Speculation: Roster Building Thread LXXXI - All along the Watch Tower

[Edge]

Seriously, you want to attribute the play of Fox or Miller to Quinn? Isn’t that exactly like blaming him for, for example, Lias not looking like a top line center?

I think he deserves at least some credit for helping them along.

I mean, if we're going to blame him for guys performing shitty, isn't it a two-way street?

You tell me, how does Miller look compared to last year?

How does Fox look compared to how he was projected?

 

[Edge]

Agreed with the above.

My issues with DQ are preparation and game management.

Starts to games, I'm looking at both DQ and the teams leadership. Effort throughout? Teams elder statesmen are to be focused on here.

There is alot to like about what DQ has done with the youth of the team by and large, but the leeway he has given to a CK that was not given to a Buch or an ADA is not something I'm a fan of

I think this is a very fair assessment.

 

[True Blue]

Seriously, you want to attribute the play of Fox or Miller to Quinn?

Ok. Who would you like to attribute it to? Donato and Granato?

 

[Edge]

Ok. Who would you like to attribute it to? Donato and Granato?

Ah yes, the tire fire that we HAD to get them away from.

Remember, it was them who were ruining Miller (somebody is always ruining somebody, but never helping them apparently.)

 

[True Blue]

Ah yes, the tire fire that we HAD to get them away from.

Remember, it was them who were ruining Miller (somebody is always ruining somebody, but never helping them apparently.)

The more I read on here, the less I understand.

I mean the view that Fox became a fully developed, trending towards elite player under Donato in Harvard and Miller into a legit top-4 option at the age of 20 under the watchful eye of Granato is just amazing to read. Just when you think that people's agendas could possibly not be serviced any more. To quote the former president "Fake Facts".

 

[The New Russian Five]

Ah yes, the tire fire that we HAD to get them away from.

Remember, it was them who were ruining Miller (somebody is always ruining somebody, but never helping them apparently.)

As a former teacher I can tell you, when I had students doing better than expected you would hear hardly a whisper about it, but when I had a student who was not meeting expectations you start hearing it from all corners.

 

[Edge]

The more I read on here, the less I understand.

I mean the view that Fox became a fully developed, trending towards elite player under Donato in Harvard and Miller into a legit top-4 option at the age of 20 under the watchful eye of Granato is just amazing to read. Just when you think that people's agendas could possibly not be serviced any more. To quote the former president "Fake Facts".

I think we can critique Quinn on a variety of issues with different results and opinions. I think @pld459666 more or less captured this in his post. Heck, even Uncle Larry did this in a recent article.

It doesn't have to be all or nothing, black or white.

It can be shades of gray, or good in the bad/bad in the good, yin and yang.

There are things Quinn can and should be questioned on. He's not above reproach and some of his decisions are very easy to disagree with.

But I can't say the handling of youth has been bad. In fact, I think we see the players responding to it. Even Gauthier --- you can clearly "see" that he is applying what he's been instructed to do.

 

[Edge]

As a former teacher I can tell you, when I had students doing better than expected you would hear hardly a whisper about it, but when I had a student who was not meeting expectations you start hearing it from all corners.

My wife is a teacher, and so are two of my sisters. Believe me, I hear you.

 

[Fitzy]

This organization has had more success developing it's defensive prospects and goalies than it's forwards for literally the past 30 years. This isn't a new conundrum specific to Quinn.

Even our best developed forwards topped out as 2A players. Let's hope that doesnt continue with Kakko and Laf.

 

[Edge]

This organization has had more success developing it's defensive prospects and goalies than it's forwards for literally the past 30 years. This isn't a new conundrum specific to Quinn.

Even our best developed forwards topped out as 2A players. Let's hope that doesnt continue with Kakko and Laf.

I think if Kakko and Laf top out as 2A players, the Rangers fully deserve the questions and criticism they would get. That would be more than fair.

 

[Glen Sathers Cigar]

How attractive is the NYR 1st looking right about now.

Top three protection and its still very attractive

I would trade it unprotected in a package for Eichel.

 

[RGY]

Doesn’t Jacques Martin get the credit for Miller?

Doesn’t the team structure, specifically towards defense, significantly improving gets credited to Martin? The first 2 years DQ was here, his teams were allergic to defense, allergic to clogging the neutral zone, stepping up on forwards, in-zone stability and coverage assignments. It was mayhem. All of the sudden it does a 180 and it looks night and day different. What has changed? Jacques Martin.

Sorry I just dont give Quinn much credit. I cant. Yea Buchnevich. Even Zibanejad. But Fox looks to just have it. Other than not playing him, I dont know how Quinn could mess that up. I dont blame Quinn for Kakko’s play last year, I think that was just the game being too fast for an 18 year old kid. I also dont give DQ credit for it starting to click for Kakko and he being more assertive with his play. Lafreniere disappears on the bench at times. Gauthier hardly plays and this team has been starving for offense.

I am done with Quinn. Soured on him. The team looks to have soured on him as well. They are lifeless. They look as confused as he does in his post game pressers.

 

[Edge]

Doesn’t Jacques Martin get the credit for Miller?

Doesn’t the team structure, specifically towards defense, significantly improving gets credit to Martin? The first 2 years DQ was here, his teams were allergic to defense, allergic to clogging the neutral zone, stepping up on forwards, in-zone stability and coverage assignments. It was mayhem. All of the sudden it does a 180 and it looks night and day different. What has changed? Jacques Martin.

Sorry I just dont give Quinn much credit. I cant. Yea Buchnevich. Even Zibanejad. But Fox looks to just have it. Other than not playing him, I dont know how Quinn could mess that up. I dont blame Quinn for Kakko’s play last year, I think that was just the game being too fast for an 18 year old kid. I also dont give DQ credit for it starting to click for Kakko and he being more assertive with his play. Lafreniere disappears on the bench at times. Gauthier hardly plays and this team has been starving for offense.

I am done with Quinn. Soured on him. The team looks to have soured on him as well. They are lifeless. They look as confused as he does in his post game pressers.

Yes, Martin gets credit too.

But Lindgren, Fox and ADA all preceded him. (And apparently Ruff was ruining them rather than helping them, after Hartford apparently ruined two of them).

Martin would also have nothing to do with Chytil and Kakko's continued growth.

My issue isn't total agreement with Quinn. It's dealing in absolutes.

Because some are "done" with Quinn, it becomes a pile-on mentality where everything just starts getting thrown onto the fire, even if it really doesn't belong there.

Again, it's not all pitchforks or pina coladas.

 

[TheBloodyNine]

I think he deserves at least some credit for helping them along.

I mean, if we're going to blame him for guys performing shitty, isn't it a two-way street?

You tell me, how does Miller look compared to last year?

How does Fox look compared to how he was projected?

I will absolutely give him all the credit in the world for the college guys. Unfortunately the two best prospects this team has ever had aren’t college guys and that worries me. It worries me that two years in a row a can’t miss no doubter prospect is struggling to get on the scoresheet.

 

[True Blue]

I think we can critique Quinn on a variety of issues with different results and opinions. I think @pld459666 more or less captured this in his post. Heck, even Uncle Larry did this in a recent article.

It doesn't have to be all or nothing, black or white.

It can be shades of gray, or good in the bad/bad in the good, yin and yang.

There are things Quinn can and should be questioned on. He's not above reproach and some of his decisions are very easy to disagree with.

But I can't say the handling of youth has been bad. In fact, I think we see the players responding to it. Even Gauthier --- you can clearly "see" that he is applying what he's been instructed to do.

This is exactly right. I made this point in the Quinn thread. If you want to be honest and start assigning blame, if you are honest with yourself the problems that this team is having due to 1/3 Quinn (see PLD's post), 1/3 incredibly crappy play from the players that are supposed to be the veteran leadership of this team & 1/3 of the entire team not being able to put a goal into an ocean without Godzilla rearing up and swallowing the puck or a hurricane wind reversing it's angle.

But in ALL of this, to be so willfully blind that you now start attributing teenagers development either to their college coaches or simply just working on their game in their free time is utterly asinine.

 

[gravey9]

I think Georgiev's observations were correct. I think opposing teams expect us to force the pass, or make one pass too many. They anticipate it. And, as we've seen, they pounce on it.

I think there are player types that we are still missing. I think we could use a slot shooter, someone who gets into the high priced real estate. I think we need more North-South types on the roster, to balance out the East-West types. I do think we need someone doesn't necessarily have to carry the puck through the zone, but is focused on getting his shot off. I think we need more of the swarming, pesky personality that we were starting to develop a few years back. I think we've shown a bit more of that of late.

Honestly, what we need is our top forwards to take the puck off the walls and drive to the slot with it. It feels like 95% of the time we recover the puck along the walls, it goes back to the point (which is a decent play) or they stay along the walls and try to pass the puck through several defenders. Teams are playing the pass not merely because we don't shoot, but because the top end players are not pushing the issue. They're not driving to the paint enough. They're not getting inside enough.

Finally, the current group of forwards are fine enough skaters. All average to above average. But with our new buttoned down D structure, we don't possess the kind of speed that regularly softens and stretches opposing D structure without forwards flying the zone. (breaking said D structure)

As a result, what's required of the forwards is to outwork opponents in the O zone, pick pucks off walls and carry it to the net. But currently when we do possess the puck in the O zone our forwards aren't showing the fortitude or ability to get inside enough. And what the fans see is a team that doesn't seem to "want it enough." And are playing "uninspired." But to me it's about what they're being taught to do once they gain possession in the offensive zone. That's the part that's not working well enough. How do you create chaos in the O zone when the other team has all 5 guys back?

The other thing I wonder about is, the new D zone system generally has one winger coming way down the boards for a 4ft pass outlet pass (from the D). While this has generally been great for getting out of the zone, it's neutered their ability to stretch other teams D structure. There are far less opportunities/goals off of rushes this season. I wonder if this system is in place in part because our limited center and D depth. The system is masking our roster defencies but in turn it's making our offense anemic compared to last season. It's a choice that may need to be re-examined soon if we simple cannot score consistently.

Lastly, I'll just say this -- it's quite possible that the team's construction this year both in terms of types of players and youth are not just able to consistently play with the physicality required of a style where they're focused on staying on the right side of the puck.

Next year, as Nils, Tarmo and Braden begin joining the team -- the D depth will change. And that should help a bunch. But we will still have to address the lack of C depth -- even if we draft a C in the top 10 of draft.

 

[Larrybiv]

I think Georgiev's observations were correct. I think opposing teams expect us to force the pass, or make one pass too many. They anticipate it. And, as we've seen, they pounce on it.

I think there are player types that we are still missing. I think we could use a slot shooter, someone who gets into the high priced real estate. I think we need more North-South types on the roster, to balance out the East-West types. I do think we need someone doesn't necessarily have to carry the puck through the zone, but is focused on getting his shot off. I think we need more of the swarming, pesky personality that we were starting to develop a few years back. I think we've shown a bit more of that of late.

How about much more of this. Keeping it simple. Losing Trouba might NOT be the worst thing for PP2. Get it TO the net, then barrage it. Just look how simple but effective this was.....and THAT was at the end of the game. Wow.

 

[Edge]

I will absolutely give him all the credit in the world for the college guys. Unfortunately the two best prospects this team has ever had aren’t college guys and that worries me. It worries me that two years in a row a can’t miss no doubter prospect is struggling to get on the scoresheet.

I hear ya. I do tend to think that what Kakko is going will result in production. I mean the kid is starting to look like a legit star out there.

I'd also be concerned if they were alone in their struggles. The fact that the top three picks from the last two drafts have either not set the world on fire, or not played in the NHL, is somewhat telling about a broader shift that might be taking place.

 

[Edge]

This is exactly right. I made this point in the Quinn thread. If you want to be honest and start assigning blame, if you are honest with yourself the problems that this team is having due to 1/3 Quinn (see PLD's post), 1/3 incredibly crappy play from the players that are supposed to be the veteran leadership of this team & 1/3 of the entire team not being able to put a goal into an ocean without Godzilla rearing up and swallowing the puck or a hurricane wind reversing it's angle.

But in ALL of this, to be so willfully blind that you now start attributing teenagers development either to their college coaches or simply just working on their game in their free time is utterly asinine.

I used the 1/3 and percentage approach as well the other night.

I think the challenges extend beyond Quinn at this point.

They don't exclude him by any means, but they don't necessarily begin and end with him either.

 

[TheBloodyNine]

I hear ya. I do tend to think that what Kakko is going will result in production. I mean the kid is starting to look like a legit star out there.

I'd also be concerned if they were alone in their struggles. The fact that the top three picks from the last two drafts have either not set the world on fire, or not played in the NHL, is somewhat telling about a broader shift that might be taking place.

Kakko absolutely looks like a different player. I don't know why more shots aren't going in the net for him.

 

[Avery16]

Doesn’t Jacques Martin get the credit for Miller?

Doesn’t the team structure, specifically towards defense, significantly improving gets credited to Martin? The first 2 years DQ was here, his teams were allergic to defense, allergic to clogging the neutral zone, stepping up on forwards, in-zone stability and coverage assignments. It was mayhem. All of the sudden it does a 180 and it looks night and day different. What has changed? Jacques Martin.

Sorry I just dont give Quinn much credit. I cant. Yea Buchnevich. Even Zibanejad. But Fox looks to just have it. Other than not playing him, I dont know how Quinn could mess that up. I dont blame Quinn for Kakko’s play last year, I think that was just the game being too fast for an 18 year old kid. I also dont give DQ credit for it starting to click for Kakko and he being more assertive with his play. Lafreniere disappears on the bench at times. Gauthier hardly plays and this team has been starving for offense.

I am done with Quinn. Soured on him. The team looks to have soured on him as well. They are lifeless. They look as confused as he does in his post game pressers.

I'm giving Miller the credit for Miller.

 

[LokiDog]

I think he deserves at least some credit for helping them along.
I mean, if we're going to blame him for guys performing shitty, isn't it a two-way street?
You tell me, how does Miller look compared to last year?
How does Fox look compared to how he was projected?

I think the problem with this is that Miller looks better than last year in college, but has looked pretty good right from the get go, so had literally just a couple of weeks interaction with Quinn in his life. Ditto Fox last year. Guys like Chytil, who may well have turned a corner before his injury or may have just had a couple of good games, have had years with Quinn and shown a little, but nothing that points to an extraordinary development focused skillset. Same with Kakko, he does look a lot more engaged this year but part of that can simply be being a sophomore and growing, yet despite everyone being pretty happy with the play, there’s zero production.

There’s not a ton of evidence of guys who came to Quinn in one state and took major steps over a length of time under him. There are guys who stepped in as rookies and flourished from virtually day one under Quinn (Fox, Lindgren, Miller, Shesterkin) and guys who stepped in as rookies and struggled pretty mightily under Quinn (Chytil, Kakko, Laf, Howden, Lias). We haven’t seen any of the second group really take tangible strides forward. I’m not denying that Chytil looked great for 3 games before getting hurt or that Kakko is looking better, but it hasn’t translated to meaningful progress or production for any of that second group. Quinn’s only “development” successes seem to be guys who showed up “ready”.

I know each draft is different and every player develops at different paces, but Svechnikov had 61 in 68 games last year (74 point pace) as a 19 year old sophomore. Kakko is 20 and is on pace for 19 points over 82 games. Lafreniere is on pace for 5.

Over the last 15 years:

Every first overall combined, stopping just before Crosby and Ovie to not skew the numbers with 100 point seasons, all positions included, has scored 671 points in 941 games. That includes defenseman, disappointments like Yakupov and Hughes, etc. That still comes out to an average pace of 58 points over 82 games.

Every second overal combined, same parameters, combined for 454 points, including guys like Reinhart who had 1 point and got sent down, in 974 games. That’s a 38 point pace.

It is concerning that our #1 and #2 overall are significantly failing not just high expectations based on guys like Matthews or Eichel, but the average across 15 years, including defenseman like Ryan Murray and Erik Johnson and disappointments like Hughes, Patrick and Yakupov.

 

[IDvsEGO]

Kakko absolutely looks like a different player. I don't know why more shots aren't going in the net for him.

Kakko is taking a lot of long distance almost buzzer beater type shots, he’s had a couple bad deflections in the slot, but hasn’t had a ton of clean looks. He needs another half second of separation to get clean looks and he’ll go on a scoring tear.

 

[Fitzy]

I think if Kakko and Laf top out as 2A players, the Rangers fully deserve the questions and criticism they would get. That would be more than fair.

Mostly because we haven't had a lot of top ten picks.

Kreider, Callahan, Dubinsky, Anisimov, Stepan, Zuccarello, York are/were all good players but none of them hit all-star level. We've had to go outside the organization to get start forwards all the time.

With Laf and Kakko, at least one of them needs to become a star in order for this team to keep competing as Panarin starts to age and regress a little bit. By the time Panarin is 33-34, I suspect he will still be scoring near a PPG, but he should be in a complementary role by that point.

30-50-80 for Lafreniere and 35-35-70 for Kakko are what I'd like to see ultimately, and I think they have the talent to hit those numbers consistently.

 

[Ruggs225]

My big issue with quinn is that he is too lenient with the vets.

also we need some real leadership from the players. We arent getting that.