Speculation: Roster Building Thread II (2022-23): The Puck is Prepared to be Mounted

[McRanger92]

The Buchnevich trade wouldn't be criticized as much if:

- The cap space freed up was actually used that off-season, or
- The return was better than a 4th liner and a 2nd round pick, or
- The top-6 spot that opened up wasn't given to Blais/Goodrow/Hunt but to a top prospect instead

Pick one. Just one of these would have alieviated a lot of the criticism of this trade.

The top 6 spot has been given to Kakko/Lafreniere/Kravtsov at different points, the problem is none of them have produced there consistently. Drury took a chance with this trade hoping Blais could give them something they didnt have, and even one of our prospects actually took a step forward. Unfortunately, Blais' injury seems to have derailed his career and Kakko/Laf havent shown any consistent scoring ability (Kakko is still a very effective player besides that, which is a disappointment but is still solid)

That being said, Id trade any of the 3 for Buchnevich without hesitation

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

The top 6 spot has been given to Kakko/Lafreniere/Kravtsov at different points, the problem is none of them have produced there consistently. Drury took a chance with this trade hoping Blais could give them something they didnt have, and even one of our prospects actually took a step forward. Unfortunately, Blais' injury seems to have derailed his career and Kakko/Laf havent shown any consistent scoring ability (Kakko is still a very effective player besides that, which is a disappointment but is still solid)

That being said, Id trade any of the 3 for Buchnevich without hesitation

I am not talking about 5-7 games before they get demoted. I am talking about consistently giving that top-spot to a top-prospect instead of a bottom-six player with no upside.

None of them produced? Neither did the guys on their lines, aside from Fox.

Even strength points in 2022-23:

Panarin 10
Zibanejad 8
Chytil 8
Lafrenière 7
Kakko 7
Kreider 7
Trocheck 6

I mean... WHAT THE ACTUAL f***?!

Are we really going to hold Kakko and Lafrenière accountable but completely ignore that they're not even being outscored by the other top-6 players at even strength?

 

[McRanger92]

I am not talking about 5-7 games before they get demoted. I am talking about consistently giving that top-spot to a top-prospect instead of a bottom-six player with no upside.

None of them produced? Neither did the guys on their lines, aside from Fox.

Even strength points in 2022-23:

Panarin 10
Zibanejad 8
Chytil 8
Lafrenière 7
Kakko 7
Kreider 7
Trocheck 6

I mean... WHAT THE ACTUAL f***?!

Are we really going to hold Kakko and Lafrenière accountable but completely ignore that they're not even being outscored by the other top-6 players at even strength?

The veteran forwards need to be better 5v5 but do powerplay points somehow count less all of a sudden?

They get discounted when talking about our top players, but if the prospects were producing on the powerplay everyone would be fawning over them. I'm probably just dumb but it doesn't compute to me.

 

[SA16]

I am not talking about 5-7 games before they get demoted. I am talking about consistently giving that top-spot to a top-prospect instead of a bottom-six player with no upside.

None of them produced? Neither did the guys on their lines, aside from Fox.

Even strength points in 2022-23:

Panarin 10
Zibanejad 8
Chytil 8
Lafrenière 7
Kakko 7
Kreider 7
Trocheck 6

I mean... WHAT THE ACTUAL f***?!

Are we really going to hold Kakko and Lafrenière accountable but completely ignore that they're not even being outscored by the other top-6 players at even strength?

I don't know. Are we going to pretend that Chytil is an elite 5v5 scorer and Zibanejad is a bad one because Chytil has a 10.5 on ice shooting percentage and Zibanejad 4.4?

I don't understand the complaint regardless. Lafreniere is 2nd on the team in 5v5 ice time. Kakko is 4th. Do you want them to get Connor McDavid 5v5 usage?

I thought people wanted "The Kid Line." Now that "The Kid Line" is back the complaint shifts to that they're not in the top six. Predictable as can be.

 

[IDvsEGO]

I am not talking about 5-7 games before they get demoted. I am talking about consistently giving that top-spot to a top-prospect instead of a bottom-six player with no upside.

None of them produced? Neither did the guys on their lines, aside from Fox.

Even strength points in 2022-23:

Panarin 10
Zibanejad 8
Chytil 8
Lafrenière 7
Kakko 7
Kreider 7
Trocheck 6

I mean... WHAT THE ACTUAL f***?!

Are we really going to hold Kakko and Lafrenière accountable but completely ignore that they're not even being outscored by the other top-6 players at even strength?

People want a narrative.
The kids are bad, or that they haven't developed is a really easy one.

Rather than, The lines arent clicking in general. The thing I dont see posted here is how we misfire on SO many passes. This is an NHL team and yet they turn it over via bad passing more than my Mens league team.

Trocheck and panarin dont click at all. Trocheck wants to carry up with speed, panarin wants to carry it up with his own pace, and they both just want laf to drive to the net, which isn't where he needs to be.

Mika and CK let kakko do alot of the dirty work, and then when he did give them the puck with time and space, they flubbed it way too much.


The kids together aren't bad, but they need to get hot. a couple laf or kakko goals will really pick up the line significantly.

Kratsov sitting in the box is really annoying. If he's not healthy put him on LTIR, if he is, we need to see what he can do.

The veteran forwards need to be better 5v5 but do powerplay points somehow count less all of a sudden?

They get discounted when talking about our top players, but if the prospects were producing on the powerplay everyone would be fawning over them. I'm probably just dumb but it doesn't compute to me.

5v5 points are harder to score. Its been the argument for why the kids haven't been developing as quickly as the other top picks in their draft class.
They dont get easy time to score. So you compare 5v5 scoring rates since thats really the only ice time they get.

The kids get less than a minute a game at 5v4, the pp1 gets something like 4:35 per game at the man advantage. You have to realistically eliminate pp points from the discussion because its so lopsided.

 

[SA16]

People want a narrative.
The kids are bad, or that they haven't developed is a really easy one.

Rather than, The lines arent clicking in general. The thing I dont see posted here is how we misfire on SO many passes. This is an NHL team and yet they turn it over via bad passing more than my Mens league team.

Trocheck and panarin dont click at all. Trocheck wants to carry up with speed, panarin wants to carry it up with his own pace, and they both just want laf to drive to the net, which isn't where he needs to be.

Mika and CK let kakko do alot of the dirty work, and then when he did give them the puck with time and space, they flubbed it way too much.


The kids together aren't bad, but they need to get hot. a couple laf or kakko goals will really pick up the line significantly.

Kratsov sitting in the box is really annoying. If he's not healthy put him on LTIR, if he is, we need to see what he can do.


5v5 points are harder to score. Its been the argument for why the kids haven't been developing as quickly as the other top picks in their draft class.
They dont get easy time to score. So you compare 5v5 scoring rates since thats really the only ice time they get.

The kids get less than a minute a game at 5v4, the pp1 gets something like 4:35 per game at the man advantage. You have to realistically eliminate pp points from the discussion because its so lopsided.

And yet there are 11 teams with more giveaways/game than them. This is what happens when you watch one team all the time and others sparingly. Easy to notice it for the one time but you don't notice everyone does it.

 

[bhamill]

Ryan Reaves has five fights as a Ranger all against other tough guys. How is he possibly preventing other players from taking liberties? Why would they care he's in the game? They're not on the ice at the same time.

This was the beauty of Joey Kocur. He did not give a f***. You ran over our goalie, Joey will run over yours twice as hard. You took a shot at our skill player? Joey is going to take one at yours. You are not a heavy but you took a shot at someone? Joey will take a shot at you. And if you want to challenge him for it? Nobody would be happier than Kocur.
Believe me goalies and star players did NOT want their teammates doing that shit when Kocur was on the other team. And that had true deterrent power. Reaves pays too much attention to "the code," and teams take advantage of it. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE the dude, but it does make him less effective as a deterrent.

 

[IDvsEGO]

And yet there are 11 teams with more giveaways/game than them. This is what happens when you watch one team all the time and others sparingly. Easy to notice it for the one time but you don't notice everyone does it.

What teams have more? How many of those are realistically going to be a playoff team?

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

The veteran forwards need to be better 5v5 but do powerplay points somehow count less all of a sudden?

They get discounted when talking about our top players, but if the prospects were producing on the powerplay everyone would be fawning over them. I'm probably just dumb but it doesn't compute to me.

When we are talking about who needs to be in the top-6, yeah... I don't really care about PP numbers.

We are talking about even strength here.

 

[bhamill]

Islanders developed Martin, Rangers should develop their own tough guy. wish someone like Orr was on waivers. Someone on the cusp worth a risk for a half the cap hit.

Any chance Red Wings trade someone like Givani Smith?

He is a guy that might go through waivers. Can replace Reaves at half the cost. only 24.

Givani Smith Hockey Stats and Profile at hockeydb.com

Statistics of Givani Smith, a hockey player from Toronto, ONT born Feb 27 1998 who was active from 2014 to 2025.

www.hockeydb.com

It'll be a couple/few years but Cuylle could be that on the third line, he lit up some dude who challenged him last week, and Rempe at 20 just had a monster tilt with McIlrath maybe the best true heavy in the AHL and held his own. He may be a fourth line option for that role.

 

[kovazub94]

….The Buchnevich trade wouldn't be criticized as much if:

- The cap space freed up was actually used that off-season, or
- The return was better than a 4th liner and a 2nd round pick, or
- The top-6 spot that opened up wasn't given to Blais/Goodrow/Hunt but to a top prospect instead

Pick one. Just one of these would have alieviated a lot of the criticism of this trade.

- There’s been only one offseason since Buchnevich trade so unless said critic has a brain / memory of a headless chicken (don’t mean you) it’s pretty clear where money went since there was only one signing of a proximal magnitude (Trocheck).
- Spending cap $$ on a center also relates to your third bullet where Buchnevich lineup spot could be filled with a number of options like Lafreniere, Kakko (or Kravtsov but that’s on Vitali for not being able to stay healthy) whom you don’t mention. As of today they are good options for these spots and got long stretches of time there, and it’s coach’s decision to play all kids together as a reward and to the benefit of overall team success - not because they are not options as you’re implying.
- The poor return argument is really the only one that supportable and even then it’s partially due to a bad luck where Blais got a very significant injury that caused him almost the whole last season and that he’s still finding his game.

 

[tomobson]

I don't know. Are we going to pretend that Chytil is an elite 5v5 scorer and Zibanejad is a bad one because Chytil has a 10.5 on ice shooting percentage and Zibanejad 4.4?

I don't understand the complaint regardless. Lafreniere is 2nd on the team in 5v5 ice time. Kakko is 4th. Do you want them to get Connor McDavid 5v5 usage?

I thought people wanted "The Kid Line." Now that "The Kid Line" is back the complaint shifts to that they're not in the top six. Predictable as can be.

Chytil is a decent shooter and has developed a better sense to find the open space. He'd probably be good on one of the wings in the top six but that totally leaves the bottom six with no bite. The top six needs a shooter.

 

[McRanger92]

When we are talking about who needs to be in the top-6, yeah... I don't really care about PP numbers.

We are talking about even strength here.

Thats fair. The PP discussion was more about the overall discussion and not really directed at you. I just find it hard to believe fans genuinely still believe the team would be better off with worse players playing on the Powerplay. The issue with the PP isnt personnel, its that Panarin (and to a lesser extent Fox) dont shoot so they are easier to defend. Anyone sensing a pattern?

 

[bleedblue94]

13 points is tied for 51st among centers in the NHL.

32 teams in the league. That's 64 top-6 centers. He's maybe in the lower echelon of 2nd line centers but he's very much producing like a 2nd line center.



The Buchnevich trade wouldn't be criticized as much if:

- The cap space freed up was actually used that off-season, or
- The return was better than a 4th liner and a 2nd round pick, or
- The top-6 spot that opened up wasn't given to Blais/Goodrow/Hunt but to a top prospect instead

Pick one. Just one of these would have alieviated a lot of the criticism of this trade.

again, 6 even strength points. people say the kids' production would go up if they had more pp time or were on pp1 so we should accept that their production is lower bc it is only 5v5 production, this being the case then the same standard should be used on torcheck where as we cant just look at 13 points in 19 games as great production without understanding that more than half those points are pp points. you cannot use one standard to defend laffy and kakko's lack of production and then flip the standard 180 to defend torchek. that is known as a contradiction...

 

[bhamill]

The veteran forwards need to be better 5v5 but do powerplay points somehow count less all of a sudden?

They get discounted when talking about our top players, but if the prospects were producing on the powerplay everyone would be fawning over them. I'm probably just dumb but it doesn't compute to me.

Basically it's the fact that it's hard to compare stats between players that are getting PP time and those that aren't. To be getting PP time is a massive upgrade in circumstances. So when young players are being bagged on for not having great stats, its a legit point to make. And not just for the strict number of PP points a young player gets, but what it does for confidence and how it takes pressure off. How it allows the kid to play at 5v5. Everyone fawns over Stutzle, and rightly so, very good player. Stutzle had 16 EV goals and 6 PP goals last year, 22 total. Apply that ratio to Laf and he'd have had like 26 goals last year... that makes a big difference in confidence and in taking off the pressure. A 19-20 year old season of 26 goals looks pretty damn good, too. Its a huge upgrade in conditions for quicker development.

I agree it's weird to run a player down for having a lot of their points on the PP. I do agree though that if they don't score much at EV, maybe they don't need to be 1st or 2nd line just because they are 1st PP.

again, 6 even strength points. people say the kids' production would go up if they had more pp time or were on pp1 so we should accept that their production is lower bc it is only 5v5 production, this being the case then the same standard should be used on torcheck where as we cant just look at 13 points in 19 games as great production without understanding that more than half those points are pp points. you cannot use one standard to defend laffy and kakko's lack of production and then flip the standard 180 to defend torchek. that is known as a contradiction...

don't you kind of need to compare to the EV points of the other top 64 centers if this is your rationale? I mean I'm pretty sure a LOT of them rack up a lot of PP points... how is Trocheck special here?

 

[SA16]

What teams have more? How many of those are realistically going to be a playoff team?

Montreal, Toronto, Edmonton, Dallas, Chicago, Tampa, Arizona, Islanders, Ottawa, Calgary

 

[bleedblue94]

Basically it's the fact that it's hard to compare stats between players that are getting PP time and those that aren't. To be getting PP time is a massive upgrade in circumstances. So when young players are being bagged on for not having great stats, its a legit point to make. And not just for the strict number of PP points a young player gets, but what it does for confidence and how it takes pressure off. How it allows the kid to play at 5v5. Everyone fawns over Stutzle, and rightly so, very good player. Stutzle had 16 EV goals and 6 PP goals last year, 22 total. Apply that ratio to Laf and he'd have had like 26 goals last year... that makes a big difference in confidence and in taking off the pressure. A 19-20 year old season of 26 goals looks pretty damn good, too. Its a huge upgrade in conditions for quicker development.

I agree it's weird to run a player down for having a lot of their points on the PP. I do agree though that if they don't score much at EV, maybe they don't need to be 1st or 2nd line just because they are 1st PP.


don't you kind of need to compare to the EV points of the other top 64 centers if this is your rationale? I mean I'm pretty sure a LOT of them rack up a lot of PP points... how is Trocheck special here?

most 2c's are not on pp1 of what should be a top 5 pp in the league.

 

[bleedblue94]

People want a narrative.
The kids are bad, or that they haven't developed is a really easy one.

Rather than, The lines arent clicking in general. The thing I dont see posted here is how we misfire on SO many passes. This is an NHL team and yet they turn it over via bad passing more than my Mens league team.

Trocheck and panarin dont click at all. Trocheck wants to carry up with speed, panarin wants to carry it up with his own pace, and they both just want laf to drive to the net, which isn't where he needs to be.

Mika and CK let kakko do alot of the dirty work, and then when he did give them the puck with time and space, they flubbed it way too much.


The kids together aren't bad, but they need to get hot. a couple laf or kakko goals will really pick up the line significantly.

Kratsov sitting in the box is really annoying. If he's not healthy put him on LTIR, if he is, we need to see what he can do.


5v5 points are harder to score. Its been the argument for why the kids haven't been developing as quickly as the other top picks in their draft class.
They dont get easy time to score. So you compare 5v5 scoring rates since thats really the only ice time they get.

The kids get less than a minute a game at 5v4, the pp1 gets something like 4:35 per game at the man advantage. You have to realistically eliminate pp points from the discussion because its so lopsided.

not only that, but there is a certain confidence that skill players get from handling the puck, from getting touches. the main time that happens is on a powerplay. when you deny those touches that can also stifle individual confidence at this level and for a young skilled player, any player for that matter, confidence is huge. i mean watch when pp2 gets out there for their token 25 seconds, the guys are handling the puck like a grenade most of the time. even chytil cannot do a simple bump back without firing it like an rpg half the time.

 

[NYRFAN218]

18. Ryan Reaves
Right Wing, New York Rangers
Age: 35|
Stats: 12 GP, 0 G, 0 A, 0 Pts
Contract: Pending UFA, $1.75 million AAV
Scoop: Reaves has been a healthy scratch in four of the Rangers’ last five games. The belief is New York isn’t looking for much in return to gain the salary cap flexibility. And there are more than just a couple teams (Edmonton?) looking for a little size and bite in their bottom-six forward group.

Trade Targets: Let the bidding begin for Vancouver Canucks’ Bo Horvat

Legendary Blackhawks Patrick Kane and Jonathan Toews also crack the list of big-name players expected to attract major interest leading...

www.dailyfaceoff.com

 

[duhmetreE]

We need a Vatrano in the top6, as in a pure finisher. I was hoping Laffy would be that guy this season.

Hopefully Othmann is soon.

 

[pld459666]

The veteran forwards need to be better 5v5 but do powerplay points somehow count less all of a sudden?

They get discounted when talking about our top players, but if the prospects were producing on the powerplay everyone would be fawning over them. I'm probably just dumb but it doesn't compute to me.

They get discounted because the kids get next to nothing on the PP in terms of TOI.

When assessing production fairly, the one true measuring stick is ES production.

I wonder how it looks when viewing ES scoring per 60 minutes.

I assume the kids may look a little better than the vets

 

[IDvsEGO]

We need a Vatrano in the top6, as in a pure finisher. I was hoping Laffy would be that guy this season.

Hopefully Othmann is soon.

I mean Laf is more of a pure playmaker than a finisher, but they have conditioned him to just sit in the front of the net when he plays w Panarin. He should be in that left bumper position. That’s why him as a rw is tough.

 

[pld459666]

And yet there are 11 teams with more giveaways/game than them. This is what happens when you watch one team all the time and others sparingly. Easy to notice it for the one time but you don't notice everyone does it.

11 teams is not a lot

We are in the bottom half in tjat stat.

Your statement while factually correct is putting lipstick on a pig

 

[pld459666]

We need a Vatrano in the top6, as in a pure finisher. I was hoping Laffy would be that guy this season.

Hopefully Othmann is soon.

So long as he's not molded into a pass-first, defer to the vet passenger.

 

[duhmetreE]

I mean Laf is more of a pure playmaker than a finisher, but they have conditioned him to just sit in the front of the net when he plays w Panarin. He should be in that left bumper position. That’s why him as a rw is tough.

He's technically both. He was a finisher his 1st year in juniors but then went more into a playmaking role. He's in a similar boat as Panarin imo. They both have shots even though they are known for playmaking.

The team stands to benefit greatly if both put themselves in positions to shoot more. Panarin lives on the left wall. Laffy lives in front of the goalie.

I long for a team that gets to the slot and shoots.