Roster Building Thread IV (2022-23): Luck of the Irish

[Machinehead]

Yes! Rantanen and Kucherov DO exactly what I'm talking about, not to the degree of bergeron (they're wingers!) but they absolutely play the game so much harder and with much more commitment.

I don't have a problem with you disagreeing with me but don't condescend. If you were seeing the forest here, you'd actually respond to my points not to some nebulous stand in poster whining about grit. Our team at large is built a certain way. We dont have blazing speed. We don't have the type of defensemen who can spring a counter attack quickly.

You think Lindholm was just a shitty player on the ducks and then got prescribed Adderall in Boston? Offense, for our roster, has to come from engagement and awareness on the ice.

And it's ironic you'd use Lafreniere as your example of who sucks bc of whatever it is you've decided I'm saying. He was the only player who actually scored last game!!

Clearly not worth going back and forth on this with you.

I'm responding to you the way I am, because -and I'm all ears if I'm wrong, explain it to me- I feel like what you're saying is just grit but you're saying it in a way that it doesn't sound like grit.

To me "engagement and awareness" is just "we're not doing the little things" and #TheVets in a nicer package.

We're not doing the big things. We're not scoring. Every forwards comes here and gets worse.

It's statistical impossibility at this point that it's just ALL of the forwards not engaging of their own volition.

If you wanna tell me it's the coach, we can talk about that. Certain aspects of the culture? Agree with that. Holes in the roster as far as doing particular skills? All ears.

You said intangibles and leadership, and then talked about the top two lines phoning it in yesterday. Tell me where that's not the tired old "country club" narrative. Tell me what I'm missing.

Yes. And MY POINTS were about how and why we struggle to do this. You go from saying Zibanejad has no skills last week to singing his praises as an offensive dynamo held back by idk the despotic force of glen sather and Mitch mconnel's cigar room hangouts.

What I said about Zibanejad, is that for a player who absolutely is an offensive dynamo, he doesn't do pee wee level stick-handling particularly well and then I wonder aloud why hockey 101 skills seem to deteriorate on this team.

I don't buy that they're just not doing it because they don't have "intangibles." As others have pointed out, they succeed at harder things than what they're bad it. They force themselves to play a lot harder to win than they would have to if they were just....good.

 

[Machinehead]

I mean, who's the "leadership?"

Criticize Trouba's game to your heart's content, but the guy is engaged to the point of detriment at times and doesn't have a off-switch.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

3333333333

I definitely think the team's culture is a huge problem.

What I don't like is that it always defaults back to laying all the blame at the feet of the "country club vets" while glorifying nobodies who look like they're trying hard.

Sorry, but if 35 point plugs like Lafreniere and Chytil are the ideal of how we should be playing, we're missing the point.

Without "floaters" like Kreider and Zibanejad, this board would be hedging their bets on an outside chance at Bedard. I know we all like to wax poetic about giving Laf and Kakko the keys like Hughes got the keys, but Hughes is good. Sorry.

When we were down against Pittsburgh and Carolina, soft vegan soyboy Mika reached into Hell and dragged this team to the ECF by their hair, so respectfully, bullshit.

I've been hearing that it's the country club vets all my life. I would love to see an actual list of the ones that were bad. Poor Eric Lindros who almost led the Wolfpack to the playoffs on nine braincells? Scott Gomez who played his best hockey for the Rangers and then landed us Ryan McDonagh? Brad Richards who was the x-factor in every game 7 he played in?

When I think of the last Rangers team that had the identity everyone craves, I think of Dubinsky and Callahan. Sorry, but I'm already bored. Sick of the grinders. Sick of glorifying it while every talented player is a "coaster." That's what the organization gaslights the fans and themselves into thinking.

I know @EdJovanovski is a nutball, but he's absolutely right today. All everyone does is talk about how we're the Globetrotters and I wish we were the Globetrotters. Some teams just don't have a good roster. Looking at the names on the paper, and looking at the performance, this is the worst offensive team I've ever seen. They're like watching paint dry.

I'm so sick of "the Rangers are too soft." The Rangers are too boring. Have been since the f***ing GAG Line retired.

What do I think is the problem with the culture? The organization is safe. They're safe to the point where it makes you nauseous. More than one offensive defenseman on the same roster?!?!?! Slow down there, cowboy! Promising young prospect? Benched if you make a mistake. Learn to play the right way first. The coach? With the exception of Quinn, always the most established name available. Hell, look at our lines! Safe, safe, and safe. The Kids are a security blanket from last year's playoffs. Kreider-Zibanejad is a security blanket from 2018. Pararnin-Kane is a security blanket from f***ing 2016!!! Lindgren-Fox: security blanket. Everything is safe. Same system, same tactics, same development, same approach, couldn't even rebuild without having a safety valve in Panarin to sell some tickets.

When this inevitably creates and entire roster of Taylor Pyatt's and maybe Brandon Dubinsky's on a good day, the Rangers go out and add the talent they don't have an expect them too freelance the Rangers out of the hole the Rangers dug, with no offensive gameplan because offense is unsafe.

And then we have the audacity to be mad when the talented players look ineffective and slow, get caught out of position, and have to force things on an organization that has been playing chip and chase Nyquil hockey since the 80's.

The 2011-12 team had that "identity" because they went all in on caveman hockey, and I guess that was better in some respects, although that team got absolutely f***ED by the Devils, again, sorry.

Other than that the, Rangers have been trying to super-glue talented players onto an organization that wants to play no-forward-passes 6v6 shinny FOR DECADES, and we blame the talent instead of the cowards running the team.

They want to he the Bruins really bad but aren't very successful at it.

 

[Machinehead]

They want to he the Bruins really bad but aren't very successful at it.

The Bruins had to run out and get Garnet Hathaway and Tyler Bertuzzi because they're soft.

And you know what? I'll give the Bruins credit. Those guys are two good checkers who can actually play.

It's almost as if you should prioritize talent and add intangibles if you need it, instead of doing it in reverse like the Rangers.

 

[Machinehead]

This team, big picture (scoring more goals than their opponent), probably isn't good enough.

What intangibles players are you adding that makes it better?

They did it last year with Reaves and they were worse minus Igor's Vezina performance.

They need to be a better hockey team. It's very f***ing tangible.

 

[egelband]

How do we make it possible to resign all of our RFAs

Chytil
Lafreniere
Miller

Do Miller and Laf get a two year bridge?

Also can we sign Kane say 1 year at like 4 million and start him on LTIR post surgery and accumulate enough cap space to add him half way through the season?

Surgery?

 

[TheDirtyH]

I'm responding to you the way I am, because -and I'm all ears if I'm wrong, explain it to me- I feel like what you're saying is just grit but you're saying it in a way that it doesn't sound like grit.

To me "engagement and awareness" is just "we're not doing the little things" and #TheVets in a nicer package.

We're not doing the big things. We're not scoring. Every forwards comes here and gets worse.

It's statistical impossibility at this point that it's just ALL of the forwards not engaging of their own volition.

If you wanna tell me it's the coach, we can talk about that. Certain aspects of the culture? Agree with that. Holes in the roster as far as doing particular skills? All ears.

You said intangibles and leadership, and then talked about the top two lines phoning it in yesterday. Tell me where that's not the tired old "country club" narrative. Tell me what I'm missing.

What I said about Zibanejad, is that for a player who absolutely is an offensive dynamo, he doesn't do pee wee level stick-handling particularly well and then I wonder aloud why hockey 101 skills seem to deteriorate on this team.

I don't buy that they're just not doing it because they don't have "intangibles." As others have pointed out, they succeed at harder things than what they're bad it. They force themselves to play a lot harder to win than they would have to if they were just....good.

Yes you do wonder aloud about things often. You don't often interrogate those questions beyond the aid of data which leaves you as befuddled as you are. It is grit I'm talking about. It is intangibles. But seriously, if youre not willing to explore what that might mean or how it might offer you something towards the questions you have, don't bother replying to me.

I'm sorry if my criticisms remind you of someone else, but if they strike you as belonging to older complaints by others, they just might, and those complaints might just have some truth to them.

You seem to insist that what I'm doing is laying out nebulous buzzwords, but of the two of us, I'm the only one describing anything I'm actually seeing happen. "We don't score," "forwards get worse here," the defense can't make a pass, zibanejad can't stick handle, and no offensive forward ever has ever played with a degree of determination different than all the ones that came here: top examples "the world's most talented grinder" Sidney Crosby, the last art ross winner to be suspended in the playoffs, and the guy on the avalanche who learned how to play center in a day.

I'm not close enough (none of us are) to accurately diagnose the why here, as far as coaching, management, etc. All we can go off is what we see. If you don't like my takes, agree to disagree, leave them be, or actually talk about them with me to see if MAYBE there's something there you're not considering yourself and MAYBE you'd like to try.

If you'd chosen the latter you might've realized at some point that I'm describing something much closer to "Hathaway and Bertuzzi" than "Reaves" when I say intangibles. You would've noted a difference between Bergeron and Dubinsky that doesn't just render Bergeron his own separate universe, sent Dubinsky to the shadow realm of "grit", and left every other effective offensive player in the league in the category of they don't give a f*** about anything except putting up points.

 

[Machinehead]

Yes you do wonder aloud about things often. You don't often interrogate those questions beyond the aid of data which leaves you as befuddled as you are. It is grit I'm talking about. It is intangibles. But seriously, if youre not willing to explore what that might mean or how it might offer you something towards the questions you have, don't bother replying to me.

I'm sorry if my criticisms remind you of someone else, but if they strike you as belonging to older complaints by others, they just might, and those complaints might just have some truth to them.

You seem to insist that what I'm doing is laying out nebulous buzzwords, but of the two of us, I'm the only one describing anything I'm actually seeing happen. "We don't score," "forwards get worse here," the defense can't make a pass, zibanejad can't stick handle, and no offensive forward ever has ever played with a degree of determination different than all the ones that came here: top examples "the world's most talented grinder" Sidney Crosby, the last art ross winner to be suspended in the playoffs, and the guy on the avalanche who learned how to play center in a day.

I'm not close enough (none of us are) to accurately diagnose the why here, as far as coaching, management, etc. All we can go off is what we see. If you don't like my takes, agree to disagree, leave them be, or actually talk about them with me to see if MAYBE there's something there you're not considering yourself and MAYBE you'd like to try.

If you'd chosen the latter you might've realized at some point that I'm describing something much closer to "Hathaway and Bertuzzi" than "Reaves" when I say intangibles. You would've noted a difference between Bergeron and Dubinsky that doesn't just render Bergeron his own separate universe, sent Dubinsky to the shadow realm of "grit", and left every other effective offensive player in the league in the category of they don't give a f*** about anything except putting up points.

I just wanted you to admit it, Jesus Christmas.

Most star players heavily prioritize offense. It's only a discussion on here and a norm for every other team. Kucherov is a try-hard because he got suspended? I mean, that's nice. He's a 9th percentile player defensively. And yes, I'm interrogating that point with the aid of data. Because that's only possible if you 1) can't skate (he certainly can) or 2) don't give a flying f*** about backchecking. Rantanen is 27th percentile (Selke candidate!) which is much, much better than his teammate Nathan MacKinnon. Ovechkin is literally 0th percentile.

I know you're not talking about Reaves, but if you think Hathaway and Bertuzzi are fixing this team that can't complete a pass, I don't know what to say. Agree to disagree? Sure? You're right, it's probably not worth it at that point.

What am I gonna do? Change your mind?

This is the hill people choose to die on because I guess "not being determined enough" is easier than admitting ineptitude.

Like, I guess just don't take it personally that I don't really entertain it. That's a reflection on the organization. They don't care about offense. They can't develop it. That's why they sign it and add it at the deadline when most teams are adding a depth guy here and a little bit of jam there (which is fine when you have the necessities down).

Personally, I think their abject failure at developing talent has to do with their raging hard on for nebulous f***ing nonsense, that's just my own assessment of the organization. So it is bit triggering to read about adding good 4th liners and Panarin trying harder when a consensus 1OA can't put up 2 points per 60.

 

[Machinehead]

Every top line player but Bergeron sucks at defense is my new thing now BTW.

It honestly explains why every game ends 6-4 except Rangers games.

The culture of the league has changed.

 

[TheDirtyH]

I just wanted you to admit it, Jesus Christmas.

Most star players heavily prioritize offense. It's only a discussion on here and a norm for every other team. Kucherov is a try-hard because he got suspended? I mean, that's nice. He's a 9th percentile player defensively. And yes, I'm interrogating that point with the aid of data. Because that's only possible if you 1) can't skate (he certainly can) or 2) don't give a flying f*** about backchecking. Rantanen is 27th percentile (Selke candidate!) which is much, much better than his teammate Nathan MacKinnon. Ovechkin is literally 0th percentile.

I know you're not talking about Reaves, but if you think Hathaway and Bertuzzi are fixing this team that can't complete a pass, I don't know what to say. Agree to disagree? Sure? You're right, it's probably not worth it at that point.

What am I gonna do? Change your mind?

This is the hill people choose to die on because I guess "not being determined enough" is easier than admitting ineptitude.

Like, I guess just don't take it personally that I don't really entertain it. That's a reflection on the organization. They don't care about offense. They can't develop it. That's why they sign it and add it at the deadline when most teams are adding a depth guy here and a little bit of jam there (which is fine when you have the necessities down).

Personally, I think their abject failure at developing talent has to do with their raging hard on for nebulous f***ing nonsense, that's just my own assessment of the organization. So it is bit triggering to read about adding good 4th liners and Panarin trying harder when a consensus 1OA can't put up 2 points per 60.

Admit what? I started by saying it was intangibles. And I seriously have no idea where I've mentioned anything about adding any 'types' of players. The longer this has gone on, the less I have a clue what it is you've taken issue with in my posts and the less I see anything postulated in response to anything I've said. I believe that what I'm talking about is directly related to why our team struggles to score, and specifically our top players. Kucherov may not be sterling defensively but he BY THE DATA makes a shit ton more happen on offense for his team than Panarin.

I won't take it personally that I can't change your mind. Maybe try not to get triggered any time someone doesn't talk about something that a statistic can't encapsulate.

I'm gonna stop now because generally we have good conversation and I don't like arguing generally. I'll just point out that I put a good amount of effort into a post where I recorded, and provided screen caps of a shift trying to help illustrate what my points were, and notably, it is seemingly the only post of mine you've had nothing to say about.

 

[Machinehead]

Admit what? I started by saying it was intangibles. And I seriously have no idea where I've mentioned anything about adding any 'types' of players. The longer this has gone on, the less I have a clue what it is you've taken issue with in my posts and the less I see anything postulated in response to anything I've said. I believe that what I'm talking about is directly related to why our team struggles to score, and specifically our top players. Kucherov may not be sterling defensively but he BY THE DATA makes a shit ton more happen on offense for his team than Panarin.

I won't take it personally that I can't change your mind. Maybe try not to get triggered any time someone doesn't talk about something that a statistic can't encapsulate.

I'm gonna stop now because generally we have good conversation and I don't like arguing generally. I'll just point out that I put a good amount of effort into a post where I recorded, and provided screen caps of a shift trying to help illustrate what my points were, and notably, it is seemingly the only post of mine you've had nothing to say about.

Ok, forget about that.

Let me focus on the caps you posted. Not to be dismissive, but for the sake of brevity, the theme is taking away space.

They made the extra strides, we didn't. I get that.

I think an intervening variable here is that they moved the puck out of the D-zone and through the neutral zone like it's breathing and we do that like it's writing a classical composition on a ukulele.

Especially yesterday! We could have the debate with our normal lineup on where the blame lies. The defense we iced yesterday couldn't get the puck to our forwards if they stamped it and got expedited shipping on Amazon.

 

[Kravtsov420]

I watch NYR's games and the other games around the league, and there's nothing stylistically wrong with how we play the game or generate offense.

90% of the issue this season has been the transition game which has been the worst I've seen from the team since they went on that 23 game winless streak against the Devils at the beginning of the century. Once we're steadily in the offensive zone with possession or in the defensive zone defending, we're a good team. But when it comes to getting from zone to zone safely, that's our issue.

They don’t move their legs. They make passes in a stationary position.

I’ve never seen a team that skates towards their own goalie more than us. Disgusts me

 

[TheDirtyH]

Ok, forget about that.

Let me focus on the caps you posted. Not to be dismissive, but for the sake of brevity, the theme is taking away space.

They made the extra strides, we didn't. I get that.

I think an intervening variable here is that they moved the puck out of the D-zone and through the neutral zone like it's breathing and we do that like it's writing a classical composition on a ukulele.

Especially yesterday! We could have the debate with our normal lineup on where the blame lies. The defense we iced yesterday couldn't get the puck to our forwards if they stamped it and got expedited shipping on Amazon.

I don't disagree with you that our defensemen were and are a weakness, but not even fox could make a pass yesterday. What's the intervening variable there?

They moved the puck out of the dzone and through the neutral zone so easily because 1) Panarin once again gave the puck away with a dumb pass, 2) he started watching the game happen until 3) he was too deep for no reason doing nothing to intercept a pass that would've been right in his stick if he was ONE stride ahead of where he was, 4) Kane decided randomly to switch from staying high as F3 to pinch on Lindholm, 5) pinching for Kane meant turning to kind of face Lindholm and hold his stick out with one hand away from the pass Lindholm was obviously looking to make, and 6) because nobody was therefore even close to the two forwards leaving the zone with speed against our VERY SLOW defensemen.

Our transition struggles much of the time bc of what ensues directly after the last screen cap I posted. Boston forechecked us into the ground, our guys were wiped, and after a while shift in our end, they finally get a chance to get off the ice, not up it.

It wouldn't take much for Panarin to have tried to delay further and either tie the puck up on the boards or pass to an area behind the defense for trochek rather than pass essentially to Bergeron. Just like it wouldn't have taken much for Panarin to intercept or at least slow and disrupt lindholms pass to debrusk. It would've taken even less for Kane to stay high and give his defensemen some support so that they might consider stepping up on debrusk or Marchand. And if they'd done any of those things, who knows???!? Maybe they would've gotten a f***ing shot off (generated offense).

 

[Synergy27]

Just look at the difference in one shift here between Bergeron-Marchand-Debrusk and Panarin-Trocheck-Kane.

First as we enter the zone:
View attachment 663809
Bergeron, as soon as he saw Trocheck coming up the center ice with the puck and with speed, took two extra strides to close on him by the time Panarin crossed the blueline with the puck. Marchand and Debrusk both kept the feet moving to stay close in formation.

Panarin makes a worthless pass to Trocheck who is smothered and stripped by Bergeron. Bergeron locks up Trocheck's stick as his defenseman corrals the puck towards the corner. Paranin watches at a standstill, gliding towards the three of them aimlessly. The Bruins defensemen settles the puck, Bergeron releases Trocheck and makes his stick clearly available for a short shuttle behind the net:
View attachment 663810
Trocheck and Pararin follow Bergeron around the net with wide, slow turns. Kane slowly dips back up high. Bergeron gives the pass to Lindholm at the halfwall who has plenty of time to see Debrusk cutting towards him and he slides an easy outlet past Panarin and Kane who are upright, with their sticks lazily hanging at their sides.

View attachment 663814

Debrusk takes two strides to completely separate from the 3 Ranger forwards who watch him go. Marchand and he cut in opposite directions to back off the Rangers defense who need to cover for the possibility of a drop pass and then a cross ice play. And as they reach the goal line, here's our coverage (remember to compare with the first clip!):
View attachment 663819

Bruins have abundantly more time and space, and almost all of it is to do with what's (not) happening behind them. The Rangers forwards glide back over the blueline, Debrusk challenges his man one on one before rimming it around to the other side. His team gets a change, our forwards have run into our defensemen, and another bullshit sequence in our zone is ready to go.

Comparing Panarin and Kane to Bergeron when it comes to defense is like comparing the expired ground beef to a prime filet mignon.

 

[Synergy27]

Is it possible that our problems are a lot simpler than you guys make them out to be? I see a team that creates a ton of chances despite not playing the way that I’d prefer they play. But I also see a team that is just flat out bad at shooting the puck.

Mika has a good shot that we rarely get to see when not on the PP.

Tarasenko has a good shot that he was afraid to use until two games ago. Let’s hope that continues.

Everyone else? There’s a reason why these guys try to pass the puck into the net and there’s a reason why it doesn’t work.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Is it possible that our problems are a lot simpler than you guys make them out to be? I see a team that creates a ton of chances despite not playing the way that I’d prefer they play. But I also see a team that is just flat out bad at shooting the puck.

Mika has a good shot that we rarely get to see when not on the PP.

Tarasenko has a good shot that he was afraid to use until two games ago. Let’s hope that continues.

Everyone else? There’s a reason why these guys try to pass the puck into the net and there’s a reason why it doesn’t work.

They're 13th in the league in Sh% so that kind of bunks that theory.

Not amazing, but hardly bad at shooting. This is with really poor luck years for guys like Trocheck and Kreider.

 

[KOVALEV022473]

They're 13th in the league in Sh% so that kind of bunks that theory.

Not amazing, but hardly bad at shooting. This is with really poor luck years for guys like Trocheck and Kreider.

Both can be true at the same time. The vast majority of the players on this team think pass first instead of shoot. It’s a problem, and it has to change, or we are going nowhere.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Both can be true at the same time. The vast majority of the players on this team think pass first instead of shoot. It’s a problem and it has to change, or we are going nowhere.

They aren’t a poor shooting team. When they shoot they have decent results.

If the conversation is they pass up too many shots then yeah, I agree with that.

 

[Clark Kellogg]

Kane>>>Copp.
Tarasenko>>>Vatrano
Motte = Motte
Vesey>>>Reaves
Mikkola>>>Braun

The only question that will matter come playoff time is Shesterkin 22/23 = to or >>> than Shesterkin 21/22?

 

[KOVALEV022473]

They aren’t a poor shooting team. When they shoot they have decent results.

If the conversation is they pass up too many shots then yeah, I agree with that.

I’m pretty sure that’s what Synergy was saying. Although, he could have worded it better.

 

[Kravtsov420]

They aren’t a poor shooting team. When they shoot they have decent results.

If the conversation is they pass up too many shots then yeah, I agree with that.

I also dont think we’re good at getting open space and finding a spot to shoot is an issue. We don’t get in the slot.

 

[Dijock94]

Surgery?

His hip I thought he was suppose to be getting off-season surgery

 

[Synergy27]

They aren’t a poor shooting team. When they shoot they have decent results.

If the conversation is they pass up too many shots then yeah, I agree with that.

The conversation to me is more about missed nets and chest snipes. I don’t have stats to compare those events to other teams. Does anyone track a shooting percentage stat that counts missed nets in the denominator? I think that’d be interesting.

 

[egelband]

Is it possible that our problems are a lot simpler than you guys make them out to be? I see a team that creates a ton of chances despite not playing the way that I’d prefer they play. But I also see a team that is just flat out bad at shooting the puck.

Mika has a good shot that we rarely get to see when not on the PP.

Tarasenko has a good shot that he was afraid to use until two games ago. Let’s hope that continues.

Everyone else? There’s a reason why these guys try to pass the puck into the net and there’s a reason why it doesn’t work.

Yes. You hit it on the head. The team is playing shitty now for many reasons. It’s not a ‘bad system’ and the players are ‘slow’. The team is out-of-synch and as a result they look bad. When (I am optimistic) they get some rest and get on the same page I think we’ll see a night-and-day improvement.
I do agree with @TheDirtyH that the overall defensive intensity is lacking too. And I want to see the team attack the net a lot more consistently to give the offense another level.
But really I don’t think it’s much more complicated than they’re playing tired, short-handed, and overall, poorly right now. It can turn around quick and I think it will.

His hip I thought he was suppose to be getting off-season surgery

I hadn’t heard that. If so, I would think its not a situation that would lead to LTIR for the season but I have no idea.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

The conversation to me is more about missed nets and chest snipes. I don’t have stats to compare those events to other teams. Does anyone track a shooting percentage stat that counts missed nets in the denominator? I think that’d be interesting.

If anyone has them I’d like to see them too but I can guarantee that they’re pretty much the same across the board aside from a few outliers in either direction.

We alllll fall into this confirmation bias because well, we watch this team more than we watch others.