Ron Francis Or Anze Kopitar?
- Thread starter DitchMarner
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BraveCanadian
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- Jun 30, 2010
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Oh wow.. I had never thought about it before but these guys are so similar.
Big guys, primarily playmakers, great defensively.. both good at faceoffs although Francis was great at them.. Kopitar has been the man in LA forever and Francis was Ronnie Franchise in Hartford and then the matchup center and occasional #1 for Pittsburgh during their prime time in the 90s..
even?
Big guys, primarily playmakers, great defensively.. both good at faceoffs although Francis was great at them.. Kopitar has been the man in LA forever and Francis was Ronnie Franchise in Hartford and then the matchup center and occasional #1 for Pittsburgh during their prime time in the 90s..
even?
Kopitar easily. Not that Francis wasn't good and his longevity is impressive, but anyhow mostly a supplementary player that often wasn't a top 3 forward in his team, whereas Anže has been doing the heavy lifting successfully throughout his career.
Ron Frances is 5th is all time pts and Kopitar is 48. I don’t think whatever defensive advantage over his career Kopitar may have had can come close to making up the offensive difference. Career is Francis pretty easily.
Now peak is a much closer comparison and might be Kopitar, but again I don’t think it makes up the difference in career.
For me it’s gotta be Francis and I don’t think Kopitar can catch up. Say what you want about counting stats but 5th all time, over ppg in over 1700 games while also plying Selke calibre defense. Francis is one of the all time greats and kopitar is just not there, despite being a great player in his own right.
Now peak is a much closer comparison and might be Kopitar, but again I don’t think it makes up the difference in career.
For me it’s gotta be Francis and I don’t think Kopitar can catch up. Say what you want about counting stats but 5th all time, over ppg in over 1700 games while also plying Selke calibre defense. Francis is one of the all time greats and kopitar is just not there, despite being a great player in his own right.
DitchMarner
TheGlitchintheSwitch
I think Francis' career point total is misleading. He's nowhere close to the fifth best offensive player ever. I'm not sure he's even top 50.
He has close to 2000 points because he played for ages and spent many years in a high scoring era and played with Jagr at his peak. I'm not saying he wasn't talented, but it's worth noting that four of his five seasons as a top ten scorer came when he played with PIT (where they had many other weapons). When he was the franchise centre in Hartford, he never cracked the top ten in scoring. He was a top ten scorer in 2002 playing for CAR, however.
norrisnick
The best...
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That's a function of playing most of his career in the 80s and early 90s. Particularly his stint with the Pens. Every bit of Kopitar's offense, he had to do the heavy lifting leading the Kings in scoring what? 15 out of 18 seasons? Kopitar never got to play 2nd or 3rd fiddle behind the likes of Lemieux and Jagr. Ron led his various teams in scoring only 7 times.
He was the best player on Hartford for 9.5 seasons and then the third best forward on Pitts for another 7.5 years where he was doing the heavy lifting on defence (won a Selke) and the two guys in front of him were top 5 if not top 3 players all time (and who were in no way 2-way players like Francis).
He became a supplementary player only after rejoining the Canes in his 35+ year old season.
I’d probably go with Kopitar given we saw him as “the guy” at center on a two time cup team but I think they’re pretty close. Francis is a weird one because I think he can get overrated when people look at career totals but I think he sometimes gets underrated by those who focus too much on him playing with Lemieux and Jagr
In Pittsburgh? No. 1990 to 1992 Lemieux, Recchi, Stevens. After that Lemieux, Jágr, Stevens for a few more years. Maybe in the lockout year with Lemieux out completely you can argue for Francis. After that 1996 to 1998. That's 2.5 years rather than 7.5.
In Hartford he might have been a top 3 forward, but that's not much given they were rather unsuccessful all but one year.
I would be interested to see the era adjusted stats (sorry not sure the source or how to do this). Having watched both players I have the sense Francis was much more dynamic offensively, but it would be good to have a statistical backup.
I also get that he benefited from getting from playing with Jagr and Lemieux in terms of offense (especially on the PP) but he was the guy playing against the other teams’ top lines. I remember watching those teams and Francis was great. Totally underrated.
As i said, I can see Kopitar as having a better prime but for me 5th overall in all time scoring is just too special to ignore. Yes he got there by playing more games, but that’s also an achievement that only four other players have done.
It’s Francis and it’s not even close. Anyone suggesting otherwise is subscribing to the ‘newer is always better’ ideology.
BigBadBruins7708
Registered User
Kopitar
Francis is the poster child for why career totals need context
Francis is the poster child for why career totals need context
Ronnie is a legend, there is zero doubt there.
However, Kopitar has done more with less for his entire career. The dude has been “it” for the Kings offense his entire career, while playing both sides of the puck. His best offensive “help” has come in the form of an aging Justin Williams, one good playoff run from Gaborik, and Dustin brown. He has ran the show largely on his own.
It’s close, but it’s Kopi.
However, Kopitar has done more with less for his entire career. The dude has been “it” for the Kings offense his entire career, while playing both sides of the puck. His best offensive “help” has come in the form of an aging Justin Williams, one good playoff run from Gaborik, and Dustin brown. He has ran the show largely on his own.
It’s close, but it’s Kopi.
No, that’s just the nostalgia talking
norrisnick
The best...
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Quick n dirty H-R adjusted numbers has Francis with 1711 points in 1731 games and Kopitar with 1336 points in 1373 games. So raw offensive output, it's about a wash. What I will stick with though is that I'm pretty sure Kopitar is 3rd all time in most times leading his team in scoring behind only Gretzky and Gordie Howe. Unless he tied Howe in '23. Too lazy to look it up now.
BraveCanadian
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Massive underrating of Francis contribution to the Pens. He was better than Recchi, Stevens and early Jagr on the Cup challenging teams in the early 90s.. and was their second best player after Jagr once Jagr took over and Lemieux was gone. But most players, including Kopitar, would be.
He was called franchise for a reason.
norrisnick
The best...
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Because he has far more games played for Hartford/Carolina than anyone else (at the time) and it's a punny play off his last name. It's not like he's Ron Stewart and they called him Ronnie Franchise...
I’ll go with kopitar. He was the man and took all the hard matchups winning 2 cups in a cap era. Francis was a 2C on a loaded pens team in a non cap era with 2 cups.
1990/91
Stevens 80 40+46=86
Francis 14 2+9=11
1991/92
Stevens 80 54+69=123
Francis 70 21+33=54
1992/93
Stevens 72 55+56=111
Francis 84 24+76=100
1993/94
Stevens 83 41+47=88
Francis 82 27+66=93
Total
Stevens 315 190+218=408 (1.30 ppg) - 1x 1st All-Star, 2x 2nd All-Star, 1x Hart 8th
Francis 250 74+184=258 (1.03 ppg) - 2x Selke 6th
- Apr 27, 2005
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Kopitar would have owned Francis matching up in a best of 7 series. Francis was a great player but nowhere near the dominant force Kopitar was. If there was no Crosby/Malkin we'd have been talking about Kopitar as the best center of his generation.
M
Anyway, for me the biggest difference is the 490 additional era adjusted points (587 raw). The longevity is important and the fact that only 4 other players have scored more raw points demonstrates this. And I don’t see Kopitar ever getting there; if he plays another 358 games over 5 seasons he’ll reach the same games played but I expect his ppg (both raw and era adjusted) to keep going down from this point. Another way to compare would be to look at the first 1373 games of each player. Such a comparison would significantly improve Francis’ numbers as he too regressed after 35.
Thanks. So .988 vs .973. Can I ask, does that adjust each year stats individually? Just curious if you know.
Anyway, for me the biggest difference is the 490 additional era adjusted points (587 raw). The longevity is important and the fact that only 4 other players have scored more raw points demonstrates this. And I don’t see Kopitar ever getting there; if he plays another 358 games over 5 seasons he’ll reach the same games played but I expect his ppg (both raw and era adjusted) to keep going down from this point. Another way to compare would be to look at the first 1373 games of each player. Such a comparison would significantly improve Francis’ numbers as he too regressed after 35.
C’mon man. Stevens played with Jagr and Lemieux while Francis played the other teams’ top lines. Anyone who watched that Pens team knows Francis was more important to it than Stevens.
The all star selections are tougher for Francis as well as he was up against Mario, Wayne, Steve Y, and Sakic.
If you want to know the quality of player Stevens really was, take a look at how he did on other teams where he didn’t play with Mario and Jagr. Away from Pitts Francis still scored over 100 whereas Steven’s career high is 43.
Stevens was a good and physical complementary winger who had the two best line mates in history while Francis was a two-way play driving star.
I dunno.
Aside from total career numbers, I kinda feel like Francis was never considered a top 10 player in the league but Kopitar was.
Hard to compare different style players in different eras in different situations.
I'm gonna go with Kopitar.
I'll always remember Francis as a complimentary player on the Penguins who rode shotgun to vastly better players than him.
Aside from total career numbers, I kinda feel like Francis was never considered a top 10 player in the league but Kopitar was.
Hard to compare different style players in different eras in different situations.
I'm gonna go with Kopitar.
I'll always remember Francis as a complimentary player on the Penguins who rode shotgun to vastly better players than him.
Machinehead
HFNYR MVP
These results feel like heavy recency bias.
Francis is, pretty conservatively, one of the 20 best centers ever.
Francis is, pretty conservatively, one of the 20 best centers ever.
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