Speculation: Roster Building Thread LXXI

[Shesterkybomb]

Id honesty like to revisit Duclair if it was reasonable and we could swing it. I think whoever signs him is gonna finally get the player who was a key part of team Canada when they won. Im surprised Columbus hasn't signed him yet, they need scoring and with Domi there and them having chemistry from years ago it makes sense to me.

 

[EdJovanovski]

Yea I don't think anyone is just born being a phenomenal hockey player, we see incredibly successful people in life but don't see all the grueling work they put into getting to where they are. There is no such thing as a lazy NHL player, and the best players are the ones who worked the hardest to get where they are

 

[Cmox]

Dubinsky has a good taste in HF posters.View attachment 378807View attachment 378808

Didn’t this turn out to be photoshopped? Unless I’m thinking of something else,

 

[Savant]

Id honesty like to revisit Duclair if it was reasonable and we could swing it. I think whoever signs him is gonna finally get the player who was a key part of team Canada when they won. Im surprised Columbus hasn't signed him yet, they need scoring and with Domi there and them having chemistry from years ago it makes sense to me.

No money. No room at LW

 

[bobbop]

Just in case you are... You suck!

Don't badmouth Nick Holden. He spends most of every warmup flipping pucks to kids. If you know where to stand you almost certainly will get a puck from him. Made me a hero with two of my grandsons.

 

[Raspewtin]

If I could have my pick between a Tanner Glass and a Sidney Crosby to be in charge of prospect development, I'd pick Tanner Glass any day because those type of players know what it takes to make it. They had to work for it, study tapes more, spend more time on understanding the little nuances since they (to quote Herb Brooks) didn't have enough talent to make it on talent alone.

i understand your point but Crosby is such a bad example

he might have the best documented “drive” to be better than every hockey player ever. his player profile is quite literally “the worlds greatest grinder”

 

[HatTrick Swayze]

i understand your point but Crosby is such a bad example

he might have the best documented “drive” to be better than every hockey player ever. his player profile is quite literally “the worlds greatest grinder”

Agreed, was going to post something similar. His point is very valid but Crosby might not be the best example.

When I was a senior in college in 2009 a 21 year old Crosby and the Pens scheduled a practice at our teams' rink (can't remember why). It was on short notice and not a publicized event so there were only a handful of college kids in the stands. For an extended period of time, say 30 min or so they split the ice into 2. Bylsma worked with the dmen in one zone and Crosby led that portion of practice for the entire forward group. Now kind of a weird situation because I believe Therrien had just been fired and Blysma was a green very young coach. But the point is Crosby at 21 was leading an entire segment of practice. He is the rare combination of skill, intelligence, and drive...that's why he's one of the all time greats. I have zero doubt he would be an excellent coach or exec in a development capacity.

 

[Shesterkybomb]

Agreed, was going to post something similar. His point is very valid but Crosby might not be the best example.

When I was a senior in college in 2009 a 21 year old Crosby and the Pens scheduled a practice at our teams' rink (can't remember why). It was on short notice and not a publicized event so there were only a handful of college kids in the stands. For an extended period of time, say 30 min or so they split the ice into 2. Bylsma worked with the dmen in one zone and Crosby led that portion of practice for the entire forward group. Now kind of a weird situation because I believe Therrien had just been fired and Blysma was a green very young coach. But the point is Crosby at 21 was leading an entire segment of practice. He is the rare combination of skill, intelligence, and drive...that's why he's one of the all time greats. I have zero doubt he would be an excellent coach or exec in a development capacity.

You should see the guy work in the summer its just unreal. On a day that's barely fit for walking with the heat he's doing sprints up Citadel Hill, that hill is a huge incline.

 

[Thirty One]

Don't badmouth Nick Holden. He spends most of every warmup flipping pucks to kids. If you know where to stand you almost certainly will get a puck from him. Made me a hero with two of my grandsons.

How does this help me, an adult?

 

[Oscar Lindberg]

How does this help me, an adult?

A couple years ago I was at a Sharks preseason game vs the Coyotes. I wore a Stepan shirt and got right by the glass and tried to get his attention to show I was a fan.

I finally got his attention, and he flipped me something, but it wasn’t a puck....

That’s the the only type of flipping that happens between players and adults

 

[Fitzy]

Don't badmouth Nick Holden. He spends most of every warmup flipping pucks to kids. If you know where to stand you almost certainly will get a puck from him. Made me a hero with two of my grandsons.

If I wasn't so attached to my current profile description this would definitely become my new one.

Most unfairly bashed NYR dman since Rozsival

 

[Tawnos]

If I could have my pick between a Tanner Glass and a Sidney Crosby to be in charge of prospect development, I'd pick Tanner Glass any day because those type of players know what it takes to make it. They had to work for it, study tapes more, spend more time on understanding the little nuances since they (to quote Herb Brooks) didn't have enough talent to make it on talent alone.

I think the argument of Glass vs Crosby is a bit of an exxageration.

You take Crosby every time. His work ethic is well documented and you can book it that Glass doesn't come close in regards to studying/prep-work.

Yes, the players at the bottom of the totem pole have to work and study pretty hard because the raw talent isn't there to match the top players.

But Glass ain't outworking Crosby.

Inb4 Gretzky's coaching stint in Arizona is brought up

No way....Sid scratched and clawed from day one to be better every year. You can maybe say this about a guy like Kovalev or Yashin but you can't lump Sid in there. I've seen some of his offseason work and the help he's given prospects from the Maritimes, there's no wonder guys like Marchand, MacKinnon, Graves, etc have improved every offseason and its because they train and skate with Sid in the offseason. Even Morgan and Justin Barron have gotten the rub. I understand your point but Sid isn't the best example, id take him near over anyone.

i understand your point but Crosby is such a bad example

he might have the best documented “drive” to be better than every hockey player ever. his player profile is quite literally “the worlds greatest grinder”

Agreed, was going to post something similar. His point is very valid but Crosby might not be the best example.

When I was a senior in college in 2009 a 21 year old Crosby and the Pens scheduled a practice at our teams' rink (can't remember why). It was on short notice and not a publicized event so there were only a handful of college kids in the stands. For an extended period of time, say 30 min or so they split the ice into 2. Bylsma worked with the dmen in one zone and Crosby led that portion of practice for the entire forward group. Now kind of a weird situation because I believe Therrien had just been fired and Blysma was a green very young coach. But the point is Crosby at 21 was leading an entire segment of practice. He is the rare combination of skill, intelligence, and drive...that's why he's one of the all time greats. I have zero doubt he would be an excellent coach or exec in a development capacity.

You should see the guy work in the summer its just unreal. On a day that's barely fit for walking with the heat he's doing sprints up Citadel Hill, that hill is a huge incline.

I think all of the posts pointing to Crosby's work ethic are entirely beside the point that @Amazing Kreiderman was making. Crosby might spend a lot of time on skills and physical workout. He might spend a lot of time looking at tape. He might be a good leader and teacher of peers. The point here, though, is that even despite those things, he might not have a great handle on what it takes for the average player to make it. Why not? Because every single thing he tries to do, he can do. He might work hard at doing them, but there are no limits on his game at all. I vividly remember after the '09 season, Crosby decided he wanted to become a better goal scorer. Yes, he worked very hard to get to the point where he could score 50 goals the next season. It's just that dedicating himself to the goal is literally the only thing he had to do to achieve it. Gretzky actually did a similar thing when, after scoring 70+ goals in 4 straight seasons, he just decided to go for averaging 2 assists per game the next season and, through hard work and dedication, was able to accomplish it. Both are pretty amazing, but actually sort of illustrate the point.

In general, a player who had to fight for every single scrap has a completely different understanding of how to help young players maximize their potential than someone who can set simply his mind to something, work hard to achieve it, and achieve it every time. That can cause a disconnect with being able to convey things to the players. Your average Tanner Glass has a better chance of actually helping someone like Filip Chytil, despite Chytil possessing far more talent than Glass could ever dream of, than your average Sidney Crosby. Does that mean that Crosby couldn't possibly be really good at helping prospects, maybe even better than Glass? No, it doesn't. But the odds are against it.

 

[Lindberg Cheese]

A couple years ago I was at a Sharks preseason game vs the Coyotes. I wore a Stepan shirt and got right by the glass and tried to get his attention to show I was a fan.

I finally got his attention, and he flipped me something, but it wasn’t a puck....

That’s the the only type of flipping that happens between players and adults

Did you paint your face? Face painters get zero

 

[Shesterkybomb]

I think all of the posts pointing to Crosby's work ethic are entirely beside the point that @Amazing Kreiderman was making. Crosby might spend a lot of time on skills and physical workout. He might spend a lot of time looking at tape. He might be a good leader and teacher of peers. The point here, though, is that even despite those things, he might not have a great handle on what it takes for the average player to make it. Why not? Because every single thing he tries to do, he can do. He might work hard at doing them, but there are no limits on his game at all. I vividly remember after the '09 season, Crosby decided he wanted to become a better goal scorer. Yes, he worked very hard to get to the point where he could score 50 goals the next season. It's just that dedicating himself to the goal is literally the only thing he had to do to achieve it. Gretzky actually did a similar thing when, after scoring 70+ goals in 4 straight seasons, he just decided to go for averaging 2 assists per game the next season and, through hard work and dedication, was able to accomplish it. Both are pretty amazing, but actually sort of illustrate the point.

In general, a player who had to fight for every single scrap has a completely different understanding of how to help young players maximize their potential than someone who can set simply his mind to something, work hard to achieve it, and achieve it every time. That can cause a disconnect with being able to convey things to the players. Your average Tanner Glass has a better chance of actually helping someone like Filip Chytil, despite Chytil possessing far more talent than Glass could ever dream of, than your average Sidney Crosby. Does that mean that Crosby couldn't possibly be really good at helping prospects, maybe even better than Glass? No, it doesn't. But the odds are against it.

I think the poster would have been better off mentioning Austen Matthews, Laine, Panarin, rather than Crosby. The guy pretty much runs the pp already and is coaching after pretty much every shift, i just don't think that was a good example.

 

[Tawnos]

I think the poster would have been better off mentioning Austen Matthews, Laine, Panarin, rather than Crosby. The guy pretty much runs the pp already and is coaching after pretty much every shift, i just don't think that was a good example.

Eh, peer leadership and coaching is a totally different animal than what we're discussing. Odds are that he wouldn't be as effective doing it from a position like the one Tanner Glass is in. Maybe he would. We won't know until after he's retired.

 

[NYRangers16]

I think the argument of Glass vs Crosby is a bit of an exxageration.

You take Crosby every time. His work ethic is well documented and you can book it that Glass doesn't come close in regards to studying/prep-work.

Yes, the players at the bottom of the totem pole have to work and study pretty hard because the raw talent isn't there to match the top players.

But Glass ain't outworking Crosby.

Inb4 Gretzky's coaching stint in Arizona is brought up

Work ethic is an overrated protestant ideal. Crosby has pure talent that he was a)born into genetically, and b)was nutured from a young age. Try beating that by working hard. Just wanted to put that counter point out there. And in hockey it’s moreso due to the convo we all we having last roster building post.

[edit] under the right circumstances, Glass could be Crosby, and Crosby could be Glass.

 

[bobbop]

How does this help me, an adult?

You haven’t been an adult long enough to understand.

 

[Profet]

Work ethic is an overrated protestant ideal. Crosby has pure talent that he was a)born into genetically, and b)was nutured from a young age. Try beating that by working hard. Just wanted to put that counter point out there. And in hockey it’s moreso due to the convo we all we having last roster building post.

[edit] under the right circumstances, Glass could be Crosby, and Crosby could be Glass.

I think what people are trying to convey is that Crosby is the product of having teachers/coaches/mentors that know how to work hard to overcome physical/genetic/mental obstacles to become a useful player teach a genetically gifted player.

You end up with superstar/franchise/generational type talents when you have someone truly genetically gifted and someone who ALSO knows how to work like their livelihood depends on it.

Crosby is an example of that.

That said, his gifts may make it hard for him to truly understand and teach someone who is less gifted. It's just a completely different head space knowing you'll never be able to do X, so instead, I'll compensate by doing Y. Crosby has probably never been unable to do X.

 

[Edge]

I think all of the posts pointing to Crosby's work ethic are entirely beside the point that @Amazing Kreiderman was making. Crosby might spend a lot of time on skills and physical workout. He might spend a lot of time looking at tape. He might be a good leader and teacher of peers. The point here, though, is that even despite those things, he might not have a great handle on what it takes for the average player to make it. Why not? Because every single thing he tries to do, he can do. He might work hard at doing them, but there are no limits on his game at all. I vividly remember after the '09 season, Crosby decided he wanted to become a better goal scorer. Yes, he worked very hard to get to the point where he could score 50 goals the next season. It's just that dedicating himself to the goal is literally the only thing he had to do to achieve it. Gretzky actually did a similar thing when, after scoring 70+ goals in 4 straight seasons, he just decided to go for averaging 2 assists per game the next season and, through hard work and dedication, was able to accomplish it. Both are pretty amazing, but actually sort of illustrate the point.

In general, a player who had to fight for every single scrap has a completely different understanding of how to help young players maximize their potential than someone who can set simply his mind to something, work hard to achieve it, and achieve it every time. That can cause a disconnect with being able to convey things to the players. Your average Tanner Glass has a better chance of actually helping someone like Filip Chytil, despite Chytil possessing far more talent than Glass could ever dream of, than your average Sidney Crosby. Does that mean that Crosby couldn't possibly be really good at helping prospects, maybe even better than Glass? No, it doesn't. But the odds are against it.

I agree.

At the higher levels coaches/guides/mentors don't make skilled players more talented. They're pretty much doing detail work to get that extra fraction of a second, or that extra little bit of mileage out of a player's tank.

Generally speaking, the guys who have a better grasp on those details tend to be the guys who really had to work on it. They had to study the game and see what other players were doing and not doing. They had to work for eveyr shift they got --- even if the skill level meant they weren't going to play 1,400 games or score 1,000 points.

Does someone like Glass necessarily have a fundamental understanding of every aspect of hockey? No, of course not. But he does potentially bring value to kids who are adjusting their diet, learning to play against increasingly difficult competition, etc.

You talk to a lot of elite skill players and you realize that it's very difficult for them to explain what they do. It just comes naturally to them. When a player can't mimmick what they do, there's often a challenge of figuring out alternatives.

That's not just a fan perspective, you hear players talk about that too. Frankly, many star players recognize that in themselves.

As a sidenote, Jagr was a guy who recognized very early on he couldn't really explain how he did what he did. I always found him to be one of the most self-aware players I've ever interacted with.

 

[NYR94]

Yeah there's a reason why most great coaches in sports weren't great players. I just don't think guys like Crosby have the ability to teach the way they need to because the game always came easy to them and they "see" the game in a way 99% of their teammates/opponents could never understand. I can't imagine what Gretzky must have been thinking behind the Coyotes' bench watching mere mortals play.

 

[True Blue]

If I could have my pick between a Tanner Glass and a Sidney Crosby to be in charge of prospect development, I'd pick Tanner Glass any day because those type of players know what it takes to make it. They had to work for it, study tapes more, spend more time on understanding the little nuances since they (to quote Herb Brooks) didn't have enough talent to make it on talent alone.

Absolutely. That is why great players rarely make great coaches whereas great coaches are more often than not journeymen players.

 

[True Blue]

Same, but for different reasons. I like chaos

Going to be honest. Not sure that I am getting where the urge to see Messier as a head coach come from. Even if he was a viable option, he has no head coaching experience anywhere. Why is it a good idea to install him as the coach of a NHL franchise?

 

[SA16]

Yeah there's a reason why most great coaches in sports weren't great players. I just don't think guys like Crosby have the ability to teach the way they need to because the game always came easy to them and they "see" the game in a way 99% of their teammates/opponents could never understand. I can't imagine what Gretzky must have been thinking behind the Coyotes' bench watching mere mortals play.

The reason most great coaches aren't great players is because there are few great coaches and few great players so the chance of having a great coach that was a great player is low.

I doubt there is any actual correlation between quality of player and quality of coach.

 

[SingnBluesOnBroadway]

Work ethic is an overrated protestant ideal. Crosby has pure talent that he was a)born into genetically, and b)was nutured from a young age. Try beating that by working hard. Just wanted to put that counter point out there. And in hockey it’s moreso due to the convo we all we having last roster building post.

[edit] under the right circumstances, Glass could be Crosby, and Crosby could be Glass.

There is so much wrong with this post, it's hard to even start addressing it.

Glass could never be Crosby. And, while Crosby's talent would never allow him to be Glass, there sure was a chance that Crosby could have become a Rico Fata, Pavel Brendl, Alex Daigle, Patrick Stefan and may other highly-touted prospects who never panned out.

 

[True Blue]

There is so much wrong with this post, it's hard to even start addressing it.

Glass could never be Crosby. And, while Crosby's talent would never allow him to be Glass, there sure was a chance that Crosby could have become a Rico Fata, Pavel Brendl, Alex Daigle, Patrick Stefan and may other highly-touted prospects who never panned out.

Michael Jordan said it best . Great players practice great. They do not just rely on their God given talent. They constantly work to improve them.