Speculation: Roster Building Thread Part III: Day by Day

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Gelinas makes no sense. He'd easily be #11-12 on the depth chart (behind McD-Shatty, Skeji-Smith, Staal/Berglazov/Deangelo/Pionk/Graves/Zbo)

He's Pirri 2.0: Guy with a big shot who doesn't score much and can't play defense (see what I did there :laugh:)
 
Maybe Gelinas will be in Hartford although they have a glut of LHD

Maybe Graves is getting moved? I wouldn't be opposed to moving him for the right piece
 
Becoming? He has never been a decent hockey player.

Weird that he "always" gets good on ice results if he's never even been a decent hockey player, very weird...

Or maybe he's good but looks bad because he's slow and soft? Perception isn't always reality.
 
All 3?
The Classic Bozak (1M retained by TML) for Nick Holden and a 2nd.
Plus My favourite E Kane for E Staal, Ryan Graves and a 3rd in 2020
Sign Gelinas
Fits capwise

E. Staal?

We need to trade for Reinhart as well, if we are going after E Kane
 
Rebuilds on the fly aren't easy; I'd rather just blow the bleeping thing up, but I know that won't happen. Getitng the extra 1st this year is a good start; hopefully Andersson and Chytl pan out; wait and see. Would like to add a couple more first rounders in the next year or two. With the next 2 NHL Drafts supposedly being very good, that won't be easy. Catch a team in a go for it or bust situation, i.e. desperate to make the playoffs/make a long Cup run. Still move Nash at the deadline if team doesn't look like its long for a playoff run. Losing Klein as an asset stings a little.

Yeah I agree in principle for sure, but I don't think you can blow it apart right now, we just aren't there yet. How would that work?

But a few things, the maturity period from when you get a kid to when he starts to pay off is much shorter right now than it ever has been before. Marner drafted in 15' and Nylander drafted in 14' was very important for TML last season, starting 1 and 2 years respectively after getting drafted, just for example. Zaitsev came right out of Russia for them last season.

The systematic changes are rarely talked about in the game, but just the last couple of years there has been a very big change to how the game is played in the NHL. Teams that really overload of the rush has just benefited a lot more from it than what they give up in terms of counter attacks against and lost possession. I watched NHL games from early 90's until say 2015 or 2016 and saw maybe say both Ds join the rush about 20-25 times. Once per year? Last season we easily saw it 100 times from our team alone. To different degrees, many other teams are doing the same.

Quenneville commented on it last season:
"Our possession zone time has been way more effective and more dangerous with chances made off the rush. We've been trying to find that part of our game, whether it's the defensemen incorporating into the rush, jumping off points."

In short, its real simple. The forwards do just not dump the puck into the corners, put pressure on it, slow the other team down, nail them in their own end and send rubber on the net like LAK, Boston, Anaheim and the likes did for so long with great success. Instead they challenge the Ds, skate into them trying to beat them one on one. A D, sometimes even two, joins the rush, when the D engages the forward he has plenty of relief options to move the puck to. The defensemen that basically has to step up and hit someone is taken out of the play along with the forward, but with a total of 4 or even 5 players attacking, you so often lose someone and you get those great scoring chances. You get a higher shooting percentage.

Whenever there is a fundamental change to the game like this -- younger players benefit from it. They are creating their game as we speak, and its of course created to fit what works today, not yesterday. We saw the same things in the early 90's when Euros came into the league, in the later 90's when the trap emerged, after the 05' lockout when the redline offside was removed, and now again with teams completely throwing out rules like "never stick handle on the offensive blueline" and "both Ds cannot join the rush" thing, not to mention "always having three man back" stuff.

So when you get younger players into the roster today, you get forwards for whom it is perfectly natural to skate up to the blueline and then try to deke the D, and when the Ds engage and if they can't beat them, these guys are great at quickly just moving the puck to a supporting teammate with speed. In these situation, even a skilled vet like Zucc for example will chip it past the D and go into the corner more often, that is what he has been thought. You get Ds who are really good at joining the rush with speed, quickly moving the puck up to the forwards and so forth.

I firmly think we ran into a wall with the former group we had. Changes just needed to be made. There were no quick-fix option. No way we just could have added like Shatty and be right back at it getting out of the East and winning a final with the exact same crew up front, they were just not dangerous enough offensively led by Stepan. So doing nothing wasn't an option. Is it an option to take a step back to take two forward? The odds for succeeding is of course never high in this league with any option, but it doesn't have to be 5-10 years between taking a step back and taking two forward in the game today. We shouldn't overrate how fast Lias Andersson and Chytl and DeAngelo and co can come in and make an impact, but I would definitely not rule out that it could happen in during the timeframe 2018-2020.

In this perspective I don't think the proper question is, will it be enough? Because there is never any option where you can say that it will be enough, that you will win a cup. But it could be, and in a 31 team cap league that is what you have to satisfy for.
 
Weird that he "always" gets good on ice results if he's never even been a decent hockey player, very weird...

Or maybe he's good but looks bad because he's slow and soft? Perception isn't always reality.

What is "good on ice results"? Has he ever been on a team that has won a play-off series in the NHL? Has he ever been a plus player? He has played on some below avg teams, but why does his coaches never use him a lot? Most season he gets around 15-16 minutes of ice time, or 18 minutes for a team like Buffalo with huge issues.

Not a single team offered Cody Franson a NHL contract in 2012. He had already played 140 games but nobody wanted him. He has not been qualified numerous of times and has often had to wait until september to be resigned. His last contracts has been 2, 1, 1, 1 and 2 years as a UFA. Teams are desperate for RDs, I mean really desperate, here is a guy in his prime who you can get for 2-3m per, nobody is willing to even go THREE YEARS for him?

So its a fact that his coaches do not trust him one bit. His teams never wants to keep him. He has been a minus player most of his entire career. His teams never does well. I also think that his relative corsi sometimes has been bumped by him getting the few good shifts on some worthless teams where players around him has been terrible. In the end, lol, I kind of agree with you. He is maybe not as completely worthless as his career indicates. He is strong along the boards and good at stepping up at the blueline. He can't skate, has worthless gap control and can't pass the puck, which makes coaches not trust him and GMs shying away from him. But he has definitely never been a "good" NHLer, that was my point. He has always had huge issues in his game that also hurts his team a lot.

So perception of rel.corsi or whatever doesn't always equals reality either. Or he is another one of those long line of examples where every single team in the league -- all 30-31 of them desperate of a player in his position -- just completely fails to see what you guys can spot by just making a search at war-on-ice. Or?
 
Yeah I agree in principle for sure, but I don't think you can blow it apart right now, we just aren't there yet. How would that work?

But a few things, the maturity period from when you get a kid to when he starts to pay off is much shorter right now than it ever has been before. Marner drafted in 15' and Nylander drafted in 14' was very important for TML last season, starting 1 and 2 years respectively after getting drafted, just for example. Zaitsev came right out of Russia for them last season.

The systematic changes are rarely talked about in the game, but just the last couple of years there has been a very big change to how the game is played in the NHL. Teams that really overload of the rush has just benefited a lot more from it than what they give up in terms of counter attacks against and lost possession. I watched NHL games from early 90's until say 2015 or 2016 and saw maybe say both Ds join the rush about 20-25 times. Once per year? Last season we easily saw it 100 times from our team alone. To different degrees, many other teams are doing the same.

Quenneville commented on it last season:


In short, its real simple. The forwards do just not dump the puck into the corners, put pressure on it, slow the other team down, nail them in their own end and send rubber on the net like LAK, Boston, Anaheim and the likes did for so long with great success. Instead they challenge the Ds, skate into them trying to beat them one on one. A D, sometimes even two, joins the rush, when the D engages the forward he has plenty of relief options to move the puck to. The defensemen that basically has to step up and hit someone is taken out of the play along with the forward, but with a total of 4 or even 5 players attacking, you so often lose someone and you get those great scoring chances. You get a higher shooting percentage.

Whenever there is a fundamental change to the game like this -- younger players benefit from it. They are creating their game as we speak, and its of course created to fit what works today, not yesterday. We saw the same things in the early 90's when Euros came into the league, in the later 90's when the trap emerged, after the 05' lockout when the redline offside was removed, and now again with teams completely throwing out rules like "never stick handle on the offensive blueline" and "both Ds cannot join the rush" thing, not to mention "always having three man back" stuff.

So when you get younger players into the roster today, you get forwards for whom it is perfectly natural to skate up to the blueline and then try to deke the D, and when the Ds engage and if they can't beat them, these guys are great at quickly just moving the puck to a supporting teammate with speed. In these situation, even a skilled vet like Zucc for example will chip it past the D and go into the corner more often, that is what he has been thought. You get Ds who are really good at joining the rush with speed, quickly moving the puck up to the forwards and so forth.

I firmly think we ran into a wall with the former group we had. Changes just needed to be made. There were no quick-fix option. No way we just could have added like Shatty and be right back at it getting out of the East and winning a final with the exact same crew up front, they were just not dangerous enough offensively led by Stepan. So doing nothing wasn't an option. Is it an option to take a step back to take two forward? The odds for succeeding is of course never high in this league with any option, but it doesn't have to be 5-10 years between taking a step back and taking two forward in the game today. We shouldn't overrate how fast Lias Andersson and Chytl and DeAngelo and co can come in and make an impact, but I would definitely not rule out that it could happen in during the timeframe 2018-2020.

In this perspective I don't think the proper question is, will it be enough? Because there is never any option where you can say that it will be enough, that you will win a cup. But it could be, and in a 31 team cap league that is what you have to satisfy for.

I'm with you that a "rebuild" doesn't have to take 5-10 years, especially if the right players are added (developed properly and fit the style of play in today's NHL). When was the last time they had a "generational" player? They are never in a position to get one, other than to trade for/sign as a UFA after their better years are behind them. They've never had the 1st overall pick.

I still see this team as a borderline playoff team (7th-10th in the East), maybe win a round if HL stands on his head. See where they are come the trade deadline. Still don't think they have enough assets to acquire a top line player if they are doing better than expected; still not trading early picks for vets. The farm system is still a little bare, not completely bereft, but no high end forwards in the pipeline. Maybe Andersson becomes that; as of now we don't know; he could be, or he could be Nicklas Sundstrom (useful player as a 3rd liner but never a top line forward). Still need more than 1.
 
Gelinas is surely a AHL move, and not a reason to believe Staal/Holden are on their way out. I'm pretty sure Holden is on his way out anyway, and the Gelinas move has no bearing on that.
 
Gelinas is surely a AHL move, and not a reason to believe Staal/Holden are on their way out. I'm pretty sure Holden is on his way out anyway, and the Gelinas move has no bearing on that.

Gelinas would be cheap depth, totally fine with that. He has been on two dumpster fire teams in Colorado and NJ. it would allow for AV to possibly carry 8D as well if he signs for a very small amount. Keep Kampfer and Gelinas as a the #7/8 and he can roll 4D pairs in practice.
 
Am I the only one that thinks DeAngelo doesn't crack the opening night roster? I really have my doubts that he and AV are going to mesh well enough that AV 'trusts' him defensively...

McDonagh - Shattenkirk
Skjei - Smith
Staal - Bereglazov
Holden - DeAngelo

^ Not saying this is what I want, but this is what I see happening.
 
Am I the only one that thinks DeAngelo doesn't crack the opening night roster? I really have my doubts that he and AV are going to mesh well enough that AV 'trusts' him defensively...

McDonagh - Shattenkirk
Skjei - Smith
Staal - Bereglazov
Holden - DeAngelo

^ Not saying this is what I want, but this is what I see happening.

I agree, but we are holding out hope one of Staal / Holden go for a C option
 
How are the Rangers replacing Stepan?

cut.jpg
 
Am I the only one that thinks DeAngelo doesn't crack the opening night roster? I really have my doubts that he and AV are going to mesh well enough that AV 'trusts' him defensively...

McDonagh - Shattenkirk
Skjei - Smith
Staal - Bereglazov
Holden - DeAngelo

^ Not saying this is what I want, but this is what I see happening.

I don't care if that is the opening night D pairings or not. It is so much better than what we had last year.
 
Am I the only one that thinks DeAngelo doesn't crack the opening night roster? I really have my doubts that he and AV are going to mesh well enough that AV 'trusts' him defensively...

McDonagh - Shattenkirk
Skjei - Smith
Staal - Bereglazov
Holden - DeAngelo

^ Not saying this is what I want, but this is what I see happening.

I'm envisioning that to start the season as well.
 
The Rangers have a huge hole in the middle. Andersson and Chytil should help fill that hole in the future. You can make the argument for the Rangers being a better team with both of those players than Stepan down the road. How is Gorton replacing Stepan this season? Andersson could end up making the team but you can't expect him to replace Stepan's production in 17-18. The Rangers management staff likes Miller in the middle. AV is not thrilled with that idea. If you go back and look at the 2011 draft stuff,the Rangers like Miller's game at center. Gorton and Clark. They drafted him in 2011. Putting Miller in the middle is the best option. It doesn't cost the Rangers any assets for a center. It's almost impossible to acquire a top center. It's not like Miller hasn't played a game at center.
 
This team needs a real #1 center. Any chance at all at Tavares next year? lol
 
The Rangers have a huge hole in the middle. Andersson and Chytil should help fill that hole in the future. You can make the argument for the Rangers being a better team with both of those players than Stepan down the road. How is Gorton replacing Stepan this season? Andersson could end up making the team but you can't expect him to replace Stepan's production in 17-18. The Rangers management staff likes Miller in the middle. AV is not thrilled with that idea. If you go back and look at the 2011 draft stuff,the Rangers like Miller's game at center. Gorton and Clark. They drafted him in 2011. Putting Miller in the middle is the best option. It doesn't cost the Rangers any assets for a center. It's almost impossible to acquire a top center. It's not like Miller hasn't played a game at center.

You don't need LA to replace Stepan.

You need Zib to replace Stepan.
Hayes to replace Zib.
LA to replace Hayes.
DD to replace Lindberg.

I have my doubts all four of these things will happen. Some will. Others won't.

You don't replace Stepan. You re-create him in the aggregate. If you trust that Zib can be that '1C' (I do), and that Hayes can be that '2C' (I have my doubts), then really all you need to do to replace Stepan is grab a '3C'.

 
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Gelinas couldn't even hold a spot on the Avalanche last year--the worst team in the league. He spent half the season in San Antonio where he managed to be a -22 in only 27 games. Pro rate that out into a full season and he'd been over a -60. He's a crappy defender. He's got a big shot but his offensive production is very underwhelming. 27 games for the Avalanche last year--one assist--that's all. He's not a good skater. He's not as good as Kampfer and not even as good as Staal. I know we wouldn't have to pay much to get him but why get him at all?
 
You don't need LA to replace Stepan.

You need Zib to replace Stepan.
Hayes to replace Zib.
LA to replace Hayes.
DD to replace Lindberg.

I have my doubts all four of these things will happen. Some will. Others won't.

You don't replace Stepan. You re-create him in the aggregate



Exactly. I'm confident in Mika being able to handle the increased role. It's Hayes and then the holes that follow him that worry me. Relying on LA is not feasible at the moment until he shows us otherwise. DD isn't that good IMO. Nieves has concussion issues, but hopefully will be healthy and can compete for 4C.

Does Miller move to C? Do you trade someone like Zucc for a C? This is why I wanted to trade Hayes and let Mika/Step flip between 1C and 2C in the upcoming years.
 
No clear #1 center in 2014. Were some bad bounces and misfortunes away from having a commanding lead in the SCF. They were in every game.

But i mean sure theres just simply no way they can win...

We had Richards. People rag on him but he was a no. 1 center. It wasn't until he 2015 playoffs that he was truly in crash-and-burn-mode.

Better example was Christensen, That's when our 010-15 legitimate contention window began. We're a guy who can just manage about 35-40 pts. in a top-six C role away from contending right now.
 
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