Speculation: Roster Building Thread 2019-20: Part XXIX

[mas0764]

Even if you get a top 9, which I doubt, saying that you will get another top-9 who's ready in 2 years with a late first pick isn't realistic.

Uh, we got back Lemieux who was top-9, and I expect the return for Kreider to be better, frankly.

I am not sure you are up on what is realistic or not. Our drafting has been great lately. No reason to assume that we cannot get a valuable asset with that late first.

 

[Bruner4329]

I'm thinking about 2-3 years down the road when it's almost certain that Kreider isn't one of the best 4 wingers we have anymore.

Can you for certain right now name the 4 that will be better? And don't give me a bunch of ifs and buts. For certain means it is evident right now.

 

[mas0764]

People never learn a lesson. You move Chytil to wing that is one less center we have and we do not have a lot of centers in the wings, if any. I think Kakko will work out eventually but at this point betting on Kravtsov is fools gold. He appears soft and had a hissy fit when being sent down. Not sure what his makeup is. And lets not forget some of you pushing for Lias as the number 2 center coming into this year when he hat a crappy season last year in Hartford. There were warts all over his game last year people ignored. You need to have some givens not a bunch of ifs.

We have givens. We have Kakko, we have Panarin, we have Zibanejad, and we have a stable of defensemen who in the aggregate will absolutely produce a top defensive core once they've matured. We have some birds in hand.

What we need is to get creative to find the finishing touches, which is, a couple more dynamic forwards for the long term. Kreider is a complimentary piece and not the line-driver we need. He is, unfortunately, expendable to that end of finding at least one more dynamic talent. He has to go.

Unless he wants to come back this offseason for a discount.

 

[mas0764]

Can you for certain right now name the 4 that will be better? And don't give me a bunch of ifs and buts. For certain means it is evident right now.

My argument isn't based on certainty, it's based on likelihood, so I reject your straw man.

Of course, you aren't certain either that Kreider doesn't drop off a cliff as soon as he signs his new deal, so we're all dealing with projection, really.

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

So? Neither is as good as Kreider now.

I'm constructing a team for the future, not just next year. If you aren't also doing that, then I question your approach.

Any roster move you make has to be done with a projection of where your young players slot in for at least the intermediate future (2-3-4 years down the line).

I project Kakko to be a first liner and Kravtsov probably a second liner in that time frame. This is both the desirable and likely outcome.

If you don't think Kravtsov gets there, then maybe it makes sense to bring back Kreider long term, because you neither need the roster spot or expensive extension for Kravtsov's expiring ELC.

But if you think Kravtsov locks in to the second line as a 50-60 point player or more, and that is preferable to Kreider as Kravtsov projects to be a more dynamic offensive force, then that is one less spot for Kreider to occupy.



I'm not talking about next year. I'm talking about down the line. My reasoning for Kreider being traded isn't based on what happens next year. It's based on the fact that within 2-3 years he will likely be not worth the money, but more importantly, no room in the top 6 for him.



Does it need to be explained to you? If Kravtsov pans out, Kreider is literally no better than our fourth best winger, and if anyone else moves to that spot (which is likely), then Kreider is out of the top 6. This is the LIKELY scenario.

I'm not paying Kreider for 7 years to protect myself from UNLIKELY scenarios (ie, Kravtsov busts and we don't obtain any other top wingers with our assets in the coming 2-3 seasons).

And this isn't even addressing the other elephant in the room which was just brought up: Even if guys like Kravtsov don't pan out.... better free agents are lurking in the near future.

No, no guarantee we get them. But the flexibility is more important than having Kreider, who, we know what he is. And it's nice, but.... not a needle mover.

I want needle movers before I go filling in my roster holes with support players like Kreider. We need at least one more needle mover at this point among our top 6 forwards. When we get that player in the system (and I hope it's someone like Holtz in this coming draft), I think the selling days will be over.

But for now, we must keep selling.

Where are you constructing this roster, Fantasy Land? You need 6 players for a top 6. 2 Cs, 2 LWs, 2 RWs. You're plugging guys in out of position and assuming way too much. There's room for veterans and younger guys on this and every NHL roster.

And if you think Kreider is just a support player, you're going to be in for a rude awakening when Kravtsov gets here.

 

[JESSEWENEEDTOCOOK]

Ask the Knicks about allocating cap space to lure big time FA

Well, players actually WANT to sign with the Rangers. No one - no one - wants to play for the Knicks. Not comparable.

 

[RGY]

You simply cannot assume all of the 2022 free agent class will actually make it to free agency. Many may be re-signed. Some traded and extended. And then whats left could become a bidding war. Its not so simple to say dont re-sign Kreider at $7 mil aav, we can wait and sign one of those guys who will absolutely command more than the $7 mil aav...in which case thats even less dollars available to pay the kids or bring in players to fill out the middle 6...

 

[mas0764]

Where are you constructing this roster, Fantasy Land? You need 6 players for a top 6. 2 Cs, 2 LWs, 2 RWs. You're plugging guys in out of position and assuming way too much.

You make your top-6 work with the best talent. Kakko can play left wing. Chytil can play wing.

I mean, I've already explained it, but again, I see the following players as better than Kreider in 2-3 years:

Panarin
Zibanejad
Kakko
Kravtsov
Chytil
Our first round pick this year (hopefully and likely)
Buchnevich if he's not traded also possible
Any other free agent that might be better and available

So again, there is not gonna be a lot of top-6 ice time for Kreider moving forward. Next year, yes.

After that probably not so much.

There's room for veterans and younger guys on this and every NHL roster.

And we have veterans here, with or without Kreider.

And if you think Kreider is just a support player, you're going to be in for a rude awakening when Kravtsov gets here.

Well, as I've said, if you don't think of Kravtsov as a good NHL piece, then maybe that's the source of our disagreement. If you think of Kravtsov as a likely nothing until he proves it, and you think it's more likely he doesn't crack the top 6, then there is much more of a future role for Kreider.

But if it's likely that Kakko, Kravtsov, and our first rounder this year all pan out, and I think it is, then there's just no room for Kreider in a top-6 scenario in the mid-term future. At which point there will still be literally YEARS left on his contract and a NTC binding him to NYC if he wants.

 

[mas0764]

You simply cannot assume all of the 2022 free agent class will actually make it to free agency. Many may be re-signed. Some traded and extended. And then whats left could become a bidding war. Its not so simple to say dont re-sign Kreider at $7 mil aav, we can wait and sign one of those guys who will absolutely command more than the $7 mil aav...in which case thats even less dollars available to pay the kids or bring in players to fill out the middle 6...

Not assuming all will.

Actually on this point, it's probably likely that we won't get a big FA in that class, but I'd like the flexibility to remain open if we need to go for a "final piece" shot to turn our roster into a cup contender.

 

[Off Sides]

Kreider may make it free agency, Hayes, Zucc made it last year. Panarin was just signed from it.

Of course no one can plan on that all the time, nor can they plan on trading for a Trouba, Fox, Zbad, or having like 5-6 prospects they did not have 3 years ago raise to the ranks of NHLers

What they can plan on is having some flexibility in case that does continue to happen, while giving themselves a good chance of that continuing to happen.

 

[cheech70]

Kreider may make it free agency, Hayes, Zucc made it last year. Panarin was just signed from it.

Of course no one can plan on that all the time, nor can they plan on trading for a Trouba, Fox, Zbad, or having like 5-6 prospects they did not have 3 years ago raise to the ranks of NHLers

What they can plan on is having some flexibility in case that does continue to happen, while giving themselves a good chance of that continuing to happen.

Or finding the money elsewhere( Strome,Brady,Fast.Hank buyout) and signing Chris

 

[True Blue]

Kravstov has bust written all over him . Another perimeter player that will be in most NHL coaches doghouse because he can’t play a physical Game and plays an east west style that doesn’t win in the SCPO

#WeNeverGetAGood........

 

[Oscar Lindberg]

Has anything happened today or is everyone still taking about the same stuff?

 

[Lion Hound]

Has anything happened today or is everyone still taking about the same stuff?

It rained, and the temp dropped a bit.

 

[mas0764]

Or finding the money elsewhere( Strome,Brady,Fast.Hank buyout) and signing Chris

Some of that money will have to be found elsewhere anyway, even if you don't re-sign Kreider.

You have to make sure the future core (Panarin, Zibanejad, Kakko, Kravtsov, Chytil, Fox, Trouba, DeAngelo, etc) have money available. It's a lot of guys that you can already identify are likely to get big extensions. And there are more coming.

That's why it would be pretty bad paying that much money to a guy who ends up a third liner.

For less term it's much less worrisome, because by the time all those extensions come due, he's off the books. 3 years would be perfect. 4 would be fine. 5 would be the max I'd realistically like to go. 7 should be downright out for everyone.

 

[RangerBoy]

 

[Bruner4329]

My argument isn't based on certainty, it's based on likelihood, so I reject your straw man.

Of course, you aren't certain either that Kreider doesn't drop off a cliff as soon as he signs his new deal, so we're all dealing with projection, really.

Certainty or liklihood you are dancing around the question even though your own words were "for certain".
Sure Kreider can get hit by a car tomorrow as well but right now we know what he is and at this point when you are banking on prospects who could not even make the team out of camp and instead of working hard ran home to their native country to weep. No thanks I for one won't be depending on those or consider them as the heir apparent when they have proven zilch so far. They only thing they have proven is that they may not have the fortitude to succeed.

 

[JimmyG89]

Could have easily started Hank, but went to Georgiev.

Something is happening we probably do not know about at this point. I really wonder if the trade option is potentially opening up for Hank.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

Could have easily started Hank, but went to Georgiev.

Something is happening we probably do not know about at this point. I really wonder if the trade option is potentially opening up for Hank.

Either that, or a passive aggressive attempt at ensuring Lundqvist isn't on the books next year through some sort of mechanism.

Look, I love the guy. My favorite Ranger by a country mile of the last 20 years. But the teams best path forward is likely without him.

 

[Thirty One]

Lundqvist got to play on Tuesday. Don't want to overwork him.

 

[RGY]

Either that, or a passive aggressive attempt at ensuring Lundqvist isn't on the books next year through some sort of mechanism.

Look, I love the guy. My favorite Ranger by a country mile of the last 20 years. But the teams best path forward is likely without him.

I think they are handling this as best as they possibly could.

Hank has a resumè so they do not necessarily need to showcase him to attract interest.

Georgiev, does however need to play if they want to keep their options open with trades.

And of course it is the first of a back-to-back someone was going to play other than Igor in one of these

 

[mas0764]

Certainty or liklihood you are dancing around the question even though your own words were "for certain".
Sure Kreider can get hit by a car tomorrow as well but right now we know what he is and at this point when you are banking on prospects who could not even make the team out of camp and instead of working hard ran home to their native country to weep. No thanks I for one won't be depending on those or consider them as the heir apparent when they have proven zilch so far. They only thing they have proven is that they may not have the fortitude to succeed.

Yes, we do know what Kreider is, and that's a nice player and a guy who looks like he fits on a first or second line as a SUPPORTING player, but not a line driver. He's a guy who in his prime was never "the guy" or even the second guy to carry our offense, even in the last couple years when we have been down. Simply put, a Kreider is not the difference between being a good team and a bad team, he's a guy who is way more valuable in affordable supplement to your stars, as he is even now to Zibanejad.

I'm not "dancing" around the issue. I've been very straightforward that I think that level of player is nice but not necessary and I've identified the handful of players who I think result in him being pushed down the lineup within a short number of seasons even if he maintains his current level of play.

Those players are Panarin, Zibanejad, Kakko, Kravtsov, and Chytil, and I also believe there is a strong likelihood that the Rangers acquire via trade (of say, Deangelo or another defensive prospect) or draft pick (like this year's potential top 10 pick) another player who is able to surpass Kreider's 50 point threshold within 3 years. I also think, that, if we fast forward 3 years and Buchnevich is still here, that a 27 year old Buchnevich has a good shot at being a better player than 32 year old Kreider. I also think, should we choose to re-sign Strome on say, a 3-5 year deal, that the pairing of Strome at center and moving Chytil to one of the wing spots ends up being better and that bumps Kreider out of the top 6 as well (because then our top-6 is Panarin, Zibanejad, Kakko, Kravtsov, Strome, Chytil, even if no other draft pick cracks the lineup).

The scenarios are numerous. I can't name every one of them. Given our assets -- we have a ridiculous surplus of highly valued RD who can't all make the team -- there is no way we don't acquire one and probably even TWO more top 6 players within the next couple seasons.

Once that happens, there is no room for Kreider in the top 6 if Zibanejad, Panarin, Kakko, Kravtsov and Chytil are all still here.

And I'm choosing them over Kreider.

He just doesn't really have a long term top 6 role here unless he's EXTREMELY affordable to the point where he could be placed on a "super" third line.

 

[Kovalev27]

That is really a shot that hank isn’t playing tonight. I don’t even know what to make of it.

Had a feeling with the ankle that with 2 games Shesterkin would sit tonight with tomorrow being the division game. I bet he’s back in for it.

something very weird going on with hank right now

 

[bobbop]

Has anything happened today or is everyone still taking about the same stuff?

Same old, same old. Check back later.

 

[duhmetreE]

Yes, we do know what Kreider is, and that's a nice player and a guy who looks like he fits on a first or second line as a SUPPORTING player, but not a line driver. He's a guy who in his prime was never "the guy" or even the second guy to carry our offense, even in the last couple years when we have been down. Simply put, a Kreider is not the difference between being a good team and a bad team, he's a guy who is way more valuable in affordable supplement to your stars, as he is even now to Zibanejad.

I'm not "dancing" around the issue. I've been very straightforward that I think that level of player is nice but not necessary and I've identified the handful of players who I think result in him being pushed down the lineup within a short number of seasons even if he maintains his current level of play.

Those players are Panarin, Zibanejad, Kakko, Kravtsov, and Chytil, and I also believe there is a strong likelihood that the Rangers acquire via trade (of say, Deangelo or another defensive prospect) or draft pick (like this year's potential top 10 pick) another player who is able to surpass Kreider's 50 point threshold within 3 years. I also think, that, if we fast forward 3 years and Buchnevich is still here, that a 27 year old Buchnevich has a good shot at being a better player than 32 year old Kreider. I also think, should we choose to re-sign Strome on say, a 3-5 year deal, that the pairing of Strome at center and moving Chytil to one of the wing spots ends up being better and that bumps Kreider out of the top 6 as well (because then our top-6 is Panarin, Zibanejad, Kakko, Kravtsov, Strome, Chytil, even if no other draft pick cracks the lineup).

The scenarios are numerous. I can't name every one of them. Given our assets -- we have a ridiculous surplus of highly valued RD who can't all make the team -- there is no way we don't acquire one and probably even TWO more top 6 players within the next couple seasons.

Once that happens, there is no room for Kreider in the top 6 if Zibanejad, Panarin, Kakko, Kravtsov and Chytil are all still here.

And I'm choosing them over Kreider.

He just doesn't really have a long term top 6 role here unless he's EXTREMELY affordable to the point where he could be placed on a "super" third line.