Speculation: Roster Building Thread LXXXI - All along the Watch Tower

[True Blue]

I agree especially with Fox and Miller stepping in right away and thriving. Miller got out of a bad system and was put in a position to succeed. Great. That's not a knock on our staff or evidence of development.

So Miller just developed himself? You can honestly say that with a straight face? A 20 year old kid who has not even played defense his entire career does not look at all amazing at defending while in college, just simply developed himself by skating in a backyard with Lafreniere? This sounds logical to you?

 

[Overcast]

See that's kind of what I'm laughing at (broadly speaking, not specific to your post).

When Kakko sucks, its because of Quinn.

When he develops, well it's because that's just him returning to form, or getting older, or returning to Finland.

When Miller is in Wisconsin, it's a tire fire and we need to get him out of there.

When he thrives in the NHL thus far, it's because he was developed in Wisconsin. Or because he's a freak athlete who can overcome (wouldn't that also have applied to the tire fire he was supposedly in as well?).y

When Fox signs he is pegged as top four defenseman, ideally more of a second pair type. When he becomes a first pair defenseman, with a trajectory toward elite territory, it's because of the gifts God gave him.

That's without even going into Chytil's progress, or ADA finding his game before blowing it for himself, or how Lindgren went from marginal prospect in the eyes of many to a steady top-four defenseman.

At some point, we don't have agree with everything Quinn does to give him some credit as well. It doesn't have to be one of the other. It can be a mix.

It's not just because kids got older. Because lord knows if they got older, and didn't progress, there would be posters chomping at the bit to point to it as a Quinn failure.

At some point, we spend so much time hopping around on the the things that supposedly suck, that some of the criticisms really do border on parody.

Devil's advocate in me sees that 4 of those guys are defensemen, 3 from the NCAA which is Quinn's wheelhouse, and wonders if maybe Martin's hand as a defensive specialist and his system has already had more to do with those guys developing (with ADA being the exception having already put up 53 pts last season).

But I barely know my ass from my elbow when it comes to coaches and all that so pay me no mind.

 

[True Blue]

Pretty clear at this point that Lafreneire developed Miller over the fall at that rich family's outdoor rink in Connecticut but did so at the expense of developing himself.

Just when you thought the contortions that people put themselves through not to give any credit to Quinn for player development could possibly not get any more comical. We have now arrived at the point that prospects are developing themselves. Yet another HF gem.

 

[wafflepadsave]

In that same vein, we've seen guys post career offensive numbers on the offensive side of things. So the concept of developing offense, isn't totally lost on us. In fact, heading into this season, I don't know if anyone thought it was a concern area. Yet here we are.

Personally, I think this season underscores just how much of a keystone player Zibanejad is on this roster and how literally everything else falls into place around him.

We've now seen both extremes the last two years. But I find myself wondering if the 2021 version of Zibanejad is performing like the 2019-20 version, how different the conversation looks.

Now having said that, the offense is simply not working. It looks confused, it doesn't look forceful and it needs a major change. So I'm under no illusions that what we're seeing is a good thing.

Which I believe they’ll let this play out this season and if certain older players don’t fit in the description of what the front office wants, then we’ll continue to see changes to reflect that.

 

[kovazub94]

Pretty clear at this point that Lafreneire developed Miller over the fall at that rich family's outdoor rink in Connecticut but did so at the expense of developing himself.

Beat me to it, lol. Lafreniere wasted all his moves on Miller and lost confidence after Miller started stopping Laf at every turn.

 

[LORDE]

Perfectly fine for us to finally have some 1st round picks, to then win the lottery (in effect twice) and want a Crosby, McDavid, Mackinnon franchise player out of one of them. We never draft that high EVER. So of course we NEED it to pay off.

It's also ok to be patient with those players especially during these f***ed up times we currently live in because everything is exponentially different for everyone, including these kids.

 

[Daves a mess]

Watching the Hawks/Wings game.
BOTH teams play WAY more stiff on the puck along the boards in both zones than the Rangers do. And its not even close.

Same with both teams in the Winnipeg/Oilers i tuned into last night.

Namestikov is playing his ass off too. Wings play hard.

 

[Avery16]

So Miller just developed himself? You can honestly say that with a straight face? A 20 year old kid who has not even played defense his entire career does not look at all amazing at defending while in college, just simply developed himself by skating in a backyard with Lafreniere? This sounds logical to you?

Instead of jumping in blind like a jackass with your hot take per the usual, you should bother to at least acquaint yourself with the conversation you're referencing. The discussion was who deserves the credit for Miller- Martin vs Quinn.

I took the stance that Miller more or less came to camp this season ready to go. That doesn't mean he was born onto the rink, plug and play, as you claim others to include myself are suggesting. How many coaches have been involved with Miller in his life at this point? 20? 30? How many hours has he committed to his development on his own time? Mentors and influential peers? At how many stages of play has performed, a dozen?

But you want to give Martin, here with Miller for about 1.5 months the credit. Or is it Quinn, who has worked with Miller for a couple additional weeks? Ok, chief. You do you.

 

[HatTrick Swayze]

My main problem with Quinn is that I'm not confident he can deliver on the x's and o's specifically 5v5 in the offensive zone.

Last year they were extremely explosive, flourishing in counterattack/transition scenarios. To me that screams "letting your guys play" in a more hands off way. Focusing on intentions and effort can be enough when your players have a relatively freeform gameplan to execute.

This year they take steps to tighten up the d zone and the offense completely dries up. They have generally been poor at generating chances when they get the puck into the offensive zone 5v5. Guess when they generated the most scoring chances 5v5 this season? Tuesday with 32...next closest was 25. That was they played a sloppy, wide open game. Tuesday was ALSO the most scoring chances against they gave up all season with 41. Next closest was 28.

I don't believe Quinn has the ability to coach offense well in a structured way. Which certainly concerns me RE Lafreniere and Kakko.

 

[kovazub94]

So Miller just developed himself? You can honestly say that with a straight face? A 20 year old kid who has not even played defense his entire career does not look at all amazing at defending while in college, just simply developed himself by skating in a backyard with Lafreniere? This sounds logical to you?

The most ridiculous thing is the mental gymnastics on these boards when failures are thrown 100% at the feet of Quinn without allowing for a possibility that players might not be just as talented as projected or did do something themselves that caused their failure. On the other hand they found hundreds of qualifies - some of an outrageous nature - just because a poster can’t admit that Quinn can actually do something right.

To me - with so many successful developmental stories on the Rangers since Quinn became the HC, he earned more of a benefit of a doubt and have successes attributed to him being here than being questioned for failures, especially when it’s not really failures yet - just fans being impatient not getting instant gratifications.

 

[kovazub94]

Just when you thought the contortions that people put themselves through not to give any credit to Quinn for player development could possibly not get any more comical. We have now arrived at the point that prospects are developing themselves. Yet another HF gem.

True, c’mon, turn your sarcasm detector on.

 

[Daves a mess]

My main problem with Quinn is that I'm not confident he can deliver on the x's and o's specifically 5v5 in the offensive zone.

Last year they were extremely explosive, flourishing in counterattack/transition scenarios. To me that screams "letting your guys play" in a more hands off way. Focusing on intentions and effort can be enough when your players have a relatively freeform gameplan to execute.

This year they take steps to tighten up the d zone and the offense completely dries up. They have generally been poor at generating chances when they get the puck into the offensive zone 5v5. Guess when they generated the most scoring chances 5v5 this season? Tuesday with 32...next closest was 25. That was they played a sloppy, wide open game. Tuesday was ALSO the most scoring chances against they gave up all season with 41. Next closest was 28.

I don't believe Quinn has the ability to coach offense well in a structured way. Which certainly concerns me RE Lafreniere and Kakko.

I have a feeling that Jacques has a lot more juice in regards to imposing his coaching will than many of us had previously thought. Including myself.

 

[IDvsEGO]

So will that be from his teammates or himself creating more time and space? I don’t know honestly.

It’s probably a combination of his teammates burying pucks(Strome missed several) and also a small increase in speed or just making a play slightly faster.

 

[kovazub94]

For those asking Quinn’s removal - it’s probably 70%-80% chance that Martin would be the replacement. Just making sure you’re aware.

 

[True Blue]

Instead of jumping in blind like a jackass with your hot take per the usual, you should bother to at least acquaint yourself with the conversation you're referencing. The discussion was who deserves the credit for Miller- Martin vs Quinn.

Hahahahaha....jackass......Answer your phone. Kettle on line 2.

I took the stance that Miller more or less came to camp this season ready to go. That doesn't mean he was born onto the rink, plug and play, as you claim others to include myself are suggesting. How many coaches have been involved with Miller in his life at this point? 20? 30? How many hours has he committed to his development on his own time? Mentors and influential peers? At how many stages of play has performed, a dozen?

What does it mean he came in ready to go? That he kept himself in shape skating with Lafreniere? That a 20 year old came in ready to be a top-4 defenseman in the NHL after NOT having been that amazing at defending?

You DO know for how long Miller has been a defenseman, right? Because if you did, you would realize how much of an ignorant douche you sound like when you claim he has had 30 coaches.

I am sure that his coach from high school and Granato are completely responsible for him. Yeah. Last year, he was being ruined by Granato. Now, we are owing thanks to Granato. Or does he not count and Miller's high school coach is responsible for this?

But you want to give Martin, here with Miller for about 1.5 months the credit. Or is it Quinn, who has worked with Miller for a couple additional weeks? Ok, chief. You do you.

And you want to thank his high school coach for his development. What sounds like the more realistic scenario?

 

[True Blue]

The most ridiculous thing is the mental gymnastics on these boards when failures are thrown 100% at the feet of Quinn without allowing for a possibility that players might not be just as talented as projected or did do something themselves that caused their failure. On the other hand they found hundreds of qualifies - some of an outrageous nature - just because a poster can’t admit that Quinn can actually do something right.

To me - with so many successful developmental stories on the Rangers since Quinn became the HC, he earned more of a benefit of a doubt and have successes attributed to him being here than being questioned for failures, especially when it’s not really failures yet - just fans being impatient not getting instant gratifications.

Chalk it up to HF is gonna HF

 

[Kovalev27]

People continuing to bring up defensemen when repeatedly we’re talking about Quinn’s ability to develop young super star level forwards is killing me. Just killing me

 

[Kovalev27]

Andersson garbage dubbed nhl ready
Howden garbage
Chytil only figured it out after knoblauch got his hands on him
Kravtsov org thought he’d be in better hands in Siberia
Kakko barely an nhler last season dubbed nhl ready
Lafreniere as close to a generational first overall as you can get without actually being a generational talent. Has 1 point.
Gauthier barely in the lineup

these are all first round picks none are hitting their marks let alone actually looking great under Quinn. Kakko the closest and he’s got 3 points all year.

these are red flags when they all can’t figure it out under the same coach.

 

[shnagle]

Laf isn't even reaching Yakupov levels right now. So give me a break with the whole "our expectations were too high" nonsense.

To be clear, my expectations for Laf is to be a franchise player. Safe to say you share those high expectations. I just don't expect him to be one today nor am I ready to change my expectation after 14 games.

 

[Vitto79]

So are they gonna pick up a LD to protect in expansion ?

Lindgren , Miller exempt , X
Trouba, Fox except , Lundkvist
Expose Bitetto and Hajek

Right now they protect Hajek if he qualified

Smith , JJ see ya.

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

For those asking Quinn’s removal - it’s probably 70%-80% chance that Martin would be the replacement. Just making sure you’re aware.

on an interim basis I think we're all aware and cool with that

 

[DutchShamrock]

So Miller just developed himself? You can honestly say that with a straight face? A 20 year old kid who has not even played defense his entire career does not look at all amazing at defending while in college, just simply developed himself by skating in a backyard with Lafreniere? This sounds logical to you?

If that's how you want to parse and interpret my post, have at it. I didn't say any of that, so I don't see why I have to defend that position.

 

[romba]

I think Georgiev's observations were correct. I think opposing teams expect us to force the pass, or make one pass too many. They anticipate it. And, as we've seen, they pounce on it.

I think there are player types that we are still missing. I think we could use a slot shooter, someone who gets into the high priced real estate. I think we need more North-South types on the roster, to balance out the East-West types. I do think we need someone doesn't necessarily have to carry the puck through the zone, but is focused on getting his shot off. I think we need more of the swarming, pesky personality that we were starting to develop a few years back. I think we've shown a bit more of that of late.

The OT 2 on 1 against Boston, Buch has open seas straight to the net but forces pass through D as expected, breakaway ensues the other way and game over. It's comical at this point.

 

[romba]

Ok. Who would you like to attribute it to? Donato and Granato?

The mentality is that all a coach can really do to develop youth is to give them tons of ice time and otherwise step away like EA sports or something. Need PP1 time off the bat, 1st line too, the more the player struggles the more ice time they need of course. So if you think that way, then a coach can only ruin a player but not develop them, which is why you and @Edge are spinning your wheels trying to use logic with these guys. So Miller, Fox et al 'developed themselves' by just getting ice time, Quinn can't really get' credit' for that, anyone can give ice time. But Kakko and Laf are being controlled more., so Quinn is clearly ruining them.

 

[Oscar Lindberg]

If Zibanejad continues to play as he does I think he’ll be moved and Gorton will go all in on Eichel

the assets required for Eichel would sting but I don’t think it would be obscene