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Value of: ROR to the Leafs at the deadline.

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Rants Mulliniks said:
Not entirely sure what that has to do with someone basically claiming the Leaf cupboard is empty? I mean, he might as well hang a sign saying “I don’t follow but have an opinion”.
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How many? About 20. Im not gonna name every team in the league with better talent pools just because you overrate your prospects but just in the atlantic atm. Wings, Sabres, Sens and Habs...

And I agree, Sandin, Knies and Niemela look like good pieces. And? I didnt say it was empty, I wrote it wasnt solid.
 
ROR and Tank at 50% I’d imagine would cost more than 2 firsts and Knies.

Not a knock on Knies, he looks good and I would love to have him in the Blues system.

However, that’s two bonafide proven top line talents and those are two late firsts. Unless Armstrong is confident that Knies is a difference maker next year I don’t see how that’s going to be enough.

As a Blues fan I’m all for selling off the UFAs (Barbashev, Tarasenko, ROR) as well as shopping almost every defensemen (not sure you could find a taker without paying for Scandella, Krug, Leddy) I don’t think exploring the market on Schenn or Saad would hurt either but would be much more stubborn on the return for them.

I think that a guy like ROR is someone that almost every contender would look to add for that cap hit especially given that the money owed is much much lower. I’d expect at bar minimum a 1st, possibly even another first or a higher end prospect from a team (Knies would be kind of the bar there at least in this scenario) as well as a 2nd or another first in the next couple of drafts. Will he ultimately return that? Probably not but the list of bidders would surely be pretty high given his skill set.

Tarasenko I would also at bare minimum expect a first and a young player in return, not necessarily a guy regarded as an A tier prospect but Tarasenko is a proven goal scorer who was pretty much a PPG player last season.

Now with the buyers market seemingly being what it very well could be with a lot of high end talent, it brings about the question of who settles a bit for a still good player but cheaper option? But these are two premium assets and I’m hoping Doug isn’t neive enough to think that this team has a chance due to past success as constructed. Because our back end is poorly constructed and there’s not a lot of hope of turnaround given how we don’t have a LD capable of playing against teams with top end talent for 20+ a night.

It would also be beneficial for us to search for a defenseman in return in one of these trades that’s close to ready to help contribute because our prospect pool is pretty barren there. Tucker, Kessel and Perunovich have showed some promise, but I don’t have much faith in the first two being in a competitive top 4 and Perunovich can’t seem to stay healthy and he’s not essentially what we have in Krug.
 
seanlinden said:
I don't believe there is any possibility that the Leafs pursue both ROR and Tarasenko. There likely isn't a way to make the cap work, and the Leafs really don't have the assets.

Of course, ROR would be the preferred target. If available in the rental market, he's probably the #1 commodity. I'd imagine that you're talking about at least 2 of Knies/1st/Sandin or Liljegren plus another asset.... maybe even all 3 of those pieces.

There's also the challenge in that the only way to fit ROR in is with Muzzin forsure done (or you move Kerfoot and do some minor finnagling elsewhere to make up the $250k). If Muzzin is done, a blueline that consists of Rielly, Brodie, Holl, Sandin, Liljegren & Giordano is the obvious weakness... even if they have another 4 or 5 NHL-quality dmen that can step in for injuries.

If Dubas was a GM that's 1-2 years into the job, then I'd say there's no way he blows that kind of haul on a rental like ROR.

But, given that Dubas seems to be on his last leash, and 2 of your biggest stars will each be a year away from UFA this summer, it seems like the exact "all-in" move that Dubas would probably be best served making.
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Your proposed deal for ROR is truly ridiculous. I don't disagree with most of your point but we aren't trading Liljegren under any scenario and Sandin is trending in that direction as well but certainly not in a deal with our top prospect and a 1st round pick for a rental....no matter how good the rental is.
 
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BleedBlue14 said:
ROR and Tank at 50% I’d imagine would cost more than 2 firsts and Knies.

Not a knock on Knies, he looks good and I would love to have him in the Blues system.

However, that’s two bonafide proven top line talents and those are two late firsts. Unless Armstrong is confident that Knies is a difference maker next year I don’t see how that’s going to be enough.

As a Blues fan I’m all for selling off the UFAs (Barbashev, Tarasenko, ROR) as well as shopping almost every defensemen (not sure you could find a taker without paying for Scandella, Krug, Leddy) I don’t think exploring the market on Schenn or Saad would hurt either but would be much more stubborn on the return for them.

I think that a guy like ROR is someone that almost every contender would look to add for that cap hit especially given that the money owed is much much lower. I’d expect at bar minimum a 1st, possibly even another first or a higher end prospect from a team (Knies would be kind of the bar there at least in this scenario) as well as a 2nd or another first in the next couple of drafts. Will he ultimately return that? Probably not but the list of bidders would surely be pretty high given his skill set.

Tarasenko I would also at bare minimum expect a first and a young player in return, not necessarily a guy regarded as an A tier prospect but Tarasenko is a proven goal scorer who was pretty much a PPG player last season.

Now with the buyers market seemingly being what it very well could be with a lot of high end talent, it brings about the question of who settles a bit for a still good player but cheaper option? But these are two premium assets and I’m hoping Doug isn’t neive enough to think that this team has a chance due to past success as constructed. Because our back end is poorly constructed and there’s not a lot of hope of turnaround given how we don’t have a LD capable of playing against teams with top end talent for 20+ a night.

It would also be beneficial for us to search for a defenseman in return in one of these trades that’s close to ready to help contribute because our prospect pool is pretty barren there. Tucker, Kessel and Perunovich have showed some promise, but I don’t have much faith in the first two being in a competitive top 4 and Perunovich can’t seem to stay healthy and he’s not essentially what we have in Krug.
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If they could land both there is no combination of picks and prospects I wouldn't move because that would make the Leafs LOADED
 
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Imagine if Leafs trade 1st + Knies + Lilgegren/Sandin for ROR and still get bounced in the 1st round. :laugh:
 
Space Coyote said:
Imagine if Leafs trade 1st + Knies + Lilgegren/Sandin for ROR and still get bounced in the 1st round. :laugh:
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Liljegren and Sandin are not interchangeable. Lilly has far more value then Sandin like 5 x the value and is playing as a top 4 shutdown RD making 1.4 million. In fact I wouldn't even trade Liljegren straight up for ROR.

For ROR you are looking at something to the equivalency of a 1st round pick + 3rd round pick or a top prospect like Robertson/Knies and a 2nd round pick.

If they over bid it would look something like Robertson + 1st.
 
Hobnobs said:
How many? About 20. Im not gonna name every team in the league with better talent pools just because you overrate your prospects but just in the atlantic atm. Wings, Sabres, Sens and Habs...

And I agree, Sandin, Knies and Niemela look like good pieces. And? I didnt say it was empty, I wrote it wasnt solid.
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Don't be alarmed if some don't agree. If your argument is "blue chip prospect", you may have a point but when it comes to producing actual NHL players in volume, there are very few teams doing as well as Toronto (and believe it or not, it has been documented and analyzed going back a ways). If you walk away from a draft with 2 NHL players, you have done well, on average. Agasin Toronto has 6 from 2018 seeing NHL time and several others from subsequent drafts faring very well at their current levels. They don't all have to be blue chippers. In a cap world the biggest key is being able to replace from within.

By the by, I would hope the cripes teams like Detroit, Buffalo, Ottawa and Montreal have some good prospects. You can't be that bad that long and not have something.
 
Rants Mulliniks said:
Don't be alarmed if some don't agree. If your argument is "blue chip prospect", you may have a point but when it comes to producing actual NHL players in volume, there are very few teams doing as well as Toronto (and believe it or not, it has been documented and analyzed going back a ways). If you walk away from a draft with 2 NHL players, you have done well, on average. Agasin Toronto has 6 from 2018 seeing NHL time and several others from subsequent drafts faring very well at their current levels. They don't all have to be blue chippers. In a cap world the biggest key is being able to replace from within.

By the by, I would hope the cripes teams like Detroit, Buffalo, Ottawa and Montreal have some good prospects. You can't be that bad that long and not have something.
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I love how you say you have 6 NHL players in the 2018 draft. One of the players has played like 7 minutes and another one isnt even in your system anymore. Never said you cant develop NHL talent either but this is a trade thread. Your team doesnt really have that many enticing prospects compared to other teams. Which was my point, not that you can't produce NHL talent.

Should I feel hurt by your last statement, mr 1967?
 
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ROR is exactly the type of gritty two-way drive the net player that the Leafs need more of.

In saying that, the price tag would be very high, and Leafs would have no capspace to re-sign him. Leafs have generally targeted players they were either confident they could re-sign (e.g. Giordano), were already signed for more than one season (e.g. Muzzin), or who they would at least have a chance to re-sign given expected caphit (e.g. Foligno). They really haven't targeted many pure rentals that they know would be walking out the door a few months later.
 
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613Leafer said:
ROR is exactly the type of gritty two-way drive the net player that the Leafs need more of.

In saying that, the price tag would be very high, and Leafs would have no capspace to re-sign him. Leafs have generally targeted players they were either confident they could re-sign (e.g. Giordano), were already signed for more than one season (e.g. Muzzin), or who they would at least have a chance to re-sign given expected caphit (e.g. Foligno). They really haven't targeted many pure rentals that they know would be walking out the door a few months later.
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I'm not sure that they would know they can't sign ROR
 
To
Blues
2023 1st
2024 1st (Top ten protected)
2024 2nd conditional on conference finals
Kerfoot

To
Leafs
ROR 50.% retained

Only if he can be extended.
 
Space Coyote said:
Imagine if Leafs trade 1st + Knies + Lilgegren/Sandin for ROR and still get bounced in the 1st round. :laugh:
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we aren't trading any of that for him. It's a deep draft, were keeping our first unless it's for a significant upgrade. Knies and lil and sandin are non starters for a rental... So.......

Good player but our room is fine and we don't need a guy coming in and messing With the stereo...we good!!
 
Zur En Arrh said:
we aren't trading any of that for him. It's a deep draft, were keeping our first unless it's for a significant upgrade. Knies and lil and sandin are non starters for a rental... So.......

Good player but our room is fine and we don't need a guy coming in and messing With the stereo...we good!!
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They would absolutely trade a 1st for ROR he'd be a HUGE upgrade
 
Hobnobs said:
How many? About 20. Im not gonna name every team in the league with better talent pools just because you overrate your prospects but just in the atlantic atm. Wings, Sabres, Sens and Habs...

And I agree, Sandin, Knies and Niemela look like good pieces. And? I didnt say it was empty, I wrote it wasnt solid.
Click to expand...

The high end talent is lacking but we could trade every pick we have for the next 5 years and still be graduating 1-3 prospects to full-time NHL roles for the rest of our window. Same as Tampa, there's nothing in their pool that grabs your attention but they find a way to graduate a Colton or a Perbix instead of paying someone 3+ mil for the same job in UFA.
 
Scorey Perry said:
If ROR is piece you for chance at a Cup would be worth it. Leafs first be late and Knies, like any other prospect, is some unknown there.

Would you give up same for Monahan 50% retained?
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For Monahan? No, I don't see him getting a 1st from anyone, never did and now that he's injured depending on how long he's injured that value could drop more.

To me if he comes back quick and is fine his PEAK value is a 2nd and a prospect and no that prospect is not Matthew Knies.
 
Tank
ROR 50%

For

Rielly
Engvall
1rst round
Knies

Bunting Matthews Tarasenko
Kerfoot Tavares Marner
Robertson (inj) ROR Nylander
Jankrok Kampf ZAR

Brodie Holl
Sandin Lilly
Gio Timmons
Mete Benn

Murr
Sammy

Works for me.
 
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ROR wins faceoffs
ROR kills penalties
ROR shuts down other teams top lines(see Colorado last year)
ROR scores big goals at important times
ROR is built for playoff hockey!

The Toronto fan who says they are fine and says they need nobody messing with the locker room sterio!
This guy would be your band leader in the playoffs
 
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