Remember the Caps and Blues

[justashadowof]

We start with the best collection of young forward talent in Toronto since 1958 and we're supposed to be happy with the consolation prize of perhaps making a Stanley Cup Finals (and perhaps winning it) sometime over a 15 year stretch of playoffs from that headstart.

It's a shameful waste of an opportunity. And I'd like to remind everyone that the Florida Panthers that trounced us were a younger team than our Leafs. Let that sink in.

 

[notbias]

We start with the best collection of young forward talent in Toronto since 1958 and we're supposed to be happy with the consolation prize of perhaps making a Stanley Cup Finals (and perhaps winning it) sometime over a 15 year stretch of playoffs from that headstart.

It's a shameful waste of an opportunity. And I'd like to remind everyone that the Florida Panthers that trounced us were a younger team than our Leafs. Let that sink in.

Let me remind you that the Panthers when they were winning, their best player, and the reason they went so far in the playoffs was 34 years old.

Their "younger" team was not good, their old goalie was.

I don't even think their core is younger than ours, probably the team overall, but not the core.

 

[notdoneyet]

The difference
Marner
Tavares
Matthews
Nylander

Ovie was one of the best players at the WJHC and battled against Sid. Auston Matthews played showcase hockey.

No he wasnt
When OV played against canada phaneuf and weber
Destroyed him every time he touched the puck. He quit and left the ice like a little baby

 

[TOGuy14]

Can we stop making this argument that if we run it back enough times we will eventually see better results?

I understand that progress isn't linear on the path to the cup but those teams all had strong cores of performers that needed the right mix of accessory pieces to figure things out.

The Leafs have shown ZERO GROWTH or awareness over the past seven years of playing. We won a round finally this year but got embarrassed out of the second by Florida (with a no show game 3 down 2-0 in the series) and Tampa largely outplayed us and likely would have beaten us if not for key injuries to their blue line.

You can already write the script for next season right now because it is the same thing every year:

Slow start to October

Guys saying it isn't acceptable, need to be better

Strong run in November / December

Mediocre results from Jan to March

Middling playoff appearance, questionable effort from star players

At the end of the day our biggest barrier isn't skill or depth or anything in between but simply finding a way to have our best players give a full 60 minute performance for multiple nights in a row, especially when it counts.

 

[ShaneFalco]

Can we stop making this argument that if we run it back enough times we will eventually see better results?

I understand that progress isn't linear on the path to the cup but those teams all had strong cores of performers that needed the right mix of accessory pieces to figure things out.

The Leafs have shown ZERO GROWTH or awareness over the past seven years of playing. We won a round finally this year but got embarrassed out of the second by Florida (with a no show game 3 down 2-0 in the series) and Tampa largely outplayed us and likely would have beaten us if not for key injuries to their blue line.

You can already write the script for next season right now because it is the same thing every year:

Slow start to October

Guys saying it isn't acceptable, need to be better

Strong run in November / December

Mediocre results from Jan to March

Middling playoff appearance, questionable effort from star players

At the end of the day our biggest barrier isn't skill or depth or anything in between but simply finding a way to have our best players give a full 60 minute performance for multiple nights in a row, especially when it counts.

Wiser's clap

 

[Suntouchable13]

You don’t need these high paid forwards if they easily get shutdown by the likes of Bobrovsky in the playoffs. What are they good for? You need “gamers” like Marchessault, Stone, Pietro, etc. Shanahan is a total idiot and a fool.

 

[mydnyte]

You don’t need these high paid forwards if they easily get shutdown by the likes of Bobrovsky in the playoffs. What are they good for? You need “gamers” like Marchessault, Stone, Pietro, etc. Shanahan is a total idiot and a fool.

Should Boston, and Carolina blow it up too? Boston was up 3-1 and had the best record in the history of the NHL and got "shutdown by the likes of Bobrovsky in the playoffs" ...fire and trade everyone!!

 

[Larcos_Unal]

So the solution is to keep paying these complacent, timid guys top dollar with the hope that someday a fire will light under their asses and they'll be ready for playoff wars??

 

[FerrisRox]

Like most Leafs fans, our lack of playoff success with this core bums me out. However … that doesn’t mean we should start over.

In Ovie’s first 12 seasons with the Caps, they never went past round 2. Year after year, ppl said this core couldn’t get it done, that they had soft players without the will to win. There were endless calls to tear it down, but they didn’t. They moved pieces around, but never moved the central core of Ovie, Backstrom, Kuzie, Carlson, Wilson, Holtby, etc. - Semin leaving as a UFA was the main core departure. In season 13 everything finally went their way, and they won the cup.

This is not really an accurate description of the Capitals.

Pretending they rolled back the same team for 13 seasons is just silly and clearly not true. Ovie went on a playoff run with Jose Theodore in goal and Mike Green was the Caps #1 blue liner before they moved on from him. They brought in playoff hero Justin Williams to add to their core and made a big trade to add T.J. Oshie to the mix and Lars Ellen was a key acquisition for that Cup team. The Capitals absolutely did not just roll out the same roster year after and add new depth players making the league minimum to the mix. That's just simply not accurate.

Also, comparing the Capitals playoff struggles to the Maple Leafs isn't remotely the same thing. Before winning the Cup, Ovechkin had, on five occasions, played more than ten games in a post-season. This current Leaf core has done it once.

Ovie also wasn't a playoff dud. He had a couple of down playoffs (one of them due to playing hurt) but he also had put up 21 points in just 14 game one spring and was over a point-a-game in three other playoffs. Backstroke had three playoffs of a point-a-game or better, two other post-seasons where he was just one point under a point-a-game. Oshie had 22 points in 25 playoff games as a Capital going into the 2018 post season. Even Carlsson, a defensemen, had put up 12 points in 12 playoff games two years before the Caps had won.

Sticking with one group is not the same as sticking with the other. The Capitals group had guys in it that had proven, time and time again, that they could deliver in the playoffs.

Should Boston, and Carolina blow it up too? Boston was up 3-1 and had the best record in the history of the NHL and got "shutdown by the likes of Bobrovsky in the playoffs" ...fire and trade everyone!!

I think Boston will blow it up, they don't really have much choice.

Carolina had two major offensive contributors injured for the full playoffs in Max Paccioretty and Andrei Svechnikov and Teuvo Tervainen playing hurt (and missing games in the playoffs.)

I think the outcome of their series with Florida, and quite possibly the Stanley Cup Final, is different if those guys are playing.

 

[Ianturnedbull]

I am just as hopeful as the OP. I think some of our core should extend, but not every single one.


When it comes to both STL and WSH they both had a lot of toughness throughout their lineup. Especially WSH: Oví, Orpik, Wilson, Smith-Pelly, etc. Oshie, Carlson,Eller, etc. all played aggressive/fearless hockey too.

Toronto still needs an overhaul to get to that level.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

You're right that we should do what Washington did. But for the PRECISE OPPOSITE reason than you're suggesting.

Let's look at the "core" you're describing.

Carson: Joined on Ovie's fifth season.

Wilson: Joined on Ovie's EIGHTH season.

Holtby: Became starter on Ovie's EIGHTH season.

Kuzie: Joined the team on Ovechkin's NINTH season.

The only real example you have is Backstrom.

Imagine the leafs this offseason reshuffling the entire core and only keeping Matthews. Imagine they win the cup in a few years. And now imagine someone like you saying "See? Good thing we kept the core together." It's insane. An insane take.

 

[All Mod Cons]

Remember the Knights and Kraken.

 

[Niagara Bill]

Like most Leafs fans, our lack of playoff success with this core bums me out. However … that doesn’t mean we should start over.

In Ovie’s first 12 seasons with the Caps, they never went past round 2. Year after year, ppl said this core couldn’t get it done, that they had soft players without the will to win. There were endless calls to tear it down, but they didn’t. They moved pieces around, but never moved the central core of Ovie, Backstrom, Kuzie, Carlson, Wilson, Holtby, etc. - Semin leaving as a UFA was the main core departure. In season 13 everything finally went their way, and they won the cup.

The Blues are a bit less similar to us, but they had 7 years of being a strong team, with a similar core that generally disappointed in the playoffs, tonnes of calls to break the team up. Then they won the cup in year 8.

People underrate the impact of luck in hockey - teams are so evenly balanced, bounces play a huge role. How often do we see nearly identical teams win a cup and lose in round 1 in back-to-back years? IMO our best chance to win a cup in the remotely near future is to extend Matthews, Marner and Nylander, and continue to build contenders around them and Rielly.

Sure, there are counter examples. The Sharks kept trying and never got there, there are zero guarantees. But everyone who wants to rebuild now, 7 years into Matthews’ Leafs career, would’ve also broken up the Caps WAY before their cup in year 13 with Ovie.

Nobody knows next year better than Leaf fans, heard it 56 times in a row

 

[Gary Nylund]

You don’t need these high paid forwards if they easily get shutdown by the likes of Bobrovsky in the playoffs. What are they good for? You need “gamers” like Marchessault, Stone, Pietro, etc. Shanahan is a total idiot and a fool.

I couldn't agree more and I've made this point many times before - if we keep getting "outgoalied" year after year no matter who the goalie is that we're facing, maybe it's not the goalies.

 

[andora]

But there isn't to much money locked into 4 players.

Every team has a similar percentage locked into their top 4 players, and those that don't will once their ELC's expire looking at Buffalo here.

But take Florida for example 44% of their cap in 4 players.

Vegas is similar with 39 million between Eichel AP, Stone, Karlsson, and Marsh.

That's 5 players and nearly 50% of Vegas cap.

This idea that Toronto spends to much money on 4 or 5 guys is bullshit, and all you to do to prove it's bullshit is look at the 2 teams that just went to the finals.

They both spend about half their cap on 4 or 5 guys.

Everybody does.

Its about the 4 forwards not guys.. forwards and similar ones at that.

 

[ShaneFalco]

I couldn't agree more and I've made this point many times before - if we keep getting "outgoalied" year after year no matter who the goalie is that we're facing, maybe it's not the goalies.

It's guys not willing to go to the net to create havoc and get bounces. None of the top paid players play a physical game. AM does when he chooses to from time to time

 

[AvroArrow]

Capitals brough in Barry Trotz who demanded a completely different level of effort from everybody and had his team play a complete 2 way game. Capitals also moved on from core pieces like Mike Green and Alex Semin. They also drafted a couple really important guys like Wilson/Kuzentsov and acquired TJ Oshie.

We're here running it back with the same coach and the same core, Dubas traded away so many 1sts we don't have too many young guys able to come in and make an impact.

The Blues were built way better than us and had a solid D-core, anchored by Pietro. They had depth and once again played a very physical 2 way game. Tarasenko, ROR, Schenn, Pietro, Parayko, Binnington was phenomenal in that run.


Our roster isn't balanced, not even close. We have very good D-man and that's it.

 

[francis246]

The difference
Marner
Tavares
Matthews
Nylander

Ovie was one of the best players at the WJHC and battled against Sid. Auston Matthews played showcase hockey.

What does this post even mean? A whole lot of nothing.

 

[francis246]

The difference
Marner
Tavares
Matthews
Nylander

Ovie was one of the best players at the WJHC and battled against Sid. Auston Matthews played showcase hockey.

Matthews not only dominated at the WJHC in 15/16, he also had 9 points in 10 games as a 17 year old at the World Championships that year too.

Again just nonsense to try and discredit our own players

 

[Ianturnedbull]

Capitals brough in Barry Trotz who demanded a completely different level of effort from everybody and had his team play a complete 2 way game. Capitals also moved on from core pieces like Mike Green and Alex Semin. They also drafted a couple really important guys like Wilson/Kuzentsov and acquired TJ Oshie.

We're here running it back with the same coach and the same core, Dubas traded away so many 1sts we don't have too many young guys able to come in and make an impact.

The Blues were built way better than us and had a solid D-core, anchored by Pietro. They had depth and once again played a very physical 2 way game. Tarasenko, ROR, Schenn, Pietro, Parayko, Binnington was phenomenal in that run.


Our roster isn't balanced, not even close. We have very good D-man and that's it.

Good post. Hi five.

 

[francis246]

Remember how Green & Semin were core pieces Washington moved on from and Stastny, Backes & Shattenkirk were core pieces St. Louis moved on from?

These teams didn't just tinker around the edges - there were some big changes to the actual core of the teams, and capspace was re-allocated towards key guys like Oshie, Niskanen, B. Schenn, ROR, etc.

If you ranked the top 5 most important core pieces to the Leafs when Tavares came here, they would have been Matthews, Marner, Rielly, Tavares, and Nylander (in no particular order). If you ranked them during the first year we made the playoffs, it would have been the same group minus Tavares, and maybe add in Kadri. So in 7 years, we've made one change to the actual core of this team, and that sole change was 5 years ago.

The leafs have moved on from core pieces. We’ve traded Kadri, Zaitsev and Brown (who all had pretty big roles) We let Hyman, Campbell and Anderson walk.

Prior to that we let Gardiner and JVR walk.

I think our situation is pretty similar to Washingtons, less so St. Louis’ . However the one fundamental flaw our organization has done is we let too many guys walk and did not get a return for them.

How we let Hyman walk to UFA was idiotic. How we let Bozak, JVR and Gardiner walk to UFA was idiotic as well.

We should have done better with the Kadri trade.

The other part is we’ve had some shit luck. Muzzin career ending injury, losing Tavares MTL series, Amirov cancer, Robertson has played less than 100 pro games in 3 years. It’s been tough; but hopefully our tides can turn. I believe in Treliving, if you look at his draft record and ability to build a defense, it’s what we need.

 

[francis246]

You don’t need these high paid forwards if they easily get shutdown by the likes of Bobrovsky in the playoffs. What are they good for? You need “gamers” like Marchessault, Stone, Pietro, etc. Shanahan is a total idiot and a fool.

Stone and Petro both make 9 million!!

 

[justashadowof]

Let me remind you that the Panthers when they were winning, their best player, and the reason they went so far in the playoffs was 34 years old.

Their "younger" team was not good, their old goalie was.

I don't even think their core is younger than ours, probably the team overall, but not the core.

An annual classic: The Burned By The Hot Goalie narrative amended to be Burned By The Hot Old Goalie.

Arguably the teams' core skaters:

Tavares 32
Rielly 29
Nylander 27
Matthews 25
Marner 26


Ekblad 27
Tkachuk 25
Barkov 27
Reinhart 27
Bennett 27
Verhaeghe 27

 

[Stephen]

Toronto’s long term Stanley Cup winning potential opens up a lot more post Tavares and the cap increases balanced against the new contracts of Matthews, Marner and Nylander. For the next two years I think it’s treading water with a top heavy, shallow team.

I don’t really see a path to victory unless the cap cripples a handful of teams more than Toronto over the next year or two.

 

[francis246]

Toronto’s long term Stanley Cup winning potential opens up a lot more post Tavares and the cap increases balanced against the new contracts of Matthews, Marner and Nylander. For the next two years I think it’s treading water with a top heavy, shallow team.

I don’t really see a path to victory unless the cap cripples a handful of teams more than Toronto over the next year or two.

I don’t think the gap between Florida and Toronto is that wide TBH. Yes the outplayed us in the playoffs but I don’t think we are worse than them. I know a lot of people don’t want to hear this but getting over that first round hump will help this team. Should be less focus on it now. I think that first round hump narrative completely caused us to self-implode in the second round. It really felt like that was all they were playing to accomplish sadly.

I think the coaching staff and players relaxed way too much as they put so much emotion into getting past that first round. Now that, that mental hurdle has been passed, I’m interested to see how they carry that mindset forward. Either way I do agree, we need to wait for that Tavares contract to expire.