Speculation: Roster Building Thread 2019-20: Part XXVI

[kovazub94]

The misunderstanding of the role Trouba was signed to play, does play, and how it relates to the rest of the D continues to astound me.

I’m much more understanding of blind dislike than those who think they have plausible arguments.

 

[Ola]

Wild have no reason to trade a young player in greenway for Ryan strome and also give up a 2nd round pick. A complete joke

Talk about overrating Greenway. I wonder if you have him mixed up with someone?

Why do you think they gave Zucc that contract? They are paying Suter and Parise a ton for a few more years. They have an OK blueline. Kaprizov is definitely the real thing. They are in no position and their owner want no part in a complete rebuild.

But they have no centers. Koivu and Staal are beyond done. They where too slow 5 years ago.

Where they getting centers from?

BTW, how old is Strome, 25? It’s not like he is 35...

Also, Minny sucks and Greenway is a 4th lineer for them. Let’s not pretend like he is the second coming. I think he is a good fit for us, but...

 

[egelband]

I think Skjei has way more value in the eyes of NHL GMs than us on HFNYR. The list of NYR defensemen who have gone on to excel immediately after leaving makes me nervous about trading him, but he might have a lot more value than people expect. I wouldn’t be surprised if Skjei became a legit #2/3D on the right team.

Absolutely. I think he’s mis-cast as a Two-Way-Do-it-All guy. But he can be a terrific shutdown type paired with a puck carrying defenseman like ADA or Fox. My opinion. I think he can be Top Four in that role.

 

[Mac n Gs]

Skjei will net you a very good forward on a 1:1 swap. You can get a cost controlled Kreider replacement for him.

Any examples of who you had in mind?

 

[Ola]

I understand but it seems a bit nonsensical given why the post was written. Wouldn’t he be more likely candidate for 3rd line wing than Gauthier for instance?

Good question.

Can change it to:
1. Kreider for Jost and a 1st (deadline)
2. Geo for picks
3. Jost to EDM for Pulju
4. Strome to Minny for Greenway +
5. Our 2020 1st (after lottery and if not top) and Nils Lundkvist for Kotka
Greenway-Ziba-Kakko
Panarin-Kotkaniemi-Pulju
Kravy-Chytil-Buch
Lemieux-Howden-xx

Seriously though, a few thoughts and some motives.

I can definitely see Gorton going for something like this. Gorton accomplished so much last summer. I’ve called him out for a few things, but we shouldn’t forget just how much he has managed to get done. The Hayes trade, the Fox trade, the Trouba trade. It’s big moves during a very short period of time.

What is “this” in my scenario?

(a) It’s an overpayment for a kid that (potentially) really fits into what we are trying to build here in NY in Kotkaniemi. It’s basically what he was trying to do when trading up for Newhook or any of the other higher ranked forwards. Kotkaniemi is further along, not 5 years away. Would MTL trade him? Most likely not, but Suzuki has emerged for them. There might be slight openings on a few guys kind of like him, and I could see Gorton trying to push things on those fronts for sure. Who knows who those kids might be. But I think Kotkaniemi illustrates the “type”. And I do think that offer — a 7-12 pick plus Nils — also illustrates how we CAN make a move like that without gutting the farm. We still have RD depth with Keane. We would pick up another 1st in the Kreider trade and surely 4 more top 3 round picks. Buch, Kravy, Lindgren/Hajek and co could also be moved without it turning our world upside down.

(b) Lemieux has been great for us, because we have an opening for him and we really need what he can bring. I think Greenway fits the exact same bill if we trade Kreider. Some seem to think that he is some great blue chip prospect that would cost a ton. It’s not that. He is struggling in Minny and they are talking about potentially moving on from him more or less. They got a LW log-jam and he keeps getting pushed down their line up.

Greenway isn’t the only one out there. I think we are keeping tabs on a few guys like him. And just like with Lemieux, it’s important to remember that these guys that is a great fit at one place doesn’t have to be that somewhere else. It all depends on what a team need. For many teams, someone like Lemieux would bring more of what they already have and not enough of what they need. We have so much puck skill and offensive skill on the back end (doesn’t it feel great to be able to conclude that? ). We can definitely carry someone like that, and especially if Kreider is traded.

(c) We know that Gorton gunned for Pulju before true December 1 deadline. I definitely think he had Fox success in mind and wanted to repeat. I think Panarin definitely could push Pulju over the hill, and darn is that ever kid that — could — end up contributing so much if he just could get into the league and establish a platform that he can build on. A really heavy slapper. Great size. Top speed that is hard to match. That reach. Vision and offensive instincts. You just must be able to find a solid, preferably fast, top 9 option for them and he could be had. Jost might fit that bill, as well as anyone else that Gorton might get his hands on in deals like this.

JMHO.

 

[Hockeyfan200]

Good question.

Can change it to:
1. Kreider for Jost and a 1st (deadline)
2. Geo for picks
3. Jost to EDM for Pulju
4. Strome to Minny for Greenway +
5. Our 2020 1st (after lottery and if not top) and Nils Lundkvist for Kotka
Greenway-Ziba-Kakko
Panarin-Kotkaniemi-Pulju
Kravy-Chytil-Buch
Lemieux-Howden-xx

Seriously though, a few thoughts and some motives.

I can definitely see Gorton going for something like this. Gorton accomplished so much last summer. I’ve called him out for a few things, but we shouldn’t forget just how much he has managed to get done. The Hayes trade, the Fox trade, the Trouba trade. It’s big moves during a very short period of time.

What is “this” in my scenario?

(a) It’s an overpayment for a kid that (potentially) really fits into what we are trying to build here in NY in Kotkaniemi. It’s basically what he was trying to do when trading up for Newhook or any of the other higher ranked forwards. Kotkaniemi is further along, not 5 years away. Would MTL trade him? Most likely not, but Suzuki has emerged for them. There might be slight openings on a few guys kind of like him, and I could see Gorton trying to push things on those fronts for sure. Who knows who those kids might be. But I think Kotkaniemi illustrates the “type”. And I do think that offer — a 7-12 pick plus Nils — also illustrates how we CAN make a move like that without gutting the farm. We still have RD depth with Keane. We would pick up another 1st in the Kreider trade and surely 4 more top 3 round picks. Buch, Kravy, Lindgren/Hajek and co could also be moved without it turning our world upside down.

(b) Lemieux has been great for us, because we have an opening for him and we really need what he can bring. I think Greenway fits the exact same bill if we trade Kreider. Some seem to think that he is some great blue chip prospect that would cost a ton. It’s not that. He is struggling in Minny and they are talking about potentially moving on from him more or less. They got a LW log-jam and he keeps getting pushed down their line up.

Greenway isn’t the only one out there. I think we are keeping tabs on a few guys like him. And just like with Lemieux, it’s important to remember that these guys that is a great fit at one place doesn’t have to be that somewhere else. It all depends on what a team need. For many teams, someone like Lemieux would bring more of what they already have and not enough of what they need. We have so much puck skill and offensive skill on the back end (doesn’t it feel great to be able to conclude that? ). We can definitely carry someone like that, and especially if Kreider is traded.

(c) We know that Gorton gunned for Pulju before true December 1 deadline. I definitely think he had Fox success in mind and wanted to repeat. I think Panarin definitely could push Pulju over the hill, and darn is that ever kid that — could — end up contributing so much if he just could get into the league and establish a platform that he can build on. A really heavy slapper. Great size. Top speed that is hard to match. That reach. Vision and offensive instincts. You just must be able to find a solid, preferably fast, top 9 option for them and he could be had. Jost might fit that bill, as well as anyone else that Gorton might get his hands on in deals like this.

JMHO.

& rangers fans aren't overeating strome? Greenway isn't available Wild aren't trying to trade their young guy which is why Zucker is available to make room for Kaprizov.

It's also delusional to think wild wilm give more to greenway to get strome. Like delusional

 

[LORDE]

I want Kreider traded now. I love him. Own his jersey (one of only 3 I do own) but if he gets hurt and we can’t trade him I’m going to lose my sheet

He’s prime and ready to go

 

[Barnaby]

I think Skjei has way more value in the eyes of NHL GMs than us on HFNYR. The list of NYR defensemen who have gone on to excel immediately after leaving makes me nervous about trading him, but he might have a lot more value than people expect. I wouldn’t be surprised if Skjei became a legit #2/3D on the right team.

I agree. I’m not against trading him for sure, but I could see him really flourishing in the right system with the right partner. I could see his talents standing out in the right environment. I wouldn’t be surprised to see guys complaining in the future even if it clearly wasn’t happening here at this point.

I can certainly see a few clubs being interested thinking he can fit on a 2nd pair and might have some untapped upside.

 

[Tawnos]

I want Kreider traded now. I love him. Own his jersey (one of only 3 I do own) but if he gets hurt and we can’t trade him I’m going to lose my sheet

He’s prime and ready to go

Eh... I think the whole thing about continuing to play meaningful games as long as possible is right. Yes, there's the risk he gets injured. Luckily for us, the rebuild no longer hinges on a single deadline or draft. Of course I'd like to accumulate assets, but the development of the assets already here is just as important. Having them in meaningful situations is good for that development. Keep Kreider until it's clear we haven't made up enough ground.

I'm not all that worried about getting to the deadline and being in the playoff fight at that point. I think they'll continue to be the .500 team they've been. Sending the young guys the message of we've given up, this early, would be a mistake.

 

[NYRangers0723]

I want Kreider traded now. I love him. Own his jersey (one of only 3 I do own) but if he gets hurt and we can’t trade him I’m going to lose my sheet

He’s prime and ready to go

First off let’s see if we can still possibly work out a deal. If not then trading him now makes no sense. The closer you get to the deadline the more desperate teams get

 

[Ola]

& rangers fans aren't overeating strome? Greenway isn't available Wild aren't trying to trade their young guy which is why Zucker is available to make room for Kaprizov.

It's also delusional to think wild wilm give more to greenway to get strome. Like delusional

I don’t at all understand how you are thinking.

To get on the same page, how would you value Greenway and Strome respectively in relation to picks? Do you have Greenway as being worth a 1st and Strome a 3rd or what? You will not find anyone else that even remotely believes this.

And you totally miss a few key aspects:
*If you want a center, it’s darn near impossible to find one. Hayes got 50m from Philly and Winnipeg gave up a 1st AND Lemieux for him as a rental. Paul Statsny got what 7m per. Strome isn’t a top center. But let me know what other center that can be had period, no mind the price.

*Greenway is 23 in a few weeks and Strome is 26.

*Minny gave Zucc a FIVE year deal before this season. They have 4 Ds locked up long term and big parts of a top 6/9. And a record number of NMCs/NTCs.

*Why do you say that Greenway isn’t available? Minny beatwriters way that he is one that will come up in discussions. He has struggled in Minny and keep finding himself on a 4th line. Minny has a bit of a log-jam at LW with Parise, Fiala and Foligno. Preferably Greenway is a LW on a scoring line in a grinding role.

*Lastly, I certainly don’t think this is a move that would happen. But lol, I just don’t get the DELUSIOnaL part. I write many dumb things, on a scale Strome for Greenway plus a 2nd is certainly on the level headed side!

Appreciate your input though!

 

[RGY]

I think that guy is overvaluing Greenway a little too much. If he a Wild fan? BU fan? I mean he is a good kid with some promise but his ceiling is likely a 2nd liner at best. He certainly isnt there yet. Not even close. Obviously still young, but so is Strome and he has shown he can be a 2nd line player at the least.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

I think that guy is overvaluing Greenway a little too much. If he a Wild fan? BU fan? I mean he is a good kid with some promise but his ceiling is likely a 2nd liner at best. He certainly isnt there yet. Not even close. Obviously still young, but so is Strome and he has shown he can be a 2nd line player at the least.

Wild fan.

 

[haohmaru]

Personally, what I'd "like" to see:

There's no way I'm trading ADA
Staal + 2nd to a contender for a box of Frosted Flakes
Skjei needs to go. He's not putting it together here.
Sign Kreider, ADA, Lemieux, Fast, Strome, etc... with freed up cap $
Georgiev traded for a 2nd + prospect. Shesterkin is the real deal and you get your 2nd back that you traded with Staal for a ziplock bag full of air.
Keep Buchnevich. I know he's 24, but he's figuring it out. He's having a much better season than his numbers suggest.

 

[TheGortonConspiracy]

Kotka is not available, no chance

 

[kovazub94]

I don’t at all understand how you are thinking.

To get on the same page, how would you value Greenway and Strome respectively in relation to picks? Do you have Greenway as being worth a 1st and Strome a 3rd or what? You will not find anyone else that even remotely believes this.

And you totally miss a few key aspects:
*If you want a center, it’s darn near impossible to find one. Hayes got 50m from Philly and Winnipeg gave up a 1st AND Lemieux for him as a rental. Paul Statsny got what 7m per. Strome isn’t a top center. But let me know what other center that can be had period, no mind the price.

*Greenway is 23 in a few weeks and Strome is 26.

*Minny gave Zucc a FIVE year deal before this season. They have 4 Ds locked up long term and big parts of a top 6/9. And a record number of NMCs/NTCs.

*Why do you say that Greenway isn’t available? Minny beatwriters way that he is one that will come up in discussions. He has struggled in Minny and keep finding himself on a 4th line. Minny has a bit of a log-jam at LW with Parise, Fiala and Foligno. Preferably Greenway is a LW on a scoring line in a grinding role.

*Lastly, I certainly don’t think this is a move that would happen. But lol, I just don’t get the DELUSIOnaL part. I write many dumb things, on a scale Strome for Greenway plus a 2nd is certainly on the level headed side!

Appreciate your input though!

Wild is in a peculiar state, with all their vets I can see them adding young vets ready to perform now and for the next 3-5 years.

 

[doomscroll]

I keep seeing chatter here about Buchnevich being dealt, and it makes me frustrated that people want him gone. Pavel has produced at a pretty high-end second-line rate since he entered the league, and the fact that his production has been so consistent despite facing harder competition these last two season should be viewed as a point of optimism. His checking has improved immensely during his tenure with the Rangers, yet weird expectations about his production fuels trade-talk. The idea of being a perennial 45-point player seems fairly modest, but it’s essentially only achieved by first-liners and some second-liners.

Obviously points don’t tell the whole story, but Buchnevich is far from one-dimensional, and he has solidified himself as a genuine top-six winger since Quinn’s arrival.

 

[Fitzy]

In the unlikely event that Kreider stays, Strome (And likely Fast) go. That's just numbers.

So there's your tradeoff. Kreider is older and a riskier signing, and likely gets more at the deadline than Strome gets in the offseason.

That said, despite Strome's minutes, Kreider is the better player and it's looking increasingly like Chytil is going to be ready to take on a 2nd line role sooner than later.

 

[NYR Viper]

In the unlikely event that Kreider stays, Strome (And likely Fast) go. That's just numbers.

So there's your tradeoff. Kreider is older and a riskier signing, and likely gets more at the deadline than Strome gets in the offseason.

That said, despite Strome's minutes, Kreider is the better player and it's looking increasingly like Chytil is going to be ready to take on a 2nd line role sooner than later.

Option C is to trade both

 

[cheech70]

I keep seeing chatter here about Buchnevich being dealt, and it makes me frustrated that people want him gone. Pavel has produced at a pretty high-end second-line rate since he entered the league, and the fact that his production has been so consistent despite facing harder competition these last two season should be viewed as a point of optimism. His checking has improved immensely during his tenure with the Rangers, yet weird expectations about his production fuels trade-talk. The idea of being a perennial 45-point player seems fairly modest, but it’s essentially only achieved by first-liners and some second-liners.

Obviously points don’t tell the whole story, but Buchnevich is far from one-dimensional, and he has solidified himself as a genuine top-six winger since Quinn’s arrival.

All fair points especially his age. Mika gave him a strong endorsement after the game.
BUT he,,
-takes shifts off...look at Filip and how he finally understands that you need to play the entire length of the ice...Pavel does not do that.
- he is soft on the puck more than half the time...does not go into the tough areas with authority
-his confidence is easily shaken which results in low production shifts

So basically the things which could be improved ...like hustle, defensive maturity and game awareness are areas which Pavel continues to struggle with.

Mika said after last nights game that he is only 24 and he will get it. But we have to factor his cost in relation to the other costs of building a team and his term left on his current deal and his trade value.

So the question remains..what to do with Pavel. Me I am looking for a good return and moving on.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Wild is in a peculiar state, with all their vets I can see them adding young vets ready to perform now and for the next 3-5 years.

Outside of San Jose, I don't think there is a franchise that is as f***ed long term as Minnesota.b

 

[Fitzy]

Option C is to trade both

I suppose, but that leaves us substantively weaker next season.

At what point do we start to "build?"

 

[kovazub94]

Outside of San Jose, I don't think there is a franchise that is as ****ed long term as Minnesota.b

Yeah, and they’ll need to ride it out while in meantime trying to move some contracts for cents on $$, losing some maybe via expansion and / or new labor agreement to speed the turnover.

 

[NoQuitInNewMexico]

Absolutely. I think he’s mis-cast as a Two-Way-Do-it-All guy. But he can be a terrific shutdown type paired with a puck carrying defenseman like ADA or Fox. My opinion. I think he can be Top Four in that role.

I'm curious about what the stats say but I feel like Skjei's underrated on the power play?

Just following draft classes casually though it feels like there might be a lot of teams in our spot with big stables of offensive-minded defensemen, and Skjei shouldn't be an offense guy at even strength.

 

[Kovalev27]

It’s not that I don’t like Buch. I just see Kravtsov as a similar player but one that will be better.

I do not see anyone maybe in the league like Kreider and it’s why teams are drooling to get him. He’s a guy that’s even better come playoff time.

so for me I gladly trade fast and Buchnevich to keep Kreider.