Speculation: Roster Building Frenzy Part XX

[jay from jersey]

It isn't just LaFontaine.

Pavel Bure--we traded for him knowing his history with knee injuries. He played 39 games before retiring with a knee injury.
Lindros was another one--we never got more than one really full season from Lindros because of concussion issues that were well known before the trade.

Until the last couple of years, the Rangers never drafted in the top 3. That means that landing a superstar in their young prime was left to luck in the later rounds (ala Henrik). When these players DO come up, this team and its fans will overlook flashing neon warning lights because they want what we've never had. But those warning signs are there. And we get burned just about every time we play this game, but the pro-Eichel crowd is on the hockey equivalent of a gambler's high, going "things will be different this time." I don't want to roll the dice on the same mistake and hope that things will, against all odds, be different.

I'd rather see what kind of term we can get on a Zib contract. The AAV worries me less than the term (4-5 years at most). If he doesn't bite, then move him (and Strome) at 50% at the deadline. Use those assets--and the ones we didn't spend on Eichel--to either be cheap depth to fill out the roster around a FA center signing next summer, or as parts of a trade for a HEALTHY top 6 center. We will/should have some of the very best top six wingers in the league. We don't need a top 15 center (who will miss large chunks of the season on a regular basis). We need a pair of top 50-60 centers, one of which will preferably be adept at defense.

Dude we get it. You don’t like Eichel. For whatever reasons, but your only looking at it negatively. He’s younger then all of the examples you provided. The probability that he likely returns to normal is actually higher then his career being over.
Zibbys and Eichel’s games played for their first 5-6 seasons are pretty comparable. But Eichel has better numbers
Like I said, I’m more worried about Zibby getting another concussion at his age/next contract then Eichel injuring his neck again from 25-30

but more then likely they are going to be our top 2 centers for the next 5 years

 

[smoneil]

I didn't need a history recap on what I already know, you're missing my point that if you want to acquire young/elite centers you need to take advantage of the opportunity if it presents itself bc those guys at that age rarely are even available other than at the top of the draft. It's a calculated risk with potential immense and rare payoff.

I also have no clue why you just had a hypothetical conversation with yourself so you could try to justify a misguided argument with me that avoided my point.

I fully understood your point. My point is that when such players ARE available, it's for a reason, usually because of a significant injury. This team has done that before and been burned multiple times. You keep hoping for "immense payoff." It's like someone who buys "Gucci bags" from a guy on the street because you can NEVER get them for that price normally.

I didn't avoid your point. I simply pointed out the ways in which your progression of "points" were mere deflection and logical fallacy. And remember, YOU engaged with MY post. Don't try and spin me with justifications for going big broken name hunting (yet again), and then bitch about it when your arguments get exposed for the nonsense they are.

 

[jay from jersey]

I fully understood your point. My point is that when such players ARE available, it's for a reason, usually because of a significant injury. This team has done that before and been burned multiple times. You keep hoping for "immense payoff." It's like someone who buys "Gucci bags" from a guy on the street because you can NEVER get them for that price normally.

I didn't avoid your point. I simply pointed out the ways in which your progression of "points" were mere deflection and logical fallacy. And remember, YOU engaged with MY post. Don't try and spin me with justifications for going big broken name hunting (yet again), and then bitch about it when your arguments get exposed for the nonsense they are.

Eichel is available because he doesn’t want to be a Sabre. They would love for him to have surgery and come back and play for them. Ain’t gonna happen
There wouldn’t be more then 1-2 interested parties if they thought he was 1 hit from retirement. The flat covid cap has made this a lot more difficult without the Sabres taking back substantial cap. Something we do need to send there for more then a year or so. Drury should be using that to his advantage

 

[smoneil]

Dude we get it. You don’t like Eichel. For whatever reasons, but your only looking at it negatively. He’s younger then all of the examples you provided. The probability that he likely returns to normal is actually higher then his career being over.
Zibbys and Eichel’s games played for their first 5-6 seasons are pretty comparable. But Eichel has better numbers
Like I said, I’m more worried about Zibby getting another concussion at his age/next contract then Eichel injuring his neck again from 25-30

but more then likely they are going to be our top 2 centers for the next 5 years

And again--you are ignoring my point by focusing on things that are either unlikely or that I'm not arguing. I agree with you 100% on Zib. If he won't sign for a shorter term, then we should move him. The options, however, aren't Zib OR Eichel and nothing else. I explained how I would address the Center issue if Zib needed to be moved. And again--a disc replacement in the neck is not an age-related injury. Chronic concussion syndrome is not an age related injury. The fact that he is 25 means f*** all in this discussion, because the injury could, and very likely will, have an impact on his future career (more frequent trips to the IR, a change in his style of play--remember how passive Nash became when the concussions piled up?, etc, and this is even IF he's able to continue playing. I think he will, but I don't think he will ever be the same player). His age only means something in this romantic notion you all have about getting a top center in his prime.

I would be thrilled with a healthy Eichel. Show me where one is available.

 

[Synergy27]

I fully understood your point. My point is that when such players ARE available, it's for a reason, usually because of a significant injury. This team has done that before and been burned multiple times. You keep hoping for "immense payoff." It's like someone who buys "Gucci bags" from a guy on the street because you can NEVER get them for that price normally.

I didn't avoid your point. I simply pointed out the ways in which your progression of "points" were mere deflection and logical fallacy. And remember, YOU engaged with MY post. Don't try and spin me with justifications for going big broken name hunting (yet again), and then bitch about it when your arguments get exposed for the nonsense they are.

Spot on as usual.

 

[smoneil]

Eichel is available because he doesn’t want to be a Sabre. They would love for him to have surgery and come back and play for them. Ain’t gonna happen
There wouldn’t be more then 1-2 interested parties if they thought he was 1 hit from retirement. The flat covid cap has made this a lot more difficult without the Sabres taking back substantial cap. Something we do need to send there for more then a year or so. Drury should be using that to his advantage

Eichel likely does want to move, but the Sabres' issue is with the kind of surgery Eichel is insisting upon. Eichel wants the disc replacement because he thinks he'll have a greater range of motion than the fusion surgery. The Sabres want the fusion surgery because their insurance won't cover Eichel's contract if he goes experimental. They are more concerned with the money than with the player they would get back. Either way, both surgeries will impact his ability to play the game. This isn't a sprained ankle.

 

[jay from jersey]

And again--you are ignoring my point by focusing on things that are either unlikely or that I'm not arguing. I agree with you 100% on Zib. If he won't sign for a shorter term, then we should move him. The options, however, aren't Zib OR Eichel and nothing else. I explained how I would address the Center issue if Zib needed to be moved. And again--a disc replacement in the neck is not an age-related injury. Chronic concussion syndrome is not an age related injury. The fact that he is 25 means f*** all in this discussion, because the injury could, and very likely will, have an impact on his future career (more frequent trips to the IR, a change in his style of play--remember how passive Nash became when the concussions piled up?, etc, and this is even IF he's able to continue playing. I think he will, but I don't think he will ever be the same player). His age only means something in this romantic notion you all have about getting a top center in his prime.

I would be thrilled with a healthy Eichel. Show me where one is available.

Age is a huge factor in terms of how the body heals. All types of surgery, when done on younger patients have a higher success rate, and less potential for an injury to recur in the same area.
I know, your trying to point out it’s a typical ranger move cause he’s a star. But it’s really not.
The typical rangers move would be to get the guy that’s almost 30, a year or 2 looking for a huge payday whose best years are all used up already.
That’s not the case with Eichel, are there risks? Yes you’ve highlighted them and only them. None about the potential rewards though.
Trading for Eichel is a calculated risk, and if they do that, it’s because they feel like the success to failure rate is higher on the success side. Plain and simple

 

[smoneil]

Eichels injury is irrelevant. I don’t even know why it’s discussed. Nobody here knows the details of his medical situations. If the rangers trade for him I feel confident they did their due diligence on the situation and feel fine with it. They would have vastly more information at their disposal than the fan base which is permanently doom and gloom about everything

Just like they did with Bure and LaFontaine, right? In that article I linked, it even had quotes from people with vastly more information at their disposal. You don't need vast amounts of information to spot the obvious.

 

[Synergy27]

Eichel is available because he doesn’t want to be a Sabre. They would love for him to have surgery and come back and play for them. Ain’t gonna happen
There wouldn’t be more then 1-2 interested parties if they thought he was 1 hit from retirement. The flat covid cap has made this a lot more difficult without the Sabres taking back substantial cap. Something we do need to send there for more then a year or so. Drury should be using that to his advantage

Do you think there is any chance at all that the Sabres would be treating an uninjured Eichel drastically differently? Eichel wanting out is a key part of why he’s available but it for sure isn’t the only reason.

 

[Off Sides]

I used to be caught up in thinking they might build a long term team who could win a cup or a couple prior to this off-season, now just give me entertainment. Eichel is way more entertaining than seeing anything else they might do and if they happen to catch lightning in a bottle (pun intended) maybe they do win a cup.

Yet even if they do not, they were not on a course to win one anyway. They signed and traded for some 3rd and 4th liners and a bottom pair defender. Not just boring, not gonna win anything either. I mean I understand it's an appalling lack of patience on their part, yet it is what it is, and has been since they signed Panarin like a year or two-ish after they announced a rebuild. This was happening no matter who or what from that point on.

 

[smoneil]

Same here. More is lost by indecision then wrong decision.

Again, there are choices besides "taking the wild risky gamble" and "doing nothing." You two are framing this whole thing as if any decision OTHER than the one you want is being indecisive.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

I fully understood your point. My point is that when such players ARE available, it's for a reason, usually because of a significant injury. This team has done that before and been burned multiple times. You keep hoping for "immense payoff." It's like someone who buys "Gucci bags" from a guy on the street because you can NEVER get them for that price normally.

I didn't avoid your point. I simply pointed out the ways in which your progression of "points" were mere deflection and logical fallacy. And remember, YOU engaged with MY post. Don't try and spin me with justifications for going big broken name hunting (yet again), and then bitch about it when your arguments get exposed for the nonsense they are.

He's available because he doesn't want to play for Buffalo anymore. This is it. Has nothing to do with the injury.

Like you, I don't want Eichel. His overall injury history sketches me out and I don't like the idea of adding a 10 million dollar ticket on top of what we already have+ what we're going to have to pay certain guys in a year or 2 but you've got to stop doom casting and comparing his current ailment to other players who have separate issues which would be categorized as chronic or repetitive. The situations are not the same. Bringing up LaFontaine from 24 years ago doesn't really help make your point. Besides the injuries being completely different, no doctor would have cleared him to play today. People are more more hip to the severity of brain injuries now. Not a single medical professional has even so much as joked about Eichel hanging them up.

If we were discussing Tarasenko or Hertl? Fine. Those guys have had the types of injuries that fit the bill (Tarasenko with his 3 shoulder surgeries and Hertl with multiple knee surgeries, including popping his ACL in both knees.) This is not the same thing. He's been dinged up with various shit over the years (Ankle twice, ab, knee, neck, he cracked a rib shooting during the offseason) which shouldn't be glossed over, but he's also not a light sneeze away from being completely incapacitated.

 

[Synergy27]

Eichels injury is irrelevant. I don’t even know why it’s discussed. Nobody here knows the details of his medical situations. If the rangers trade for him I feel confident they did their due diligence on the situation and feel fine with it. They would have vastly more information at their disposal than the fan base which is permanently doom and gloom about everything

How can anyone have drastically more information about a future that hasn’t happened yet? There is no chance in hell that the risk for a serious injury in that area isn’t much higher for Eichel than it would be for someone who has never been injured.

This decision would be based on a risk assessment with enormous uncertainty no matter what.

 

[jay from jersey]

Do you think there is any chance at all that the Sabres would be treating an uninjured Eichel drastically differently? Eichel wanting out is a key part of why he’s available but it for sure isn’t the only reason.

He was available last year when there were internal rumblings of him wanting out. The price was just higher because there was no injury. Sabres fans don’t want to believe it but Adams was definitely fielding offers. He knew stuff was gonna start leaking
I get if you don’t want to pay the price of assets or have another 10 mill cap player, but the constant raving to try to devalue him, or say he wouldn’t help us here immensely when fully healthy is just wrong

 

[Synergy27]

He was available last year when there were internal rumblings of him wanting out. The price was just higher because there was no injury. Sabres fans don’t want to believe it but Adams was definitely fielding offers. He knew stuff was gonna start leaking

Yeah, and the Sabres tried desperately to surround him with talent enough to be competitive last offseason. They went into the year looking like a half decent team on paper.

They’d be doing everything they can to keep him if he wasn’t hurt. They want out of this problem badly but are at the mercy of PR.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

He was available last year when there were internal rumblings of him wanting out. The price was just higher because there was no injury. Sabres fans don’t want to believe it.

Not true.

Teams inquired, but the Sabres weren't ready to move on from him at the time (this is from Freidman.) He and his people have been very vocal about getting the f*** out this year.

Also from Freidman - we made an offer that they seriously considered (it didn't include the 1OA.) Always wondered what it was as its probably night and day from what was offered a few weeks ago.

 

[bleedblue94]

I fully understood your point. My point is that when such players ARE available, it's for a reason, usually because of a significant injury. This team has done that before and been burned multiple times. You keep hoping for "immense payoff." It's like someone who buys "Gucci bags" from a guy on the street because you can NEVER get them for that price normally.

I didn't avoid your point. I simply pointed out the ways in which your progression of "points" were mere deflection and logical fallacy. And remember, YOU engaged with MY post. Don't try and spin me with justifications for going big broken name hunting (yet again), and then bitch about it when your arguments get exposed for the nonsense they are.

I responded bc you compared a known walking 32 year old concussion who was on his last legs that we trade for 24 years ago to eichel. Somehow you think that's a legit comparison but when I bring up a guy like Crosby who was at the same general age while also being a weighted risk I'm the one out to lunch.

As I asked earlier, if you had had the chance to trade for crosby (at a discount bc under normal circumstances you wouldn't even sniff a possible trade for a Crosby type) at the time he was out with the misdiagnosed concussions that turned out to be neck injuries (the actual injury is irrelevant for purposes of the question) would you have been willing to roll the dice and take the risk on a player at that age and with the elite potential (Obviously eichel isn't Crosby as a player)?

Oh and forgive me to responding to a message on a message board, I forgot that's not what we do here.

 

[smoneil]

Age is a huge factor in terms of how the body heals. All types of surgery, when done on younger patients have a higher success rate, and less potential for an injury to recur in the same area.
I know, your trying to point out it’s a typical ranger move cause he’s a star. But it’s really not.
The typical rangers move would be to get the guy that’s almost 30, a year or 2 looking for a huge payday whose best years are all used up already.
That’s not the case with Eichel, are there risks? Yes you’ve highlighted them and only them. None about the potential rewards though.
Trading for Eichel is a calculated risk, and if they do that, it’s because they feel like the success to failure rate is higher on the success side. Plain and simple

Back surgery actually IS different. Most insurance companies won't even approve back/spinal surgery on younger patients because those surgeries have a high likelihood of leaving the patient with permanent issues/pain/limited motion. The fact that a player even NEEDS that kind of surgery should be a huge concern. The fact that the player wants the risky, untested in this context version of the surgery should be downright terrifying.

I also can't figure out why you and a few others keep throwing out the "if they make the trade it's because they've done their homework and think it won't be a problem" nugget. I literally gave you an article with quotations from LaFontaine, Smith, et al saying ALL of those things. Remind me again how that worked out?

My issue is that--if this goes wrong--it instantly f***s up the entire rebuild. And the likelihood of it going wrong is, whether you want to admit it or not, far higher than the chances of Eichel returning to perfect health.

 

[jay from jersey]

Yeah, and the Sabres tried desperately to surround him with talent enough to be competitive last offseason. They went into the year looking like a half decent team on paper.

They’d be doing everything they can to keep him if he wasn’t hurt. They want out of this problem badly but are at the mercy of PR.

I agree, they want him gone. They don’t want this side show to affect impressionable young kids, they don’t want him as captain, mainly they need a culture change and you can’t do that when your franchise player doesn’t want to play for you

 

[jay from jersey]

Back surgery actually IS different. Most insurance companies won't even approve back/spinal surgery on younger patients because those surgeries have a high likelihood of leaving the patient with permanent issues/pain/limited motion. The fact that a player even NEEDS that kind of surgery should be a huge concern. The fact that the player wants the risky, untested in this context version of the surgery should be downright terrifying.

I also can't figure out why you and a few others keep throwing out the "if they make the trade it's because they've done their homework and think it won't be a problem" nugget. I literally gave you an article with quotations from LaFontaine, Smith, et al saying ALL of those things. Remind me again how that worked out?

My issue is that--if this goes wrong--it instantly f***s up the entire rebuild. And the likelihood of it going wrong is, whether you want to admit it or not, far higher than the chances of Eichel returning to perfect health.

I’m not comparing what doctors thought about concussions a quarter century ago to disc replacement surgery now. Your ranting about this has reached Bern like levels. The examples you provided were all older used up players on the down side of their careers. Not a 24 year old superstar center.
And operations done on the back and neck are very very different.
And most insurance companies will cover neck surgeries. Especially when cord compression is an issue. They don’t want to get sued if you get paralyzed in a car crash

 

[smoneil]

I used to be caught up in thinking they might build a long term team who could win a cup or a couple prior to this off-season, now just give me entertainment. Eichel is way more entertaining than seeing anything else they might do and if they happen to catch lightning in a bottle (pun intended) maybe they do win a cup.

Yet even if they do not, they were not on a course to win one anyway. They signed and traded for some 3rd and 4th liners and a bottom pair defender. Not just boring, not gonna win anything either. I mean I understand it's an appalling lack of patience on their part, yet it is what it is, and has been since they signed Panarin like a year or two-ish after they announced a rebuild. This was happening no matter who or what from that point on.

This is an over-reaction, in my view. I wasn't happy with the return on the Buch trade. I wasn't happy that they wasted a 3rd round pick on a guy who was scratched last year and was likely seen as a cap dump by VGK. But none of the guys brought in (Reaves, Blais, Goodrow, Hunt, etc) are replacing anyone from the rebuild. Those guys are replacing the non-name bottom six guys like Blackwell, Howden, and Smith. Nemeth was a fantastic signing, and Nemeth/Lundkvist will instantly be better than Johnson/Hajek/Smith.

I have my concerns about Drury, but the rebuild can still proceed apace. Unless they screw the pooch and blow our prospects and cap space on Eichel.

 

[Off Sides]

@smoneil is correct in all he saying, yet the Rangers have never operated by not doing the opposite, your examples prove as much.

Panarin is not getting any younger, Fox, etc are going to cost a ton. Rangers are what they are.

No matter how correct you are, Rangers are reserving just enough cap space to fit Eichel.

 

[will1066]

He's available because he doesn't want to play for Buffalo anymore. This is it. Has nothing to do with the injury.

Like you, I don't want Eichel. His overall injury history sketches me out and I don't like the idea of adding a 10 million dollar ticket on top of what we already have+ what we're going to have to pay certain guys in a year or 2 but you've got to stop doom casting and comparing his current ailment to other players who have separate issues which would be categorized as chronic or repetitive. The situations are not the same. Bringing up LaFontaine from 24 years ago doesn't really help make your point. Besides the injuries being completely different, no doctor would have cleared him to play today. People are more more hip to the severity of brain injuries now. Not a single medical professional has even so much as joked about Eichel hanging them up.

If we were discussing Tarasenko or Hertl? Fine. Those guys have had the types of injuries that fit the bill (Tarasenko with his 3 shoulder surgeries and Hertl with multiple knee surgeries, including popping his ACL in both knees.) This is not the same thing. He's been dinged up with various shit over the years (Ankle twice, ab, knee, neck, he cracked a rib shooting during the offseason) which shouldn't be glossed over, but he's also not a light sneeze away from being completely incapacitated.

Sneezing can cause pretty violent motion of the neck.

 

[smoneil]

He's available because he doesn't want to play for Buffalo anymore. This is it. Has nothing to do with the injury.

Like you, I don't want Eichel. His overall injury history sketches me out and I don't like the idea of adding a 10 million dollar ticket on top of what we already have+ what we're going to have to pay certain guys in a year or 2 but you've got to stop doom casting and comparing his current ailment to other players who have separate issues which would be categorized as chronic or repetitive. The situations are not the same. Bringing up LaFontaine from 24 years ago doesn't really help make your point. Besides the injuries being completely different, no doctor would have cleared him to play today. People are more more hip to the severity of brain injuries now. Not a single medical professional has even so much as joked about Eichel hanging them up.

If we were discussing Tarasenko or Hertl? Fine. Those guys have had the types of injuries that fit the bill (Tarasenko with his 3 shoulder surgeries and Hertl with multiple knee surgeries, including popping his ACL in both knees.) This is not the same thing. He's been dinged up with various shit over the years (Ankle twice, ab, knee, neck, he cracked a rib shooting during the offseason) which shouldn't be glossed over, but he's also not a light sneeze away from being completely incapacitated.

I take it from the bolded that you've never had a serious back/neck injury? My lower back got screwed up playing soccer in 2013. If I so much as bend the wrong way (and what qualifies as "the wrong way" seems to change regularly), I'm on the ground is debilitating pain. From the parade of doctors I've seen (and from doctors I know personally), I can tell you--they don't know a whole lot about how to fix issues with the spine. As I said in an earlier post--I doubt he hangs up his skates, but I equally doubt that he ever looks quite the same in them.

 

[Blais to Win]

How much cap space is left after the Rangers sign Shesterkin and the bonus amount is taken into consideration?