Speculation: Roster Building Thread 2019-20: Part XXVI

[Thirty One]

they got a fair return for Zucc. Remember he sucked for almost an entire Calendar year before turning it on in January.

they gambled on getting 2 1sts. It almost worked.

Talbots deal was fair. The Hagelin one was the one to get upset about.

Talbot's deal was very fair, it's just there was a wave of hysteria beforehand getting our hopes all the way up.

 

[wafflepadsave]

they got a fair return for Zucc. Remember he sucked for almost an entire Calendar year before turning it on in January.

they gambled on getting 2 1sts. It almost worked.

Talbots deal was fair. The Hagelin one was the one to get upset about.

Oh sure. They had us thinking Edmonton’s 1st for Talbot. I would love to see kyrou and a 1st but we would have to take back a contract to help out me is guessing.

 

[SA16]

If Kreider is fine he shouldn't be held out because of this particularly injury but he should already be held out in general because the risk of playing him at this point is too high.

 

[SA16]

Also from LeBrun's article was:
BOS gets: Ondrej Kase
ANA gets: Oskar Steen, 2020 3rd

If that's the price for Kase, I think the Rangers should be in on it.

The Rangers don't have Oskar Steen to trade. They would have to make it a three team deal.

 

[nyr2k2]

If Kreider is fine he shouldn't be held out because of this particularly injury but he should already be held out in general because the risk of playing him at this point is too high.

What's the precedent for holding out a guy for a month when he's healthy? I don't think either the League or the PA would like that, no say nothing of the player.

 

[wafflepadsave]

We should be able to tell how serious the trade partners are when media starts posting team scouts at ranger games.

 

[SA16]

What's the precedent for holding out a guy for a month when he's healthy? I don't think either the League or the PA would like that, no say nothing of the player.

Devils held Hall out early in the season way before the deadline and it took a week to get a deal. And at that time their were discussions about the PA and such and they said it's a team decision and there is nothing they can do.

I don't see the point in playing him at this point when every game there is some risk his trade value goes to zero.

 

[Thirty One]

The Rangers don't have Oskar Steen to trade. They would have to make it a three team deal.

I agree. Oskar Steens is an area or organizational weakness. Why has Gorton not addressed this?

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

What's the precedent for holding out a guy for a month when he's healthy? I don't think either the League or the PA would like that, no say nothing of the player.

I'm okay with giving him the night off just to make sure that there aren't some late developing symptoms that may arise but unless hes on the verge of being moved, he shouldn't sit.

 

[bobbop]

Jordan Kyrou at eliteprospects.com

He is held in high regard and I know nothing about him. His size and Stats seem good...why is he special?

Elite skater. A very intriguing player.

I think Pierre is smoking his underwear on this one but it’s a deal I would definitely make. Kyrou would be a terrific catch.

 

[Ghost of jas]

maybe he is now. In Sarnia OHL he was a C though
Jordan Kyrou at eliteprospects.com

Many players who are wings at the NHL were centers in juniors.

 

[haohmaru]

I am sorry but it only seems like this to you because you obviously don't have insight into how these things work. You are lost after your first mistaken assumption that it has a big impact what Tony D's ask was. In reality Tony D's ask could have been 16m per for 1 year or 2.5m per for 8 years, there was one document presented to him and he could choose between inking that document or go to the KHL almost his entire 20's. His "ask" was completely irrelevant.

Negotiations with players can be divided into two categories post the ELC:
1. When we talk about "leverage" in negotiations this is what is referred to. A player coming of his ELC has very limited leverage. He can only hold out or go and play in Europe or ink whatever offer he gets from his NHL team. There is no other option available. TDA was in that situation. That is not speculation, it is a fact.

2. Once a player gets arbitration rights, he can request arbitration and get what a 3rd party deem is fair for 1-2 years and he can do it until the becomes a UFA at the age of 25 or 27. In this instance, the team has very little leverage. The team cannot force the players hand in any way. It can accept the award, or walk away. But it cannot prevent the player for getting paid fair market value until the player becomes a UFA at the age of 25-27. That is also not speculation, it is a fact.

TDA de facto sorted under the first. It is this opportunity that a GM must take advantage of. And Gorton takes advantage of it for sure, but only to strong arm kids into getting paid nothing for 1-2 years. After that the player gets all the leverage and we are screwed and forced to always trade high value assets for cents on the dollar.

I hope this explains it!

I can also answer all your other arguments, but everyone always complain on that I write so long posts so I try to keep it short. 1. Marner used the little leverage he had, and because he is so good that was enough. He held out, and threatened to hold out the entire season, just like Nylander. Do you think TDA would have forced Gorton's hand and held out for an entire season if Gorton only presented him with a fair 5-6 year deal (say around 4m per)? TDAs wasn't proven, Marner was. 2. What is your point with Ziba, I don't follow? A big advantage for us from Day 1 with Ziba is that he really really really wants to be here, play in NY. It has motivated him off the ice to be devoted enough. It has led to him firing his agent and negotiating his new deal directly with Gorton himself (along with his brother). And just to answer a question nobody have made yet but is sure to come "But oLLa you are lost nobody goes to arbitration why do you talka bout that???" The reason there are so few actual arbitration awards is that it is a very transparent proceeding and everyone knows what the result will be with a marginal margin of error, and hence everyone settle just before it. Fact, not speculation.

People should complain that you're arrogant and condescending instead.

Long winded diatribe above aside, all it takes to blow up your entire argument is Tony DeAngelo and his agent approaching Gorton and simply saying "We are only going to sign a one year deal, period, and we feel we should get $------" Furthermore, because only "one offer" (that we know of) was presented doesn't mean other offers weren't discussed by both parties. As a matter of fact, anyone can submit any arbitrary situation that COULD have happened and it's enough to blow up your "mismanagement" postulation. You're arguing about something you think SHOULD have happened but might never have been on the table for EITHER side. Contracts, like drafts, in retrospect are always a lot easier.

I completely understand the difference between RFA and RFA arbitration eligible contracts, term, term factoring in RFA and UFA years, etc... I really don't need you to explain anything to me to understand that you can still only guess as to what was being discussed during Tony's hold out despite what you say was a no choice situation. Term? $? Neither? Both?

There's nothing that you can "explain" because you weren't in the room, on the calls, privy to either sides position, or anything else. All you can do is speculate with what you have and you might think the Ola DeAngelo Contract Magic Wand Theorem® argument holds water, but it doesn't because you simply don't have enough information and, likely, never will.

You can reply again if you like, but this is where my position begins and ends. I'm not arguing, now, that in retrospect it wouldn't have been nice to wrap him up for 5 years but that's not the argument that I'm making. Furthermore, such a contract would've resulted in another transaction happening because the Rangers simply didn't have the space to do it at the time. Who's gone or who was bought out? Who was traded and who took their spot? It's pointless.

 

[Savant]

Talbots deal was fair. The Hagelin one was the one to get upset about.

I wanted to flip at least one of those guys for Kyle Palmieri. That was one of the two non deals recently that there was a known asset available that I really thought the Rangers needed to be in on. Was furious when the Devils pulled it off. The other was the Mason/Armia to Montreal trade I think two off seasons ago

 

[Matt4776]

Many players who are wings at the NHL were centers in juniors.

Just like the player that Kyrou is being hypothetically traded for.

 

[nyr2k2]

Devils held Hall out early in the season way before the deadline and it took a week to get a deal. And at that time their were discussions about the PA and such and they said it's a team decision and there is nothing they can do.

I don't see the point in playing him at this point when every game there is some risk his trade value goes to zero.

Three weeks is a long time to sit a healthy guy. And the League could do something about it, I'm sure, if they wanted. Just like the NBA did when Pop tried to rest his whole team, and what they do now with the load management crap. Not saying the League would, but I don't think anyone would really approve of sitting someone for three full weeks.

 

[Rangers in 7]

I could see the Blues saying ‘we were in the finals without Kreider’. Maybe the condition is on re-signing.

no guarantees tarasenko plays again this year.....people seem to forget that

 

[Alluckks]

This current Ola rant is almost as bad as his tirade about Shattenkirk’s kid

 

[offdacrossbar]

Most guys would be seriously concussed from the shot he took. But his brain is probably made with a layer of carbon fiber so not surprised he’s out there

or cement

 

[Avery16]

 

[Trxjw]

Kyrou and a 1st for Kreider? I see LeBrun is taking full advantage of weed legalization in Canada.

 

[Ghost of jas]

The one item of note I took out of the LeBrun column was that he said eight teams have informed the Rangers that Kreider is their respective #1 priority. Supply and demand, baby.

 

[Ola]

People should complain that you're arrogant and condescending instead.

Long winded diatribe above aside, all it takes to blow up your entire argument is Tony DeAngelo and his agent approaching Gorton and simply saying "We are only going to sign a one year deal, period, and we feel we should get $------" Furthermore, because only "one offer" (that we know of) was presented doesn't mean other offers weren't discussed by both parties. As a matter of fact, anyone can submit any arbitrary situation that COULD have happened and it's enough to blow up your "mismanagement" postulation. You're arguing about something you think SHOULD have happened but might never have been on the table for EITHER side. Contracts, like drafts, in retrospect are always a lot easier.

I completely understand the difference between RFA and RFA arbitration eligible contracts, term, term factoring in RFA and UFA years, etc... I really don't need you to explain anything to me to understand that you can still only guess as to what was being discussed during Tony's hold out despite what you say was a no choice situation. Term? $? Neither? Both?

There's nothing that you can "explain" because you weren't in the room, on the calls, privy to either sides position, or anything else. All you can do is speculate with what you have and you might think the Ola DeAngelo Contract Magic Wand Theorem® argument holds water, but it doesn't because you simply don't have enough information and, likely, never will.

You can reply again if you like, but this is where my position begins and ends. I'm not arguing, now, that in retrospect it wouldn't have been nice to wrap him up for 5 years but that's not the argument that I'm making. Furthermore, such a contract would've resulted in another transaction happening because the Rangers simply didn't have the space to do it at the time. Who's gone or who was bought out? Who was traded and who took their spot? It's pointless.

I am sorry for being an ahole and I only hope that since it’s so established ppl can take my tirades with a boatload of salt. It’s just my temper that gets me fired up at times.

Anyway, I don’t at all like that excuses that don’t hold up is made for Gorton in this regard because it has been an issue for a long time and many decisions has been made that hasn’t been good for the team, and there is zero accountability for it.

 

[Ola]

This current Ola rant is almost as bad as his tirade about Shattenkirk’s kid

You are just jealous because I am always right.

Look at how other GMs in this league handles these situations. The pattern is pretty clear.

 

[duhmetreE]

I'm all about the Chapman life.

Trade him for Kyrou and a 1st, sign him in the offseason.

Win-win for everyone. STL gets another good shot at the cup, we strengthen our future.

 

[bl02]

Lebrun just on Sirius. Says no contact talks between Rangers and CK and he feels the goalie situation won’t be remedied until the offseason. Would imagine Georgiev might be getting lower offers than JG likes right now