Speculation: Roster Building Frenzy Part XX

[Levitate]

You also have to weigh the risk of losing Zibanejad. That’s the crux of this whole argument. Even if Eichel is an upgrade over Zibanejad (I don’t completely agree with that), he’s a marginal upgrade at best. Is that marginal upgrade worth the acquisition cost?

The pipe dream of having both of them is just that. It ain’t happening.

I mean, even if he's just a small upgrade he's about 5 years younger than Zibanejad. Zibanejad is going to decline in the next 5 years, it's basically inevitable, but Eichel could be/should be in his prime for those 5 years.

 

[Edge]

You also have to weigh the risk of losing Zibanejad. That’s the crux of this whole argument. Even if Eichel is an upgrade over Zibanejad (I don’t completely agree with that), he’s a marginal upgrade at best. Is that marginal upgrade worth the acquisition cost?

The pipe dream of having both of them is just that. It ain’t happening.

The cost and disruption is definitely among my chief concerns.

I'd be lying if I said I was in love with either option.

 

[jay from jersey]

What ouch?

Tocchet as asst coach

 

[Thirty One]

Tocchet as asst coach

I'm not going to look, but I'm going to assume the last team he was an assistant coach with had nothing but failure.

 

[bleedblue94]

I'm not in favor of such an offer sheet (I'm wary of trading our 1st rounder in either of the next two drafts. People I respect who know more about it than I do have said the next two years are stacked--next year with depth and the following with generational top end talent).

I wasn't a fan of the Lindros trade either, nor the Nash trade. You are correct in that these kinds of players are rarely available. When they are, it's because there is a problem. Concussion issues, locker-room issues, wanting out because they have spent YEARS in a losing culture, etc. My concern with the Nash trade was that he had no real post-season experience to speak of, and we (at that time) were a team ready to compete for the Cup. Players need to learn how to play in the post-season. The vast majority of players get progressively better over their first few playoffs. I honestly think that if we had Dubinsky and AA instead of Nash, we would have been more likely to win the Cup against LA. To be fair to Nash, if we had the Nash from two years later, that would be true as well. He got better in the playoffs each year, but our best chance coincided with his "ghost" year (ie: his first real experience with playoff hockey).

I think it is very difficult to add such players without drafting in the top 3. Until recently, we'd literally never done that.

As such, I would advocate for building the team around the two high end picks that we have. They happen to both be wingers. The team is also absurdly deep on defense. That's the team we have. The Cap is going to be tied up in Panarin, Laf, Kakko, Kravtsov and Kreider. It's going to be tied up in Fox, Trouba, Miller, and the incoming depth guys. We don't have the money for multiple high end centers. We need to find guys who can bring elements that are missing (defense, physicality, face-off skill) and who can distribute the puck to our stars on the wings. There's no other way around it unless we want to blow things up in order to try and buy multiple top line centers (and I don't just mean the trade cost--I mean the cap casualties, as they will be numerous and painful). Remember when Drury and Gomez came in as the big signings, and we weren't sure which one was going to play with Jagr and put up HUGE numbers? Then neither of them did, and Jagr played with Dubinsky because the pair just fit better than either of the big name guys. That's what we need. Good "fit" guys to play center between our absurd number of top six wingers.

The short version is that people keep urging the team to go out and gamble on high profile talents. I want the team to focus on building a complete team around the high end talents that are already on the roster.

I don't necessarily disagree with anything you said here except that reality is Mika is a ufa after this year w an extension kicking in at 30 years old. I don't really look at the eichel as as a move to run eichel Mika for more than one year. Eichel becomes your longer term alternative to mika after one year together. I just really don't want to invest in Mika at his age and with the concussion issues. I would rather deal w the risks of neck issue than concussions.

I fully accept I could be wrong, but between age and injury history I look to eichel for the long term 1c.

 

[jay from jersey]

Eichel will literally be a ufa off the books before he's even as old as karlsson was at the time of his trade

Yes, Letang had spinal fusion surgery. I hit didn’t end his career or hinder his numbers, Dorsett I also believe was still fighting after neck surgery if I’m not mistaken. Both instances don’t mean the same for Eichel, just as he’s not guaranteed to re injure the same area in question.
The question is calculated risk. Would you rather have the guy 5 years younger, and better depending on the cost to acquire? Or Zibby? Because its basically 6 in 1 half dozen in the other whether eichel gets hit and re-injures his neck or if some goon plasters Zibby into the boards and his career is done with PCS.
The alternative would be going after neither, but that’s pretty much going to end any chances of trying to make some noise in the playoffs while panarin is playing the best hockey of his career.
And having a Norris D
Top 10 goalie
..... you know the rest

 

[jay from jersey]

The cost and disruption is definitely among my chief concerns.

I'd be lying if I said I was in love with either option.

What would you rather get a Root canal or a colonoscopy?? Those look like our choices.

 

[jay from jersey]

I'm not going to look, but I'm going to assume the last team he was an assistant coach with had nothing but failure.

Prob the Avs when they blew with Quinn there too

 

[smoneil]

I don't necessarily disagree with anything you said here except that reality is Mika is a ufa after this year w an extension kicking in at 30 years old. I don't really look at the eichel as as a move to run eichel Mika for more than one year. Eichel becomes your longer term alternative to mika after one year together. I just really don't want to invest in Mika at his age and with the concussion issues. I would rather deal w the risks of neck issue than concussions.

I fully accept I could be wrong, but between age and injury history I look to eichel for the long term 1c.

I get that. I would be fine investing in Zib for a reasonable term (no more than 5 years). If he's not amenable, I'd rather move him at the deadline at 50% (get more picks in the stacked drafts) and bring in someone via FA. I just don't think we need to have a top-dollar center on the roster, nor do I think we can afford it long term. We already know that Panarin's line will be a first line no matter who is on it. If Laf and Kakko/Kravtsov develop as we hope, then a guy like a Danault or a Couturier or someone similar might be more than enough to be the "dirty work" guy on a wing-driven line. Who knows, Barron and Chytil might surprise us, Berard might make a bit jump developmentally, of a trade for a Larkin or a Cirelli might present itself.

 

[Ola]

Most teams are in a better cap situation than we are (disregarding this season) and just about anyone have the assets to get Eichel. There aren’t many teams that are overcrowded with elite centers.

Why are nobody else interested in him? There are 32 teams in this league. The price isn’t even that high for the western teams at least. Basically the Karlsson deal.

Yashin wasn’t old either when NYI traded for him.

Eichel has never accomplished anything with Buffalo. They haven’t been a rebuilding team. They have tried to get into the POs for most of his tenure there, spending to the Cap. Sure management of that team can be questioned, but Eichel is right in the middle of it. That is why so few teams are interested in him. Players like him just don’t win much for you in today’s NHL. Prime Vinny Lecavalier wouldn’t either.

Gabe Villardi has come in and been a real threat for LAK around the net after he came back from his injury. His play is impressive. Now they are moving him to the wing. He doesn’t have the 2-way game to play center. Another player in this mold is Quinton Byfield. The kid from some perspectives is an extreme talent. Will QB become a big star in this league? The game has just changed so much, I am — far — from sold on QB. Eichel isn’t a player type that is that successful in today’s NHL. The trend around the league is so obvious.

 

[CLW]

I don't necessarily disagree with anything you said here except that reality is Mika is a ufa after this year w an extension kicking in at 30 years old. I don't really look at the eichel as as a move to run eichel Mika for more than one year. Eichel becomes your longer term alternative to mika after one year together. I just really don't want to invest in Mika at his age and with the concussion issues. I would rather deal w the risks of neck issue than concussions.

I fully accept I could be wrong, but between age and injury history I look to eichel for the long term 1c.

Zib can LTIR-etire if he gets another bad concussion (touch wood). Eichel will need fusion if/when the ADR fails, which will put him out another year and he will never be the same again. Under those circumstances Eichel is not injured enough to retire, but not healthy enough to be nearly worth his cap hit.

Zib is the easy choice imo. If anything Gallant's system should fit Zib like a glove and by the time he starts to slow down Laf, Kakko, Chytil and Kravtsov should be roaring.

 

[RGY]

Wish we could have come away with Larkin.

 

[smoneil]

Yes, Letang had spinal fusion surgery. I hit didn’t end his career or hinder his numbers, Dorsett I also believe was still fighting after neck surgery if I’m not mistaken. Both instances don’t mean the same for Eichel, just as he’s not guaranteed to re injure the same area in question.
The question is calculated risk. Would you rather have the guy 5 years younger, and better depending on the cost to acquire? Or Zibby? Because its basically 6 in 1 half dozen in the other whether eichel gets hit and re-injures his neck or if some goon plasters Zibby into the boards and his career is done with PCS.
The alternative would be going after neither, but that’s pretty much going to end any chances of trying to make some noise in the playoffs while panarin is playing the best hockey of his career.
And having a Norris D
Top 10 goalie
..... you know the rest

What would you rather get a Root canal or a colonoscopy?? Those look like our choices.

Honestly though--why are those "our only choices"? Why would not having either Zib or Eichel "end any chances to make some noise in the playoffs"? We made the SCF and multiple ECF with 55-point Derek Stepan as our 1C. The team went deep multiple times on depth, structure, defense, and goaltending. This team's depth is better and more talented (or at least has the potential to be). This team's defense has the potential to blow the SCF team's defense off the ice. The goaltending isn't quite as good, but still phenomenal, with the potential for more. This group looks to have better versions of almost every single thing those earlier teams had. Yet without dropping 10 large on Zib or Eichel, they won't go anywhere? If we get the right trio of centers (and I think Chytil is one of them. Zib could be depending on price and term), they just need to be complementary pieces.

To use an old NFL reference, we need a couple of Neil O'Donnell's-- a guy who will win a Super Bowl with the Steelers just by managing the game and not screwing up (because the rest of the team is so damn good), but if asked to carry a team will go down in flames (like when he played for the Jets).

 

[smoneil]

Wish we could have come away with Larkin.

The off season isn't over.

 

[Bacon Artemi Bravo]

Either Larkin or Hertl would be the best options. Legit, top tier 2C's that can win faceoffs and make an impact on both sides of the puck. Further, both will cost less assets than a Barkov/Eichel tier player, and both are some of the best character guys in the game today. Would feasibly be able to retain the services of Mr. Zibby while having either one of them locked up long term.

 

[CLW]

Most teams are in a better cap situation than we are (disregarding this season) and just about anyone have the assets to get Eichel. There aren’t many teams that are overcrowded with elite centers.

Why are nobody else interested in him? There are 32 teams in this league. The price isn’t even that high for the western teams at least. Basically the Karlsson deal.

Yashin wasn’t old either when NYI traded for him.

Eichel has never accomplished anything with Buffalo. They haven’t been a rebuilding team. They have tried to get into the POs for most of his tenure there, spending to the Cap. Sure management of that team can be questioned, but Eichel is right in the middle of it. That is why so few teams are interested in him. Players like him just don’t win much for you in today’s NHL. Prime Vinny Lecavalier wouldn’t either.

Gabe Villardi has come in and been a real threat for LAK around the net after he came back from his injury. His play is impressive. Now they are moving him to the wing. He doesn’t have the 2-way game to play center. Another player in this mold is Quinton Byfield. The kid from some perspectives is an extreme talent. Will QB become a big star in this league? The game has just changed so much, I am — far — from sold on QB. Eichel isn’t a player type that is that successful in today’s NHL. The trend around the league is so obvious.

The Jets trapped a little and the Oilers' mighty duo McDavid and Draisaitl got nowhere. Vegas frustrated MacKinnon and won handily even if the Avs had the more cutting edge talent. Depth and organization defeat top heavy teams more often than not. It's when two deep and organized teams meet that talent becomes the deciding factor.

 

[JT Kreider]

The Jets trapped a little and the Oilers' mighty duo McDavid and Draisaitl got nowhere. Vegas frustrated MacKinnon and won handily even if the Avs had the more cutting edge talent. Depth and organization defeat top heavy teams more often than not. It's when two deep and organized teams meet that talent becomes the deciding factor.

We saw this in 2014-16 with our playoff series with the Penguins. The only thing that changed in 2016 was our depth got worse and worse while the Pens did a great job filling out their roster and Hagelin, Hornqvist, Bonino, Cullen, Wilson, Rust and Kuhnackl wrecked us.

The best team we had was also the best 4th line we ever had with Moore BB and Dorsett with our best 3rd line we ever had with Pouliot, Brassard and Zuccarello. And I seem to recall some guy Dan Carcillo scoring our two biggest goals in the Flyers series.

 

[Fitzy]

We saw this in 2014-16 with our playoff series with the Penguins. The only thing that changed in 2016 was our depth got worse and worse while the Pens did a great job filling out their roster and Hagelin, Hornqvist, Bonino, Cullen, Wilson, Rust and Kuhnackl wrecked us.

The best team we had was also the best 4th line we ever had with Moore BB and Dorsett with our best 3rd line we ever had with Pouliot, Brassard and Zuccarello. And I seem to recall some guy Dan Carcillo scoring our two biggest goals in the Flyers series.

It's true.

I think Management is aiming more for a two line scoring group now. The issue with that great Rangers team was that there wasn't a clear cut 'go to' line or killer powerplay group. It was just three well balanced '2nd lines' as we used to say and an elite checking 4th line.

This time around, I think the target is for two '1st lines' followed by two elite checking lines. At least that's what the trade of Buch and the acquisition of Goodrow signals to me.

 

[Tom W]

Am I being a hopeless romantic or does this make anyone think once he gets cleared to play he may be coming back as a backup? Would kinda explain us not moving on Georgiev yet

Dont think it could happen while we are still paying his buyout

 

[Tob]

Shocked by the price of acquiring Eichel, Zibanejad's next contract AAV, and Drury's poor trade performances
Denying our center depth is in need of improvement from Zibanejad-Strome-Chytil and our cap will be in trouble no matter what
Anger at Adams' asking price, Zibanejad's contract negotiations and Drury's questionable decisions this off season
Bargaining against the idea that you need elite centers to win a cup, maybe all you need is size.
Depressed by the inevitable reality of losing our prospects on D and the wings in order to improve the center depth
Seeking ways this team can be long time contenders despite signing onto Kreider/Trouba for 7 years at the cost of Buchnevich/Schneider or Lundkvist
Finally accepting our Cup chances are over once Lafreniere is off his ELC.

We're doing pretty well so far this off season. Already on step 4.

 

[DialUp]

Finally accepting our Cup chances are over once Lafreniere is off his ELC.

And then we pass that torch directly to the perfectly managed NJ Devils where they will be contenders for 15 years.

 

[Tob]

And then we pass that torch directly to the perfectly managed NJ Devils where they will be contenders for 15 years.

I guess you too have heard they have hockey champion Ty Smith.

 

[DialUp]

I guess you too have heard they have hockey champion Ty Smith.

They wouldn't even trade him straight up for Fox because of cap implications. They are going to make the playoffs before we do with 20 million in cap space, just have to get Subban off the books!

 

[TheBloodyNine]

Either Larkin or Hertl would be the best options. Legit, top tier 2C's that can win faceoffs and make an impact on both sides of the puck. Further, both will cost less assets than a Barkov/Eichel tier player, and both are some of the best character guys in the game today. Would feasibly be able to retain the services of Mr. Zibby while having either one of them locked up long term.

Hertl has no knees and whatever needed to transpire for Larkin to become available clearly didn’t.

 

[thethirdhockeyman91]

Either Larkin or Hertl would be the best options. Legit, top tier 2C's that can win faceoffs and make an impact on both sides of the puck. Further, both will cost less assets than a Barkov/Eichel tier player, and both are some of the best character guys in the game today. Would feasibly be able to retain the services of Mr. Zibby while having either one of them locked up long term.

I cream my pants thinking of Hertl centering Panarin. I can totally see Hertl and Panarin having unreal chemistry. If I was Drury I would be doing everything I can to try and make that trade work.

 

[Tob]

They wouldn't even trade him straight up for Fox because of cap implications. They are going to make the playoffs before we do with 20 million in cap space, just have to get Subban off the books!

and Lindy is going to regrow a head full of hair while Gerard is still a bald vulture looking motherf***er.