Speculation: Roster Building Thread 2019-20: Part XXIX

[bobbop]

Possible showcase for a team that may be looking for goaltender.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Hes not being showcased when the team is trying to win games lol.

Igor's clearly got something going on

 

[Bruner4329]

Yes, we do know what Kreider is, and that's a nice player and a guy who looks like he fits on a first or second line as a SUPPORTING player, but not a line driver. He's a guy who in his prime was never "the guy" or even the second guy to carry our offense, even in the last couple years when we have been down. Simply put, a Kreider is not the difference between being a good team and a bad team, he's a guy who is way more valuable in affordable supplement to your stars, as he is even now to Zibanejad.

I'm not "dancing" around the issue. I've been very straightforward that I think that level of player is nice but not necessary and I've identified the handful of players who I think result in him being pushed down the lineup within a short number of seasons even if he maintains his current level of play.

Those players are Panarin, Zibanejad, Kakko, Kravtsov, and Chytil, and I also believe there is a strong likelihood that the Rangers acquire via trade (of say, Deangelo or another defensive prospect) or draft pick (like this year's potential top 10 pick) another player who is able to surpass Kreider's 50 point threshold within 3 years. I also think, that, if we fast forward 3 years and Buchnevich is still here, that a 27 year old Buchnevich has a good shot at being a better player than 32 year old Kreider. I also think, should we choose to re-sign Strome on say, a 3-5 year deal, that the pairing of Strome at center and moving Chytil to one of the wing spots ends up being better and that bumps Kreider out of the top 6 as well (because then our top-6 is Panarin, Zibanejad, Kakko, Kravtsov, Strome, Chytil, even if no other draft pick cracks the lineup).

The scenarios are numerous. I can't name every one of them. Given our assets -- we have a ridiculous surplus of highly valued RD who can't all make the team -- there is no way we don't acquire one and probably even TWO more top 6 players within the next couple seasons.

Once that happens, there is no room for Kreider in the top 6 if Zibanejad, Panarin, Kakko, Kravtsov and Chytil are all still here.

And I'm choosing them over Kreider.

He just doesn't really have a long term top 6 role here unless he's EXTREMELY affordable to the point where he could be placed on a "super" third line.

Lots of ifs and buts and you don't run a team like that. And by the way how much will it cost to acquire one or 2 top 6 players within the next 2 years? And once you do what do you think we would have to pay them. Sure I know you don't know but all that is part of the equation that management is probably looking at even though you seem to toss it around as a non-issue.

 

[mas0764]

These past 2 years Kreider has been like 4th on our team among forwards' average ice time. As recently as 2017-18 he was like 6th or 7th. This is consistently behind guys like Zucc, Nash, Hayes, etc. He's just not a top line carrier. He's at best a co-equal to those guys, and they were all equally expendable.

 

[JimmyG89]

That is really a shot that hank isn’t playing tonight. I don’t even know what to make of it.

Had a feeling with the ankle that with 2 games Shesterkin would sit tonight with tomorrow being the division game. I bet he’s back in for it.

something very weird going on with hank right now

They won't scratch him, but he isn't starting games. Got that Dallas game, got roasted, and that's been it. Playing against Detroit is like playing against a minor league team.

The Dallas game was 10 days ago. The gap of games from the Detroit game and the one before that was something like 21 days. We're talking about 8 periods of play over the course of a month.

If this isn't management saying let's try and find a landing spot you want to be in next season, I'm not sure what it is. If they really wanted to keep him around, he'd be playing more OR Georgiev would already be traded.

 

[mas0764]

Lots of ifs and buts and you don't run a team like that.

Like what? By identifying how your players fit in the future? You absolutely do.

And by the way how much will it cost to acquire one or 2 top 6 players within the next 2 years?

I just said that. Trade or draft pick. I think there is NO WAY the Rangers don't find another player or two of that caliber in the coming few years. The talent acquisition part of this build isn't over yet.

And once you do what do you think we would have to pay them. Sure I know you don't know but all that is part of the equation that management is probably looking at even though you seem to toss it around as a non-issue.

I'm talking young players, so in all likelihood, way less than Kreider's $7m.

Salary management isn't a non-issue; in fact, it's the reason why it is bad to re-sign Kreider. He's going to be overpaid for his likely future role here within just a couple seasons. You are the one treating it like a non issue.

 

[Shesterkybomb]

That is really a shot that hank isn’t playing tonight. I don’t even know what to make of it.

Had a feeling with the ankle that with 2 games Shesterkin would sit tonight with tomorrow being the division game. I bet he’s back in for it.

something very weird going on with hank right now

Been saying it for a while,they are trying to make him ask for a trade.

 

[haveandare]

These past 2 years Kreider has been like 4th on our team among forwards' average ice time. As recently as 2017-18 he was like 6th or 7th. This is consistently behind guys like Zucc, Nash, Hayes, etc. He's just not a top line carrier. He's at best a co-equal to those guys, and they were all equally expendable.

They were maybe all equally expendable from the start. Once we moved all those guys, the few remaining vets with experience in the organization became less expendable imo.

 

[mas0764]

They were maybe all equally expendable from the start. Once we moved all those guys, the few remaining vets with experience in the organization became less expendable imo.

True, but I think we have enough to get us by.

Again, I think this is probably the last major sell off.

Defense and Goalie have both current and future young players in the pipeline in abundance.

Forward doesn't. It has Kakko, Kravtsov, and Chytil. Andersson has busted out. And forward is the position you need the most of.

We still have to be asset accumulating to make our forward cupboard resemble of D cupboard.

 

[Trxjw]

Minny could use a goalie (though Kahkonen has been doing well for them). Russo mentioned yesterday on his podcast that the Rangers want Greenway and he's the most likely of their younger guys to be dealt.

 

[Blue Blooded]

I wonder what Nikita Zadorov's chart looks like?

That's the thing, Zads doesn't do this at all. Most "tough stay at home D" don't do this, but NEMETH has done it consistently for his whole career - that's why I love him.

Zadorov:

Compare and contrast to NEMETH, look at those HDCA/60 Rel numbers:

 

[Kovalev27]

This is officially Daniel Jones/Eli Manning territory.

Quinn which I didn’t think would do actually named Shesterkin his #1.

 

[aufheben]

Minny could use a goalie. Russo mentioned yesterday on his podcast that the Rangers want Greenway and he's the most likely of their younger guys to be dealt.

I was saying this last week. I don’t understand why they haven’t done it. They’d be in the playoffs right now.

 

[Inferno]

These past 2 years Kreider has been like 4th on our team among forwards' average ice time. As recently as 2017-18 he was like 6th or 7th. This is consistently behind guys like Zucc, Nash, Hayes, etc. He's just not a top line carrier. He's at best a co-equal to those guys, and they were all equally expendable.

Guys who play both pp and pk generally get more mins than guys who only play 1 or the other.

 

[Oscar Lindberg]

Carp complaining on twitter about people not considering him an "insider" is peak old man

I read his trade deadline primer article this morning on the Athletic, laziest article of his I've read in a while. Half of it is just citing other Athletic writers

 

[ETTER DE]

BOLD STATEMENT. We're witnessing in real time, THE turning point of this rebuild. And its name is Igor Shesterkin.

I was lying awake in bed because I couldn't stop thinking about how if the Rangers just let Shesty play every game the rest of this season AND kept Kreider, they could theoretically make the playoffs.

I know it sounds crazy given where they're at in the standings and how many teams they have to jump but if you just extrapolate Shesty's win percentage as a pro over the next 27 games, Rangers could go roughly 21-6 or 20-7. Either way, they'd finish with 100 or more pts.

BUT... then I realized I was missing the bigger picture. If Shesty is officially THE GUY now, we need to reassess the timetable for team building.

Igor Shesterkin will very likely be the biggest accelerator of the rebuild. Bigger than Panarin, bigger than Trouba. Just like Lundqvist 14 years ago. Once Hank took over, we had 40+ wins EVERY SEASON except the 09-10 season. Hank led a very mediocre squad to 14 more wins than they had the previous year in just his rookie season.

Point is, elite goaltending is likely to make us a playoff team (not nec. a contender). It will mask A LOT of our issues.

As a result, we shouldn't be stocking up on draft picks and players that'll take 3-4 years to make the team and 5 or 6 to hit their prime. That would just put us in a cycle of mediocrity. And given many factors, we should make sure our contention window is definitely open by 21-22.

And we need to understand the Kreider, Strome, Buch, Skjei, DeAngelo situations within the context of this timing. And JG and JD need to have a plan for how to flip futures we'd get in any trades for players who can have a more near-term impact. So, if the Rangers get what turns out to be a 30th OA draft pick and a B level prospect in a Kreider trade -- is that really the right move? Like don't we need to get an asset that can be more impactful sooner? Or an asset we're confident can help us land an asset that can make a more immediate impact? And if that's the case, are we just trading CK because of the cap? And is that the smartest way to build a team?

Agree with what you are saying, But remember. That first round pick can be used to trade for another player. Some posters have already talked about that Rangers may want to upgrade on several positions. Then a first round pick could be very handy.

 

[JimmyG89]

These past 2 years Kreider has been like 4th on our team among forwards' average ice time. As recently as 2017-18 he was like 6th or 7th. This is consistently behind guys like Zucc, Nash, Hayes, etc. He's just not a top line carrier. He's at best a co-equal to those guys, and they were all equally expendable.

I'll say this: with the exception of Hayes, Nash and Zuccarello were older and over 30. Now, 29 isn't much younger than 30, but Zuccarello was 31 at the time of his deal and Nash was 32/33. You have to think they knew Nash was done after the season, so give him a cup chance. Zuccarello is a smaller player entering his 30s. Unless you're a freak like MSL was, those tend to go south quickly. He was also never the producer than St. Louis was, so if MSL had a dip in production, it would be to a good top 6 forward vs a 3rd liner.

Also, Hayes was never really the guy that set an example until the end on working in the offseason (remember the "lost 20lbs in the summer" meme) and they visibly were addressing his position on the team with draft selections and trades (Andersson, Chytil, and Howden). Look at JT Miller getting jettisoned from the roster and his comments this past week. He was outright and said he never really took being in great shape to heart until he got moved THIS SUMMER.

While production is key to keeping guys, so is being the guy to set the example for the young guys coming up. Kreider does that better than the other mentioned AND he's still on the good side of 30 for at least 3 years of the deal (33+ is starting to become 35+ of years past).

 

[Oscar Lindberg]

I'd do Georgiev for Greenway in a second if the Wild offered it.

Young forward who's huge with some decent upside, no brainer to accept

 

[Inferno]

Carp complaining on twitter about people not considering him an "insider" is peak old man

I read his trade deadline primer article this morning on the Athletic, laziest article of his I've read in a while. Half of it is just citing other Athletic writers

I don't really use Twitter all that much, but I will say anyone who thinks staal has played well... Not like... Well as can be expected but actually played well.. is nuts.

 

[Inferno]

I'd do Georgiev for Greenway in a second if the Wild offered it.

Young forward who's huge with some decent upside, no brainer to accept

So would I, and I'm not all that high on Greenway.

 

[ETTER DE]

I have a thought:

Why don’t we tie Smith to Georgiev for the purpose of creating cap space.

Detroit : bag of pucks

NYR : Smith + Georgiev

Then we will have the cap space to retain Kreider along with our RFAs.

Thoughts?

Like the idea of trading Smith to Detroit. Maybe they need to reach the cap floor? But Georgiev is probably to much. Maybe a larger package were both are involved?

 

[cheech70]

This is officially Daniel Jones/Eli Manning territory.

Quinn which I didn’t think would do actually named Shesterkin his #1.

So the last batch of games was a try out for the stretch run. First I am hearing it...Quick comment and done! No controversy.

 

[Oscar Lindberg]

This is officially Daniel Jones/Eli Manning territory.

Quinn which I didn’t think would do actually named Shesterkin his #1.

I don't believe the team is trying to make Hank want to waive his NMC, but I could understand why he'd be upset and do it based after public comments like this

I really hope they just rip the band aid off and trade Georgiev at the deadline, so this awkwardness can end

 

[Ghost of jas]

Greenway for Georgiev? Sounds great to me.

 

[East Coast Bias]

Hes not being showcased when the team is trying to win games lol.

Igor's clearly got something going on

quinn did say that Igor has a sore ankle and they’re being cautious