Speculation: Roster Building Frenzy Part XX

[jay from jersey]

Good for huska, he brought some stability to the goaltending situation in Hartford when it was shakey. Hopefully he could go on a run with the influx of new talent down there. I still think he could be a solid NHL back up. He looked good in the only preseason game I saw him play in with the big club

 

[Lindberg Cheese]

Good for huska, he brought some stability to the goaltending situation in Hartford when it was shakey. Hopefully he could go on a run with the influx of new talent down there. I still think he could be a solid NHL back up. He looked good in the only preseason game I saw him play in with the big club

I watched him a bit during the Worlds and thought he did well, dunno if stats back that up or not

 

[Modest Grouse]

The correct terminology for Nobody these days is persons who don’t matter

I prefer Gauthiers.

 

[bigdog16]

Congrats my man. You really told me as you cry about Chris Kreider and his “crazy” $6 million aav while producing at a 25-30 goal pace.

You’re right your take is brutal. As someone else said, grass is always greener on the other side.

Edit: Also there is an Edit function in which you can edit the first post you had quoting me. Rather than double posting. Basic stuff.

Im pretty dead set on my opinion that Chris Kreider is not worth 6m. Hes also scored 30 goals zero times in his career. Feel like im arguing with Adam Herman on twitter.

You can also take your edit post function and stick it extremely far up your a**, and I will make a note to double post you from now on just because I know it pisses you off so much

 

[jay from jersey]

I watched him a bit during the Worlds and thought he did well, dunno if stats back that up or not

Yea, I thought he moves very well laterally, especially for a big man. Gave off Ben bishop vibes. But obviously not as well rounded or good as bishop. Don’t think he can ever be a starter. But for 20 or so games a year I think he could be an asset

 

[bleedblue94]

Looking back at this, there are quite a few eerie parallels:

HOCKEY; Rangers Finally Make Deal for LaFontaine (Published 1997)








For all the folks who would be fine with acquiring Eichel "if healthy," bear this cautionary tale in mind. LaFontaine was declared healthy as well. His career was over 67 games later (after putting up 62 points in that span). For once, can this team learn from its history?

The scariest part of this article? The fact that it was published in my first year at college. Never read the dates under the headlines, haha.

Jesus Christ we traded a 2nd round pick for LaFontaine and he was a walking concussion at that point, and everyone knew that. Even so the risk was worth the price. They draft Andrew
peters with the pick. It's not a parallel.

 

[Off Sides]

Gonna need Huska to backup Geo while Shesty holds out.

 

[smoneil]

Jesus Christ we traded a 2nd round pick for LaFontaine and he was a walking concussion at that point, and everyone knew that. Even so the risk was worth the price. They draft Andrew f***ing peters with the pick. It's not a parallel.

Yeah, if you only look at things that have nothing to do with the point, then it's not a parallel at all.

When you buy a broken toy, you shouldn't be shocked when it breaks again. The main thing that ISN'T the same about the two situations, as you pointed out, is the price. This time around, we'd be paying a significantly higher price (and having cap considerations that weren't a thing in 1997) to re-learn the same lesson.

 

[RGY]

Unclutch your pearls.

If you get so worked up about player valuation on a message board that you have to resort to personal attacks, you’re being overly sensitive.

Don’t put that on others. It’s all you.

Is it resorting to personal attacks when its all facts? Maybe we should sticky some of your posts at the top of every page, I think your memory is deceiving you.

 

[Glen Sathers Cigar]

Jesus Christ we traded a 2nd round pick for LaFontaine and he was a walking concussion at that point, and everyone knew that. Even so the risk was worth the price. They draft Andrew
peters with the pick. It's not a parallel.

Plus Lafontaine was 32 at the time.

 

[Boris Zubov]

I had a feeling Mika was following my posts closely. This confirms it.

 

[smoneil]

Plus Lafontaine was 32 at the time.

Which again, has nothing to do with the point. He was nearly a PPG player before he got the final concussion. He didn't retire from arthritis. He retired from the exact same injury that should have been a red flag re: trading for him. I get that some of you want your shiny new toy, but sometimes you need to learn from past mistakes. Eichel is like tripling down on the LaFontaine mistake at a much more significant cost.

 

[RGY]

Im pretty dead set on my opinion that Chris Kreider is not worth 6m. Hes also scored 30 goals zero times in his career. Feel like im arguing with Adam Herman on twitter.

You can also take your edit post function and stick it extremely far up your a**, and I will make a note to double post you from now on just because I know it pisses you off so much

Never said he has scored 30 goals in his career. I said he was pacing at 25-30 goals last season, which he was, so there’s that.

Kreider has scored at a 0.60 PPG pace. He has extremely strong possession metrics throughout his career. And that has carried into the postseason. He is capable of playing in all situations and is a leader in the room.

Those are all facts. Whether your like them or not with your personal disdain for him over a $6 million AAV, which was given to him before a global pandemic hit with the anticipation the cap would rise. You want to continue to complain about a $6 million AAV cap hit and fantasize about a trade that wont happen or what it would be like to have Anders Lee or Evander shitbag Kane, have it my man. None of it is happening.

 

[bleedblue94]

Yeah, if you only look at things that have nothing to do with the point, then it's not a parallel at all.

When you buy a broken toy, you shouldn't be shocked when it breaks again. The main thing that ISN'T the same about the two situations, as you pointed out, is the price. This time around, we'd be paying a significantly higher price (and having cap considerations that weren't a thing in 1997) to re-learn the same lesson.

If given the chance to aquire Crosby in 2012 when he had the neck injury and was going through an actual experimental treatment would you regret missing that chance? It's amazing how people don't want to take any risk acquiring elite talent at a discount bc of an injury (that can go on ltir if needed) AND simultaneously don't want to pay the cost it would take to acquire healthy elite talent.

If eichel were healthy teams wouldn't even be getting a sniff at him. He is a young and supremely talented center the likes of which rarely become available at this age.

 

[Boris Zubov]

This post gives me the creeps. Sandusky was my partner in a Big 33 golf tournament not long before the shit hit the fan.

That must've felt very surreal when it all unraveled.

 

[NYblades]

This may have already been posted, nothing new that hasn't already been discussed.

Which teams can actually afford a Jack Eichel trade?

 

[smoneil]

If given the chance to aquire Crosby in 2012 when he had the neck injury and was going through actual experimental treatment would you regret missing that chance? It's amazing how people don't want to take any risk acquiring elite talent at a discount bc of an injury (that can go on ltir if needed) AND simultaneously don't want to pay the cost it would take to acquire healthy elite talent.

If eichel were healthy teams wouldn't even be getting a sniff at him. He is a young and supremely talented center the likes of which rarely become available at this age.

Swing and a miss. Strike three. First of all, Crosby was the consensus best player in the league in 2012. Four of Crosby's first 5 seasons were 20 points clear of Eichel's career high. The fifth season, he only played 53 games. Crosby in 2012 was the best player in the game. Eichel is in the conversation as one of the top 15 centers. Not comparable players.

Second of all, the injury situation wasn't the same. Pittsburgh thought he had another concussion, and there were legit concerns that his career was over. There was nothing "experimental" about his treatment. He was misdiagnosed with a concussion when he actually had a soft-tissue swelling problem in his neck. Once they properly diagnosed him, he was treated with an injection to bring the swelling down.

That brings us to third of all, which is the fact that Crosby got an injection whereas Eichel wants a surgery that has almost never been performed on a high end athlete and never on one who plays a "big 4" sport. Needing a shot and needing an artificial spinal disc are just a wee bit different from each other, no?

So your "response" to my point is that MAYBE Eichel was misdiagnosed, and can actually be fixed with a shot, and wouldn't I feel silly for passing him up then?

You have now gone from pointing to irrelevant details (the trade currency), to focusing on the age of the players (as if chronic concussions or a broken neck don't have the same impact on a 25 year old as a 32 year old) to now trying to say that the REAL parallel is the Crosby case--a situation with a much better player who had a significantly lesser injury that was misdiagnosed. Might be worth the time to try and figure out why you are so desperately twisting yourself into logical pretzels to avoid seeing the obvious parallels between the Eichel scenario and the LaFontaine acquisition.

I'm going to stick with "learning from past mistakes" and not trading for broken players.

 

[TheBloodyNine]

Eichel or not trade Strome. You need to see what you got in Chytil.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

So far I've seen people say that Eichel has a broken neck, a degenerative neck or no neck at all.

Unless you're a no-necker, you guys should really stop playing cyber-doc.

 

[jay from jersey]

If given the chance to aquire Crosby in 2012 when he had the neck injury and was going through actual experimental treatment would you regret missing that chance? It's amazing how people don't want to take any risk acquiring elite talent at a discount bc of an injury (that can go on ltir if needed) AND simultaneously don't want to pay the cost it would take to acquire healthy elite talent.

If eichel were healthy teams wouldn't even be getting a sniff at him. He is a young and supremely talented center the likes of which rarely become available at this age.

this is the way I see it. Just because it happened with LaFontaine, doesn’t mean the same thing is destined to happen to Eichel. Especially at the contract he’s signed for from 25-30. They type of injury is also very different as well. But putting that aside, Eichel is an immense talent that ordinarily wouldn’t be available. I’m not advocating trading the farm for him, you won’t have to, but your not going to get him by sending nothing of value back either. It’s a calculated risk when making a trade for any star player that has a bad injury.
You weigh the pros and cons and cost. Players with his talent in his age range which coincides with our best years to make a run at a cup I might add, rarely if ever come onto the market. There are some in the front office and doctors as well that may feel that Zibby on a 30 plus contract is the bigger risk with his concussion history. They might also feel they get out from under Eichel’s contracts before his 30s when the injuries and “ wear and tear” from his surgery would start to be a nagging issue.
It’s also the year 2021, medicine has come along way and getting better everyday. In my mind, there is no reason to not want to add Jack Eichel and form an even more potent top 6. He is a line driver, has panarin type of ability, however you want to put it. He’s in that conversation.
The only hold up is the cost to acquire him, which I’m sure Drury is trying to get it down the best and lowest as possible where it doesn’t cut out a leg from the organization.
In this situation, with a healthy motivated Eichel fresh out of surgery, we might have not even seen the best he’s yet to play in a new environment with a better all around team and line mates.
If the price isn’t crippling, it’s a chance I would take, and I think Drury/ rangers FO feel the same way.

 

[bleedblue94]

Swing and a miss. Strike three. First of all, Crosby was the consensus best player in the league in 2012. Four of Crosby's first 5 seasons were 20 points clear of Eichel's career high. The fifth season, he only played 53 games. Crosby in 2012 was the best player in the game. Eichel is in the conversation as one of the top 15 centers. Not comparable players.

Second of all, the injury situation wasn't the same. Pittsburgh thought he had another concussion, and there were legit concerns that his career was over. There was nothing "experimental" about his treatment. He was misdiagnosed with a concussion when he actually had a soft-tissue swelling problem in his neck. Once they properly diagnosed him, he was treated with an injection to bring the swelling down.

That brings us to third of all, which is the fact that Crosby got an injection whereas Eichel wants a surgery that has almost never been performed on a high end athlete and never on one who plays a "big 4" sport. Needing a shot and needing an artificial spinal disc are just a wee bit different from each other, no?

So your "response" to my point is that MAYBE Eichel was misdiagnosed, and can actually be fixed with a shot, and wouldn't I feel silly for passing him up then?

You have now gone from pointing to irrelevant details (the trade currency), to focusing on the age of the players (as if chronic concussions or a broken neck don't have the same impact on a 25 year old as a 32 year old) to now trying to say that the REAL parallel is the Crosby case--a situation with a much better player who had a significantly lesser injury that was misdiagnosed. Might be worth the time to try and figure out why you are so desperately twisting yourself into logical pretzels to avoid seeing the obvious parallels between the Eichel scenario and the LaFontaine acquisition.

I'm going to stick with "learning from past mistakes" and not trading for broken players.

I didn't need a history recap on what I already know, you're missing my point that if you want to acquire young/elite centers you need to take advantage of the opportunity if it presents itself bc those guys at that age rarely are even available other than at the top of the draft. It's a calculated risk with potential immense and rare payoff.

I also have no clue why you just had a hypothetical conversation with yourself so you could try to justify a misguided argument with me that avoided my point.

 

[bleedblue94]

this is the way I see it. Just because it happened with LaFontaine, doesn’t mean the same thing is destined to happen to Eichel. Especially at the contract he’s signed for from 25-30. They type of injury is also very different as well. But putting that aside, Eichel is an immense talent that ordinarily wouldn’t be available. I’m not advocating trading the farm for him, you won’t have to, but your not going to get him by sending nothing of value back either. It’s a calculated risk when making a trade for any star player that has a bad injury.
You weigh the pros and cons and cost. Players with his talent in his age range which coincides with our best years to make a run at a cup I might add, rarely if ever come onto the market.

We have chips to use, and I'd prefer to use them on a calculated gamble for a homerun that helps shape the organization's future

 

[smoneil]

this is the way I see it. Just because it happened with LaFontaine, doesn’t mean the same thing is destined to happen to Eichel. Especially at the contract he’s signed for from 25-30. They type of injury is also very different as well. But putting that aside, Eichel is an immense talent that ordinarily wouldn’t be available. I’m not advocating trading the farm for him, you won’t have to, but your not going to get him by sending nothing of value back either. It’s a calculated risk when making a trade for any star player that has a bad injury.
You weigh the pros and cons and cost. Players with his talent in his age range which coincides with our best years to make a run at a cup I might add, rarely if ever come onto the market. There are some in the front office and doctors as well that may feel that Zibby on a 30 plus contract is the bigger risk with his concussion history. They might also feel they get out from under Eichel’s contracts before his 30s when the injuries and “ wear and tear” from his surgery would start to be a nagging issue.

It isn't just LaFontaine.

Pavel Bure--we traded for him knowing his history with knee injuries. He played 39 games before retiring with a knee injury.
Lindros was another one--we never got more than one really full season from Lindros because of concussion issues that were well known before the trade.

Until the last couple of years, the Rangers never drafted in the top 3. That means that landing a superstar in their young prime was left to luck in the later rounds (ala Henrik). When these players DO come up, this team and its fans will overlook flashing neon warning lights because they want what we've never had. But those warning signs are there. And we get burned just about every time we play this game, but the pro-Eichel crowd is on the hockey equivalent of a gambler's high, going "things will be different this time." I don't want to roll the dice on the same mistake and hope that things will, against all odds, be different.

I'd rather see what kind of term we can get on a Zib contract. The AAV worries me less than the term (4-5 years at most). If he doesn't bite, then move him (and Strome) at 50% at the deadline. Use those assets--and the ones we didn't spend on Eichel--to either be cheap depth to fill out the roster around a FA center signing next summer, or as parts of a trade for a HEALTHY top 6 center. We will/should have some of the very best top six wingers in the league. We don't need a top 15 center (who will miss large chunks of the season on a regular basis). We need a pair of top 50-60 centers, one of which will preferably be adept at defense.

 

[jay from jersey]

We have chips to use, and I'd prefer to use them on a calculated gamble for a homerun that helps shape the organization's future

Same here. More is lost by indecision then wrong decision.

 

[SA16]

Eichels injury is irrelevant. I don’t even know why it’s discussed. Nobody here knows the details of his medical situations. If the rangers trade for him I feel confident they did their due diligence on the situation and feel fine with it. They would have vastly more information at their disposal than the fan base which is permanently doom and gloom about everything