Rangers are screwing up somewhere, or they are not that good.

Yet it probably means something in between all of that, Rangers are not doing the best they could with them, they are not the most top end franchise level prospects (like Crosby, McDavid and such), and they are going to take longer developmentally to reach whatever potential they do have, no matter if on the Rangers or somewhere else.

 

[howztheglass]

After looking around at some of the players on the block or thought to be on the block. I was looking at Vancouver whom is really struggling and might be in the need of a shake up and needs help on defense. Could they be a team looking at ADA ? Doubt it but I’ll throw this offer out there.

ADA
Goat
Buffalo’s 3rd pick—most likely higher then ours in the draft.

For

Virtanen
Gaudette
Benn
Vancouver’s 2rd pick

Virtanen and Gaudette are both RFA—Benn will be a UFA. Benn replaces Libor/Smith/Johnson on the third pair.
Virtanen needs a change of scenery. Gaudette could be a sleeper at center for us.

Vancouver gets ADA to run their PP with Hughes or their number 2 PP. Goat whom I like but will never get a chance with Quinn gives Vancouver a replacement for either Gaudette on the wing or Virtanen’s spot.

Fill of picks is for helping Vancouver cover their cap space issue.

Problem child for problem child plus some extras thrown in to make it a value for both teams.

Cap space is really close approx 5.5 leaving Vancouver and 5.4 going in.

I wish we could fill ADA for Bennett but that doesn’t seem to be on Calgary’s wish list.

Ok is this a fair offer ?

 

[Ruggs225]

There's a balance but from Kakko's tone and response that he stopped trying to be creative, it sounds to me like he was being suffocated. Lias and Vitali, however much fault lies with the two players and their immaturity, they were both good kids and neither were given enough of the carrot to make their time with the Rangers in camp or otherwise for them to seem happy. Kakko was definitely frustrated. Alexis has played 11 games in the NHL and has 0 points in a non sudden death format. Gauthier has played like 200 minutes and doesn't have a goal and only 2 assists. Lemieux hasn't taken a step offensively or shown flashes even in the 2+ calendar years that he's been a Ranger. Howden has been blah since day 1 with no improvements offensively in his 3rd season now. Fil looked great this year and I'm being disingenuous here but as far as I can tell, since 2017-2018 to now, he's had a career high 23 points with some but still speculative progress on paper. All of these number as a whole for all of our young players shuffled together plus the way Vitali left and the Lias AWOL paints a very revealing picture for me

So u are complaining about 18 and 19 year olds not dominating basically. Only one person in Kravys draft who was selected after him has over 30 pts. Kakko is the second highest scoring player in his draft. And laf is 11 games in a caree in which he didnt play hockey for 10 months, no exhibition games and limited time with coaches due to covid.

And complaing about lemiuex and who is a 4th liner and gauthier who didnt do crap in his previous organization either. Same goes for Anderson who is doing nothing in LA

what about fox who is ateller, deangelo who had a career year, panarin who had a career year, zib who had a career year, buch who has progressed massively, and now miller who is doing well. Or are we going to pretend that none of that happened to fit your narrative.

again u are complaining about sub 20 year olds who are struggling in the time of a pandemic where nothing is normal.

im far from a person who thinks quinn is a great coach, but your positions here are laughable. Quinn ia not saying sont be creative. He is saying be defensively responsible so we dont have a shooting gallery against our young goalies.

 

[smoneil]

There's a balance but from Kakko's tone and response that he stopped trying to be creative, it sounds to me like he was being suffocated. Lias and Vitali, however much fault lies with the two players and their immaturity, they were both good kids and neither were given enough of the carrot to make their time with the Rangers in camp or otherwise for them to seem happy. Kakko was definitely frustrated. Alexis has played 11 games in the NHL and has 0 points in a non sudden death format. Gauthier has played like 200 minutes and doesn't have a goal and only 2 assists. Lemieux hasn't taken a step offensively or shown flashes even in the 2+ calendar years that he's been a Ranger. Howden has been blah since day 1 with no improvements offensively in his 3rd season now. Fil looked great this year and I'm being disingenuous here but as far as I can tell, since 2017-2018 to now, he's had a career high 23 points with some but still speculative progress on paper. All of these number as a whole for all of our young players shuffled together plus the way Vitali left and the Lias AWOL paints a very revealing picture for me

I could MAYBE get Quinn's logic here if he was in the process of trying to build a complete game in these kids. Something like "don't even try to drive play--just focus on playing the defensive side of the game right now." I used to do something similar when coaching soccer. If I had a midfielder who was all offense and never tracked back, I'd put him on D and work with him on JUST that without the stress of being expected to learn D AND carry the O. Once he'd start getting it, I'd move him up and start working on getting the right balance. IF that's what's happening here (I'm no Quinn apologist by any stretch), it still doesn't make a ton of sense, as that's the kind of thing that should be happening in the AHL, where the kids could get 20+ minutes a night to work on that and make progress that much more quickly.

 

[Tob]

I don't think you are wrong with any of that.

For Kakko and Laf at least, to me at least it sort of means either one of three things in a black and white way. It's going to take longer for those youths to do stuff, the Rangers are screwing up somewhere, or they are not that good.

Yet it probably means something in between all of that, Rangers are not doing the best they could with them, they are not the most top end franchise level prospects (like Crosby, McDavid and such), and they are going to take longer developmentally to reach whatever potential they do have, no matter if on the Rangers or somewhere else.

Ya, i'm not saying they're doomed but reading between the lines, it sound like Quinn is too strict. I could make the other side of that argument as well. In the big picture, perhaps giving the kids more offensive leeway is good for their love of the game and confidence. Several seasons of the same "dont do this don't do that" sounds like a bad thing to me.

 

[Crease]

There's a balance but from Kakko's tone and response that he stopped trying to be creative, it sounds to me like he was being suffocated. Lias and Vitali, however much fault lies with the two players and their immaturity, they were both good kids and neither were given enough of the carrot to make their time with the Rangers in camp or otherwise for them to seem happy. Kakko was definitely frustrated. Alexis has played 11 games in the NHL and has 0 points in a non sudden death format. Gauthier has played like 200 minutes and doesn't have a goal and only 2 assists. Lemieux hasn't taken a step offensively or shown flashes even in the 2+ calendar years that he's been a Ranger. Howden has been blah since day 1 with no improvements offensively in his 3rd season now. Fil looked great this year and I'm being disingenuous here but as far as I can tell, since 2017-2018 to now, he's had a career high 23 points with some but still speculative progress on paper. All of these number as a whole for all of our young players shuffled together plus the way Vitali left and the Lias AWOL paints a very revealing picture for me

“Developmental coach” is just a title you give to coaches who haven’t won anything at the NHL level.

 

[Tob]

So u are complaining about 18 and 19 year olds not dominating basically. Only one person in Kravys draft who was selected after him has over 30 pts. Kakko is the second highest scoring player in his draft. And laf is 11 games in a caree in which he didnt play hockey for 10 months, no exhibition games and limited time with coaches due to covid.

And complaing about lemiuex and who is a 4th liner and gauthier who didnt do crap in his previous organization either. Same goes for Anderson who is doing nothing in LA

what about fox who is ateller, deangelo who had a career year, panarin who had a career year, zib who had a career year, buch who has progressed massively, and now miller who is doing well. Or are we going to pretend that none of that happened to fit your narrative.

again u are complaining about sub 20 year olds who are struggling in the time of a pandemic where nothing is normal.

im far from a person who thinks quinn is a great coach, but your positions here are laughable. Quinn ia not saying sont be creative. He is saying be defensively responsible so we dont have a shooting gallery against our young goalies.

You're choosing to misinterpret my words. I am worried about the lack of offensive improvement for virtually every young prospect so far, some with small sample sizes and some with bigger sample sizes. Lemieux and Gauthier are not 4th line fodder. They are expected to grow too. Fox and DeAngelo are both older and Fox came here as a complete product from the get go, let's not kid outselves here. Panarin Buch and Zib are all developed NHL players. Buch is a success story and that's great. I'm not saying Quinn is saying "don't be creative". The impression I got from Kaapo was that he was frustrated at being told to not try these things because they're not defensively sound and eventually he stopped trying to be creative toward the end of the year. There's a way to teach defensive play without arriving at the point where our #1 offensive prospect stops trying to be creative.

 

[Ruggs225]

You're choosing to misinterpret my words. I am worried about the lack of offensive improvement for virtually every young prospect so far, some with small sample sizes and some with bigger sample sizes. Lemieux and Gauthier are not 4th line fodder. They are expected to grow too. Fox and DeAngelo are both older and Fox came here as a complete product from the get go, let's not kid outselves here. Panarin Buch and Zib are all developed NHL players. Buch is a success story and that's great. I'm not saying Quinn is saying "don't be creative". The impression I got from Kaapo was that he was frustrated at being told to not try these things because they're not defensively sound and eventually he stopped trying to be creative toward the end of the year. There's a way to teach defensive play without arriving at the point where our #1 offensive prospect stops trying to be creative.

if a player is trying to be offensively creative, and that leads to turnovers and goals against than damn straight the coach should tell him to knock out that shit. Kakko was a turnover machine who didnt play a lick of defense last year. He was a major problem.

he had taken huge strides this year. And he is now getting more minutes and finding himself in more scoring situations. Now he and his teammates just need to put the puck on the net. He actually looks real good now.

And yes lemmy and gauthier are both 4th line fodder. Lemmy has stone hands and no offensive vision and goat is a half step better.

And again this covid situation really is screwing with development. Especially in the case of laf.

 

[Tob]

if a player is trying to be offensively creative, and that leads to turnovers and goals against than damn straight the coach should tell him to knock out that shit. Kakko was a turnover machine who didnt play a lick of defense last year. He was a major problem.

he had taken huge strides this year. And he is now getting more minutes and finding himself in more scoring situations. Now he and his teammates just need to put the puck on the net. He actually looks real good now.

And yes lemmy and gauthier are both 4th line fodder. Lemmy has stone hands and no offensive vision and goat is a half step better.

And again this covid situation really is screwing with development. Especially in the case of laf.

okay that's fair. Better defensive play will eventually pay off offensively and I hope it gets there. The body of work, the absymal offensive growth is a concern for me still.

 

[RGY]

We are so desperate to find a better quality center to play with Panarin than Ryan Strome. So desperate. Panarin somehow still has 15 points through 11 games. Would probably be 18-22 points with a more competent center.

I just dont know who that center is at the moment. Maybe its Chytil when he returns. But Panarin needs a better center. He deserves a better center.

 

[Ruggs225]

okay that's fair. Better defensive play will eventually pay off offensively and I hope it gets there. The body of work, the absymal offensive growth is a concern for me still.

do i wish kakko was scoring more. Yes. But i am seeing growth. His last fee games his feet were moving and he was making plays. I think points will start coming. But right now the entire team just seems to not be able to score. And we are getting chances.

the PP on the other hand. Quinn needs to make some major changes on that.

 

[huerter]

Is there anything worse in 2021 than a trade tree?

 

[TheDirtyH]

okay that's fair. Better defensive play will eventually pay off offensively and I hope it gets there. The body of work, the absymal offensive growth is a concern for me still.

This is the point I keep reaching here too. I don't like being lumped into some 'complainer' category. Since I've joined I've always tried to view the management, coaches, and players through a patient, big picture perspective. I've defended AV, Torterella, Gorton, Kakko, Nash, Girardi...

But I'm with you on this one. I'm tired of being told 'stop complaining', 'some people will never be happy', 'look at Fox and Buchnevich'. I'm saying look at our FIRST OVERALL PICK. Look at our SECOND OVERALL PICK.

It's great if they're building a foundation and the points come after. And as a fan, I resent the complaining thing because what the f*** else am I going to do but hope and wait and see. I come here to talk and discuss. And to just deny that this is worth some words is annoying, and frankly does little to convince me of anything but that people can be just as stubborn and horseblindered while typing 'be patient' as they can typing 'hurry up'.

 

[Off Sides]

Ya, i'm not saying they're doomed but reading between the lines, it sound like Quinn is too strict. I could make the other side of that argument as well. In the big picture, perhaps giving the kids more offensive leeway is good for their love of the game and confidence. Several seasons of the same "dont do this don't do that" sounds like a bad thing to me.

I kind of think, with say Barkov the place they are playing does not know exactly how to deal with them, yet also I think there was sort of an over-hype of where they were in their games before being drafted. I'm not in love with what Quinn does, but the expectations or at least the timeline seem to have been set way too optimistically.

 

[Tob]

I bet with Brian Burke and Hextall making rounds of phone calls and getting "welcome back to the league" phone calls, a few trades are gonna fall loose. Dominos.

 

[Cmox]

We have the worst center play and a suspect o-zone game plan.

PP setup still sucks. I'm glad they "practiced"

Get Zibs away from the 1st line and PP1. Hopefully Blackwell is back soon.

Panarin had the game on his stick but Varlomov read him like a Harry Potter book.

Buch had his worst game of the season, hopefully it ends there.

Imagine if you visited your past self and told you this would you believe yourself? Lol

 

[LokiDog]

New thread title: DeAngelo to Calgary? I wouldn’t Bennett on it!


*knee slap*

 

[TominNC]

the offense sucks so we can't complain about it?

The all offense no d Rangers of last year were a hell of a lot more fun to watch. And they were winning more games, too.

They were 5-5-1 and had had a 5 game losing streak. I doubt you were posting about how much fun they were.

 

[TheBloodyNine]

There's a balance but from Kakko's tone and response that he stopped trying to be creative, it sounds to me like he was being suffocated. Lias and Vitali, however much fault lies with the two players and their immaturity, they were both good kids and neither were given enough of the carrot to make their time with the Rangers in camp or otherwise for them to seem happy. Kakko was definitely frustrated. Alexis has played 11 games in the NHL and has 0 points in a non sudden death format. Gauthier has played like 200 minutes and doesn't have a goal and only 2 assists. Lemieux hasn't taken a step offensively or shown flashes even in the 2+ calendar years that he's been a Ranger. Howden has been blah since day 1 with no improvements offensively in his 3rd season now. Fil looked great this year and I'm being disingenuous here but as far as I can tell, since 2017-2018 to now, he's had a career high 23 points with some but still speculative progress on paper. All of these number as a whole for all of our young players shuffled together plus the way Vitali left and the Lias AWOL paints a very revealing picture for me

The common denominator of all the players you mentioned? None played in college. That's Quinn's only area of success. He knows how to coach kids who went to college. He's completely baffled by kids who didn't.

The fact that we drafted two can't miss prospects two years in a row and two years in a row both of them struggle is troubling and it's gone from it's one player to now its a trend. I get being patient but let's not all act like these two guys were mid-first rounders. They were two guys who were touted to immediately make an impact at the NHL. Laf is a year older than most first overall picks. At some point the fact that they are not hitting the score sheet with regularity must be addressed, and that starts with coaching.

 

[Ruggs225]

The common denominator of all the players you mentioned? None played in college. That's Quinn's only area of success. He knows how to coach kids who went to college. He's completely baffled by kids who didn't.
.

This is the most ridiculous statement ever.

Quin was a college coach. He coached players who were freshman.

In case u are not familiar with the collegiate system, freshman are fist year players that by definition have never played in college before.

he literally has coached many players who have never played college hockey before he ever set foot as a Rangers coach.

 

[Fitzy]

We are so desperate to find a better quality center to play with Panarin than Ryan Strome. So desperate. Panarin somehow still has 15 points through 11 games. Would probably be 18-22 points with a more competent center.

I just dont know who that center is at the moment. Maybe its Chytil when he returns. But Panarin needs a better center. He deserves a better center.

Goodness. A lot of heavy assumptions here. Panarin has been his most productive ever in his career since coming here. A lot of that time has been playing with Strome. So forgive me for being skeptical that it’s somehow Stromes fault for Panarin not instantly doubling his typical point production here.

A better center isn’t necessarily a compatible center. There’s a reason why Jagr didn’t work well with either Gomez or Drury, but he did with rookie Brandon Dubinsky.

I remember similar suggestions that Jagr would somehow get better playing with a better center than Nylander. Look how that turned out. Like it or not, there’s chemistry

 

[TheBloodyNine]

This is the most ridiculous statement ever.

Quin was a college coach. He coached players who were freshman.

In case u are not familiar with the collegiate system, freshman are fist year players that by definition have never played in college before.

he literally has coached many players who have never played college hockey before he ever set foot as a Rangers coach.

Yeah except I'm talking about players on the Rangers and not college freshman. Players on the Rangers are not college freshman. On top of the fact that college is a way different league than Euro/Juniors, and especially the NHL.

Just because he coached a couple of kids out of HS doesn't excuse him for the inability to coach kids who have come here from routes other than college.

 

[RGY]

Goodness. A lot of heavy assumptions here. Panarin has been his most productive ever in his career since coming here. A lot of that time has been playing with Strome. So forgive me for being skeptical that it’s somehow Stromes fault for Panarin not instantly doubling his typical point production here.

A better center isn’t necessarily a compatible center. There’s a reason why Jagr didn’t work well with either Gomez or Drury, but he did with rookie Brandon Dubinsky.

I remember similar suggestions that Jagr would somehow get better playing with a better center than Nylander. Look how that turned out. Like it or not, there’s chemistry

Goodness....a lot of ignorance here.

I guess we are going to force that card down people’s throats...the one where we must saddle Panarin with Strome because he has had some of his best seasons with him on his line. Lets not look at it as the other way around. And lets continue to lean on that as Strome CONTINUES to be abysmal in every area and corner of the ice. There is nothing heavy about the above accusations. He has been a turnover machine. So many plays have died on his stick, at both ends of the ice. So many whiffs. So much carelessness. He is such a passive, nothing player.

Man, I wish he had some Dubinsky in him — at least then he would be more engaged every shift. Dubinsky was able to go to the dirty areas and win puck battles. He actually looked like he had a pulse out there. Dubisnky played hard on both sides of the puck. He fought for every inch. When Panarin isnt able to drag Strome’s lifeless body around the ice, the guy is straight up a cone. He doesnt drive possession. He doesnt drive the play. He is irresponsible at both ends of the ice. He belongs on the 3rd line.

I will drop this image all day long...

He’s lucky he hasn’t been away from Panarin this year because his play has warranted 3rd/4th line minutes.

 

[Ruggs225]

Yeah except I'm talking about players on the Rangers and not college freshman. Players on the Rangers are not college freshman. On top of the fact that college is a way different league than Euro/Juniors, and especially the NHL.

Just because he coached a couple of kids out of HS doesn't excuse him for the inability to coach kids who have come here from routes other than college.

i think the fact that they are 18 and 19 yrs old has a lot more to do with it than if they played college.

Not alot of 18 and 19 yr olds light the nhl up. And again kakko still has basically the same amount of points compared to hughes and dach in his draft class. Nobody has done much of note after where kravy was drafted and laf is 18, had a short camp, no hockey for 10 months, limited hands on coach interaction and no exhibition games. Hardly normal circumstances.

oh and we are playing in the hardest division against some of the best defensive teams. Which again doesnt make life easy for the kids.

and this is from someone who probably thinks quinn should probably get canned at the end of the year.

kakko is playing better with each game. Laf just needs to adjust to the nhl.