Speculation: Roster Building Thread LXXX: MOAR sandpaper, guts & glory?

[pld459666]

In fairness to Kreider, he did lay out Charlie McAvoy late after McAvoy threw out a leg to trip Kakko earlier in the game.

The pressure before the hit also caused the late penalty that the Rangers did nothing with.

There's complaints on CK to be sure, but he did exact some justice in tjat spot

 

[pld459666]

Can you imagine Joe Judge making this statement about his team? How are you building confidence in your group by saying this?

How about saying Boston is a tough physical team and I'm proud of our response to it tonight and we'll keeping working on that aspect of our game.

Much ado about nothing.

If Joe Judge team were one of the youngest in the league and made that statement, it would garner no reaction at all.

 

[Cmox]

A face only a mother could love. He vaguely reminds me Aaron Hernandez.

So does Boston make it some sorta must to have ugly f***os on the team?

 

[Sayba]

Much ado about nothing.

If Joe Judge team were one of the youngest in the league and made that statement, it would garner no reaction at all.

Fake it until you make it, build your team up to someday get there or improve. Telling them they are young, aren't men / tough publicly isn't the way I would manage.

 

[Kendo]

Chris seems to be a 4- 4.5 mill 35 point winger in my mind.

The only time in the past 7 years that he failed to hit 40 points were seasons of 66 and 58 games. I don't think his game is going to magically fall off of a cliff in the first year of this contract. He should be a 20+/20+ guy for at least a couple more seasons, slow start notwithstanding.

Either you're joking and you actually agree, or "in your mind" he can be classified as a worse player than he has ever been.

kreider is an avg second liner to elite third liner.

I looked at arguably his worst season, 2015-16. He was still ranked 132 (give or take) in P/GP for forwards. He regularly ranks around 100 outside of that one season. He is a high end 2nd liner, and always has been. Just like the other guy, you are *concerned* that he has already regressed into a 35-point guy, but it is stated as if that has already happened.

I like the guy. His contract is too long. He's about $1m overpaid. He's been cold to start the season, but he has always been a hot/cold player. CK's play has been an issue in this early-going, but not nearly the crux of the team's issues.

Our biggest problem is center depth. Our second and third biggest problems are center depth. Our fourth biggest problem is the slow starts for our young studs up front (which is part coaching and part, again, center depth).

 

[Cmox]

The hate for Kreider on this board is over the top. The problem with this team and has been for years is lack of skill at the center position. Listen we lost the Cup finals to the Kings a few years ago because they were far better than us in the middle and ironically that was probably the best set of centers we have had since. Sorry if you want to pick on somebody go after Zibs. You can't have a number 1 center playing like this for this long. After that Howden stinks. How many times last night did a freakin pass go off his stick. As for Strom if DQ thought he played well then its time for both of them to go together. The kids played well but will continue to be held back until we get some competent guys playing center... and this team will continue to struggle to score.

I just think ( like Trouba) his play doesn’t warrant the cap space. If you’re gonna make that much at least make fans see you’re engaged and trying. He’s stationary a lot of the time. Barely throws a check and hasn’t been skating like usual. He coasts a lot. That’s mainly where the animosity is aimed. We all know he’s a slow starter but there isn’t a lot of time this season.

 

[CommaSynapse]

This team is better than the way they're playing. I don't think Quinn is necessarily a bad coach, but I do think he's focusing far too much on systems play when it should be a balance.

Defense is better, sure, but if it's at the cost of offense, it's like we're back in the Torts and AV days. So much focus on systems and establishing that muscle memory at the detriment of skill and learning to read and react to the play. I feel like that's why we see so many guys standing around looking like they're waiting for everyone else to make the play.

I think there's a balance to be had, but Quinn is favoring one side to too great of an extent.

With the type of skill we have, dump and chase hockey doesn't make sense--maybe forr the bottom-6, but even then, our third-line has skill. But with the amount of skill in the top-6, we should be cycling to open up space. I feel like our guys get rubbed out along the boards too often when they go to carry it in or even dump and chase (see Lindgren last night). One reason Zucc was so effective for us is because he'd get into the zone and be elusive enough to work the puck in deep in tight spaces along the boards.

We collapse too much defensively and leave the points with too much time and space. And the transition isn't great. It always seems like it's a single forward carrying the puck into the zone against the 2 d-men and one back-checking forward.

 

[gravey9]

If this rebuild has taught me anything it's that all these analytics and stats don't amount to much if you can't get the big play when you need it.

What's missing from the team right now is, you're down by a goal late in the game -- who steps up? Who's going to make a play?

Whose the player that sends a message to the other team when they're taking liberties and thus galvanize your own team?

It's leadership, but it's also someone who has the skill and temperament to elevate their game when needed. Lundqvist had it. Messier had it. Leetch could elevate his game when needed.

Who is that for this team?

Right now, no one. In a year or two it needs to be Kakko, Laf, Fox or Miller. But someone needs to have that extra gear and leadership ability to rise to the occasion.

 

[LORDE]

At the end of the day I see a team trying to play the right way and defending constantly.

Never (or almost never) do I see a team imposing their will on anyone.

Their play is nearly 100% reactionary.

To win that way you have to be very good defensively, and either very lucky or skilled enough to take advantage of the few opportunities you will get.

They’re not either right now

 

[Glen Sathers Cigar]

Quinn is a loser. He has a loser mentality. He gives too much respect to the opponents. I don’t care how good Boston is or how well coached and structured the Islanders are, your coach shouldn’t justify losing to them. He shouldn’t accept it and think it’s okay, even if the logic tracks, because that type of mindset trickles down to the players.

 

[Cmox]

This is very unexpected. Our defense is shockingly good and our offense is shockingly bad. I really thought those 2 things would be flipped.

The D is the bright spot. The PK is A+. What are they like 20+/20+ for the last few games?

 

[MrAlmost]

The D is the bright spot. The PK is A+. What are they like 20+/20+ for the last few games?

Yeah or close to it. But in regards to an earlier post you made, I think people dont realize how valuable Trouba really is. He is a big reason why the top 4 of Trouba-Miller and Fox-Lindgren is so good. If we get rid of him the people talking about how impressive our shot suppression is and how our analytics tell "a different story" than our record, will be the same people complaining about how many high danger chances we have against and how Miller is outmatched or Fox-Lindrgen is better suited as the 3-4.

Is he over paid, maybe. But I would argue less than people think. I think Panarin's contract will hurt more moving forward than Trouba's.

EDIT: Your post was about Kreider, but you mentioned Trouba as overpaid. I dont mean to imply that you dont value him or that you think he sucks or whatever.

 

[Sayba]

Quinn is a loser. He has a loser mentality. He gives too much respect to the opponents. I don’t care how good Boston is or how well coached and structured the Islanders are, your coach shouldn’t justify losing to them. He should accept it and think it’s okay, even if the logic tracks, because that type of mindset trickles down to the players.

I heard that Tom Brady texted every teammate Saturday night before the game telling them they are going to win.

What if Brady told the team the Chiefs are too good, defending champs and they beat us last time vs. his building confidence approach / leadership.

Let's look at hockey, Mark Messier said we will win.

Quinn is out there knocking his team as they can't do something.

 

[doomscroll]

This team was historically bad defensively for at least three years (Almost 35 shots against on average/gp from 2017-2020). There was immense need for an overhaul behind the blue-line, and so far the Rangers are averaging about 28.4 shots against/gp. The system is brand-new and the circumstances of this season are unprecedented, it’s not surprising that the offense has struggled to settle-in so far.

 

[kovazub94]

This is very unexpected. Our defense is shockingly good and our offense is shockingly bad. I really thought those 2 things would be flipped.

Defense being good should hold up while offense being bad will eventually turn around.

 

[Daves a mess]

The only time in the past 7 years that he failed to hit 40 points were seasons of 66 and 58 games. I don't think his game is going to magically fall off of a cliff in the first year of this contract. He should be a 20+/20+ guy for at least a couple more seasons, slow start notwithstanding.

Either you're joking and you actually agree, or "in your mind" he can be classified as a worse player than he has ever been.



I looked at arguably his worst season, 2015-16. He was still ranked 132 (give or take) in P/GP for forwards. He regularly ranks around 100 outside of that one season. He is a high end 2nd liner, and always has been. Just like the other guy, you are *concerned* that he has already regressed into a 35-point guy, but it is stated as if that has already happened.

I like the guy. His contract is too long. He's about $1m overpaid. He's been cold to start the season, but he has always been a hot/cold player. CK's play has been an issue in this early-going, but not nearly the crux of the team's issues.

Our biggest problem is center depth. Our second and third biggest problems are center depth. Our fourth biggest problem is the slow starts for our young studs up front (which is part coaching and part, again, center depth).

Ok. You think Chris is a 40 point player for at least the next few years a I think he's a 35 point player for at least the next few years. You think he's about a mill overpaid and I think hes about 2 mill overpaid. Both agree its too long. Gotcha.

 

[kovazub94]

Another game where I counted the shots coming from the perimeter. Might have been 18-6 in favor of BOS when it came to slot shots. Analytically, this team feels like they are a little slow with the learning curve when it comes to the offensive zone. It's not that they don't know, but they aren't being smart about their shot placement. The numbers do not favor them at all. The way they are playing, 3 goals is a stretch. Even on the powerplay.

Move after you pass, move after you shoot. You also have a group that doesn't seem to know how to coordinate on a dump and chase to win a board battle. I think the coaching staff is limiting themselves if they are only watching the east. Sure it's less work, and probably an easier day at the office, but that can be corrected right?

Go look at the Wheeler Sheifele line and how they establish a forecheck. Foligno, Jenner. Barkov, Kopitar. If they are just analyzing their own failed plays on the iPad after each incompletion, then they aren't "learning". You learn by following what works. You can't have period after period of the same failed approach.

Have the video coach show tapes of competency, instead of the play these players just made. I think that will go a long way in progressing things, that should help some guys that are stuck in a cycle of remediation.

Hell make it easy on yourself, watch MTL. Just copy Claude. Do whatever he's doing and you are getting ahead. It's the breakouts, copy the breakouts. BOS's doing it. Pacioretty took that to Vegas. Vegas is doing it. MTL is doing it. Sweeney didn't change a ton other than play different guys and won a Jack Adams.

How do you think Tatar goes from the fringes to being an analytics star overnight on one of the best lines in hockey? How is Petry contending for the Norris this year?

The team’s offensive performance this game was undoubtedly worse than in the previous outing when there were a lot more inside shots.

As far as viewing videos - sure, if you want to change the system when you feel that what you have then go look at other clubs. Otherwise if they’re teaching to play within existing system then yeah, you look at your own tapes.

 

[MrAlmost]

Defense being good should hold up while offense being bad will eventually turn around.

Fair point. But I feel like I heard that for a long time about Buffalo, Edmonton, Florida and Arizona.

Of course, I'm not saying we will end up like those teams, but I would like to see this team maybe move Howden for bennett. I think a player like that could be a real find for our team. Kinda like Roslovic for the Jackets right now, but not to that level. Just similar.

 

[Rongomania]

Man if our whole team wasn't injured/snakebit to all hell Shesty would probably have the best goalie stats in the league. Love this fckn kid so much. And that feistiness ooof.

oh and watching Kakko and Laf was so god damn beautiful. Laf is yet another player just bringing the absolute best out of Kakko. And Happy Birthday to the 20 year old man!

 

[doomscroll]

Fair point. But I feel like I heard that for a long time about Buffalo, Edmonton, Florida and Arizona.

Of course, I'm not saying we will end up like those teams, but I would like to see this team maybe move Howden for bennett. I think a player like that could be a real find for our team. Kinda like Roslovic for the Jackets right now, but not to that level. Just similar.

None of those teams have been particularly good defensively for some time. Most of them have been outright bad.

 

[NoQuitInNewMexico]

Did Dallas get way more defensive right after firing Ruff or was there like a year or two in between?

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

View attachment 395949

Man if our whole team wasn't injured/snakebit to all hell Shesty would probably have the best goalie stats in the league. Love this fckn kid so much. And that feistiness ooof.

oh and watching Kakko and Laf was so god damn beautiful. Laf is yet another player just bringing the absolute best out of Kakko. And Happy Birthday to the 20 year old man!

Igor "Jacob DeGrom" Shesterkin

 

[MarkMessyay11]

If this rebuild has taught me anything it's that all these analytics and stats don't amount to much if you can't get the big play when you need it.

What's missing from the team right now is, you're down by a goal late in the game -- who steps up? Who's going to make a play?

Whose the player that sends a message to the other team when they're taking liberties and thus galvanize your own team?

It's leadership, but it's also someone who has the skill and temperament to elevate their game when needed. Lundqvist had it. Messier had it. Leetch could elevate his game when needed.

Who is that for this team?

Right now, no one. In a year or two it needs to be Kakko, Laf, Fox or Miller. But someone needs to have that extra gear and leadership ability to rise to the occasion.

It almost sounds like you're describing the youngest team in the league coming out of a 3-year rebuild with huge veteran turnover and a bunch of new rookie or 2nd year teammates trying to find their identity...

My sarcasm is for 2 reasons - 1) because you're definitely right and 2) so am I...we (as a fan base) are entitled to frustration, but I think we also need to be more patient and let the process work. The "rebuild" isn't over yet. Maybe phase 1 of trimming the fat and injecting draft picks/prospects into the system is over. But now we have to let these kids learn and grow now. And growing pains are a real thing, as we're experiencing first-hand right now. But the overall level of play this season has been encouraging and the top young talented guys seem to be finding their games.

Yes, we lost the last 2 games. But we also gave highly competitive, hard-fought efforts against a perennial Cup contender. We arguably could/should have even won 1 of them if it hadn't been for stellar goaltending. From a rebuilding perspective, that's a win in my book.

 

[UnSandvich]

Fun facts

Buch is 2nd on the team in SH TOI on the season, 3rd in SH TOI/GP (and Johnson only playing 5 games skews that), and has the 4th lowest PPGA/60 among PK regulars (which i'm defining as 1:15 or more SH TOI/GP), 2nd best among F's after only Strome, who continues last years trend of being better defensively on the PK than at 5v5

 

[kovazub94]

Fair point. But I feel like I heard that for a long time about Buffalo, Edmonton, Florida and Arizona.

Of course, I'm not saying we will end up like those teams, but I would like to see this team maybe move Howden for bennett. I think a player like that could be a real find for our team. Kinda like Roslovic for the Jackets right now, but not to that level. Just similar.

TBH I wouldn’t be against it because the Rangers seemed we’re able to find good alternatives for the bottom line and while I’m far from Howden’s hater I think he will be a very good 4th liner but run of the mill 3rd liner at best.