Redraft 2015

[Pookie]

Knowing now that we have Matthews, do you take Provorov or Werenski over Marner?

Personally I would love Provorov

I don't know who I would have drafted but an interesting move that no GM would make is to look at which teams won't sustain their success and deal for their first round pick years from now.

It may be the only way to keep talent flowing into a team that isn't tanking.

If in 2014 you dealt someone to Colorado for their first round pick in the 2017 entry draft, you'd be a near lottery winner.

Colorado was on top and in full playoff mode.

GMs on the receiving end of the pick won't make it as many wouldn't be employed long enough to see the draft pick materialize.

But from a team building perspective, if you understand rosters and can peg a few teams that are old and contract heavy that are having success now... deal for their future.

 

[7even]

Mitch Marner, 19 years old, 61 points in 77 games, promising defensive awareness, bleeds blue, seems well liked by teammates. I'll take one pls

 

[Rick74*]

I love who we got. Looking forward not back

 

[93LEAFS]

I doubt Werenski repeats his numbers from this year. The PP he was on elite for most of the year at an unsustainable level.

We made the right choice, and I doubt the decision makers are regretting their choice or trading Mitch. As anyone who has watched Rielly or any young defender know that their development can be quite rocky. We will be defined by having a high-paced team with balanced scoring. We shouldn't give up our strength and advantage in the name of chasing balance.

 

[Brown Dog]

Love Magic Mitch. Not even thinking about what ifs on this one.

 

[ITM]

What players like Werenski falling to 8 should advise lamenting Leafs fans of, is the potential to mine very, very good defensemen (that is to say potential franchise defensemen) can be had outside of the top five. And we have the scouts to find them.

In a redraft, Marner isn't passed up for Strome.

I've said this before (and I sometimes question whether I heard correctly given the lack of agreement to the point repeatedly made), but prior to the 2015 draft, I'm positive Mark Hunter repeated Toronto's desire for a big centre i.e. Dylan Strome.

It's my contention he did so intentionally so as to seed in the minds of Arizona that Strome and not Marner was the better choice.

Now perhaps the attempt to drop to 8 was in anticipation of nabbing Mikko Rantanen or perhaps it was to acquire a defenseman. But the observation still stands...I think Marner was the target all along. And in a season where he is worthy of Calder consideration, I'm not sure how given everything we've seen and the condition of the franchise before his arrival (And Nylander's and Matthews'), how we can look the proverbial gift horse in the mouth, when we have (as someone noted above) a hockey genius whose only ever wanted to play for The Toronto Maple Leafs.

If we can't see something of destiny in drafting William Nylander lower than he should have gone, Mitch Marner lower than he should have gone, and being blessed with a lottery win to select Auston Matthews, then people...Something is seriously wrong.

 

[thewave]

What players like Werenski falling to 8 should advise lamenting Leafs fans of, is the potential to mine very, very good defensemen (that is to say potential franchise defensemen) can be had outside of the top five. And we have the scouts to find them.

In a redraft, Marner isn't passed up for Strome.

I've said this before (and I sometimes question whether I heard correctly given the lack of agreement to the point repeatedly made), but prior to the 2015 draft, I'm positive Mark Hunter repeated Toronto's desire for a big centre i.e. Dylan Strome.

It's my contention he did so intentionally so as to seed in the minds of Arizona that Strome and not Marner was the better choice.

Now perhaps the attempt to drop to 8 was in anticipation of nabbing Mikko Rantanen or perhaps it was to acquire a defenseman. But the observation still stands...I think Marner was the target all along. And in a season where he is worthy of Calder consideration, I'm not sure how given everything we've seen and the condition of the franchise before his arrival (And Nylander's and Matthews'), how we can look the proverbial gift horse in the mouth, when we have (as someone noted above) a hockey genius whose only ever wanted to play for The Toronto Maple Leafs.

If we can't see something of destiny in drafting William Nylander lower than he should have gone, Mitch Marner lower than he should have gone, and being blessed with a lottery win to select Auston Matthews, then people...Something is seriously wrong.

A good chunk of top 4D come in 15-60 picks. Explains why playoff teams often have extra quality defenders. I mean statistically, they did a study. I have been saying we need to load up on 2nds for this reason and was why I wasn't a fan of the Boyle trade.

 

[Morgs]

You have literally seen Werenski or Provorov play one season in the NHL. Neither looked like a #1 and D-men are way harder to predict career-wise than forwards.

Its a lot like the Kane draft. Hickey and Alzner went 4 and 5. Marner went 4 in his draft, Provorov 7 and Werenski 8.

Lets pump the brakes on a redraft until those two D actually establish themselves as top pairing guys. Remember Werenski was 4th on Columbus in TOI/game.

Uh, they're both #1 defenseman already. Werenski is better than Jones & that pairing was fantastic. Provorov carried Andrew McDonald all season, and still managed to put up 1st pairing numbers.

I'd keep Marner though.

 

[Walshy7]

I don't know who I would have drafted but an interesting move that no GM would make is to look at which teams won't sustain their success and deal for their first round pick years from now.

It may be the only way to keep talent flowing into a team that isn't tanking.

If in 2014 you dealt someone to Colorado for their first round pick in the 2017 entry draft, you'd be a near lottery winner.

Colorado was on top and in full playoff mode.

GMs on the receiving end of the pick won't make it as many wouldn't be employed long enough to see the draft pick materialize.

But from a team building perspective, if you understand rosters and can peg a few teams that are old and contract heavy that are having success now... deal for their future.

but then you could have a butterfly effect. The player you deal for their 1st could help them sustain success. despite what some think even the worst GM's aren't going to trade a 1st for a useless player so the player we gave them would have to be decent what if he finds another gear and all of a sudden you dealt a player for pick 25 instead of a high pick. Sure you still get a 1st out of the deal but was ~25th pick worth that player or have you now sold him cheap

 

[Walshy7]

What players like Werenski falling to 8 should advise lamenting Leafs fans of, is the potential to mine very, very good defensemen (that is to say potential franchise defensemen) can be had outside of the top five. And we have the scouts to find them.

In a redraft, Marner isn't passed up for Strome.

I've said this before (and I sometimes question whether I heard correctly given the lack of agreement to the point repeatedly made), but prior to the 2015 draft, I'm positive Mark Hunter repeated Toronto's desire for a big centre i.e. Dylan Strome.

It's my contention he did so intentionally so as to seed in the minds of Arizona that Strome and not Marner was the better choice.

Now perhaps the attempt to drop to 8 was in anticipation of nabbing Mikko Rantanen or perhaps it was to acquire a defenseman. But the observation still stands...I think Marner was the target all along. And in a season where he is worthy of Calder consideration, I'm not sure how given everything we've seen and the condition of the franchise before his arrival (And Nylander's and Matthews'), how we can look the proverbial gift horse in the mouth, when we have (as someone noted above) a hockey genius whose only ever wanted to play for The Toronto Maple Leafs.

If we can't see something of destiny in drafting William Nylander lower than he should have gone, Mitch Marner lower than he should have gone, and being blessed with a lottery win to select Auston Matthews, then people...Something is seriously wrong.

Matthews is so good he went lower than he should of gone too!!

 

[thewave]

Uh, they're both #1 defenseman already. Werenski is better than Jones & that pairing was fantastic. Provorov carried Andrew McDonald all season, and still managed to put up 1st pairing numbers.

I'd keep Marner though.

1D is worth more than a 1W most always. Would you rather OV or Burns, Doughty etc?? I take the D and want my winger to have a hard shot over playmaking ability although not complaining. Need the 1D to win and with a 1D we certainly take WSH to 7 and maybe win, probably contend actually which sounds odd.

 

[Morgs]

1D is worth more than a 1W most always. Would you rather OV or Burns, Doughty etc?? I take the D and want my winger to have a hard shot over playmaking ability although not complaining. Need the 1D to win and with a 1D we certainly take WSH to 7 and maybe win, probably contend actually which sounds odd.

..Ovie lol, bad example.

I understand 1D have more value over 1W, but we're talking about a guy who has the potential to be an Art Ross competitor on a yearly basis. I expect Marner to put up the most points of our 3 every year, but be the least complete. Shades of Patrick Kane, & that's not something you **** with.

 

[Walshy7]

1D is worth more than a 1W most always. Would you rather OV or Burns, Doughty etc?? I take the D and want my winger to have a hard shot over playmaking ability although not complaining. Need the 1D to win and with a 1D we certainly take WSH to 7 and maybe win, probably contend actually which sounds odd.

Werenski and provorov didn't make it past the 1st round either though. So this particular playoffs I don't think it would of made a differene, yes 1D more valuable than 1W but plenty of Dmen before Werenski have had excellent rookie years only to settle back to just "top pairing" as opposed to 1D (if that makes sense)

 

[Mess]

..Ovie lol, bad example.

I understand 1D have more value over 1W, but we're talking about a guy who has the potential to be an Art Ross competitor on a yearly basis. I expect Marner to put up the most points of our 3 every year, but be the least complete. Shades of Patrick Kane, & that's not something you **** with.

Because a 1D >> 1W, then the winger has to out produce the D by a significant amount or have a much bigger impact on the game.

Marner ----- 77 games 19 goals 42 assists 61 points
Werenski -- 78 games 11 goals 36 assists 47 points.

A 47 point rookie Dman >> 61 point rookie winger and the Calder voting backs that up, as playing D in the NHL at 19 and excelling much more difficult/impressive than a sheltered winger position.

Also finding scoring winger are much easier to obtain, as JVR (29g 63 points) and Nylander (22g 61 points) also scored more and provided similar points to Mitch.

In addition 3 other forwards Matthews (40), Kadri(32) and Brown (20) scored more goals then Marner and the 1st X 2 also more points.

Whereas Werenski 44 g & 47 points > Gardiner 9g & 43 points (Leafs top scoring Dman), would have lead Leafs entire D in scoring.

In the laws of supply and demand it demonstrates on team needs the value of a top pairing scoring Dman verses a scoring winger who is 6th in team goals and 5th in points.

 

[thewave]

Werenski and provorov didn't make it past the 1st round either though. So this particular playoffs I don't think it would of made a differene, yes 1D more valuable than 1W but plenty of Dmen before Werenski have had excellent rookie years only to settle back to just "top pairing" as opposed to 1D (if that makes sense)

If you told me there was a 1D, pretty much lock for Doughty or Hedman level... Same age etc, I would trade Nylander or Marner. Not Matthews because we need a Franchise C. Nylander could become a franchise C possibly but we would still need a Franchise D. Wingers I don't really care about as much because lol, they are wingers for a reason (lacking a dimension that would enable them to be a C)

 

[BodaciousBeefBazooka]

He doesn't really show up in the playoffs so there's a re-draft thread now? ok

 

[Morgs]

Because a 1D >> 1W, then the winger has to out produce the D by a significant amount or have a much bigger impact on the game.

Marner ----- 77 games 19 goals 42 assists 61 points
Werenski -- 78 games 11 goals 36 assists 47 points.

A 47 point rookie Dman >> 61 point rookie winger and the Calder voting backs that up, as playing D in the NHL at 19 and excelling much more difficult/impressive than a sheltered winger position.

Also finding scoring winger are much easier to obtain, as JVR (29g 63 points) and Nylander (22g 61 points) also scored more and provided similar points to Mitch.

In addition 3 other forwards Matthews (40), Kadri(32) and Brown (20) scored more goals then Marner and the 1st X 2 also more points.

Whereas Werenski 44 g & 47 points > Gardiner 9g & 43 points (Leafs top scoring Dman), would have lead Leafs entire D in scoring.

In the laws of supply and demand it demonstrates on team needs the value of a top pairing scoring Dman verses a scoring winger who is 6th in team goals and 5th in points.

You're comparing one NHL season for both. Yes, right now Werenski > Marner value wise, but you can't seriously judge this pick until about 5 years from now. What if Marner has 2 Art Ross wins, and Werenski has stagnated at an Ekblad level pace? Any absolutes right now is just nonsense, and no we shouldn't wish we had one of those guys over Marner.

 

[thewave]

You're comparing one NHL season for both. Yes, right now Werenski > Marner value wise, but you can't seriously judge this pick until about 5 years from now. What if Marner has 2 Art Ross wins, and Werenski has stagnated at an Ekblad level pace? Any absolutes right now is just nonsense, and no we shouldn't wish we had one of those guys over Marner.

I can tell you we need a D more than a winger. In a bad way.

 

[Walshy7]

If you told me there was a 1D, pretty much lock for Doughty or Hedman level... Same age etc, I would trade Nylander or Marner. Not Matthews because we need a Franchise C. Nylander could become a franchise C possibly but we would still need a Franchise D. Wingers I don't really care about as much because lol, they are wingers for a reason (lacking a dimension that would enable them to be a C)

if there was a 1D lock for Doughty level we wouldn't need to worry because Matthews + wouldn't get him, werenski is far from a lock to be doughty.

 

[blueberrie]

We look like we're about to run with three different 1A/1B lines for the next 5+ years... No, I'm okay with what we have.

 

[thewave]

if there was a 1D lock for Doughty level we wouldn't need to worry because Matthews + wouldn't get him, werenski is far from a lock to be doughty.

Point being.. Werenski is no closer to Doughty than Marner is to Kane.

 

[NarcoPolo]

Uh, they're both #1 defenseman already. Werenski is better than Jones & that pairing was fantastic. Provorov carried Andrew McDonald all season, and still managed to put up 1st pairing numbers.

I'd keep Marner though.

Werenski is not better than Jones. Not at all.

 

[thewave]

We look like we're about to run with three different 1A/1B lines for the next 5+ years... No, I'm okay with what we have.

So am I, wish we kept that 2nd and tried to get more. I like the D in this draft that are sleepers. Foote is my main target. I also like Valiev and Carrick I was raving about and the Trade that brought him being the best deal of the TDL.

 

[Mess]

You're comparing one NHL season for both. Yes, right now Werenski > Marner value wise, but you can't seriously judge this pick until about 5 years from now. What if Marner has 2 Art Ross wins, and Werenski has stagnated at an Ekblad level pace? Any absolutes right now is just nonsense, and no we shouldn't wish we had one of those guys over Marner.

What happens if Werenski wins a Norris as Best Dman someday?

Werenski is already in his rookie year essentially top 12 in Dman scoring in the league and QB the CBJ PP at 19 fresh out of college.

Does that mean Marner needs to win NHL scoring titles to offset the value of a scoring winger compared to a #1D?.

Morgan Rielly considered Leafs best Dman with career best after 4 seasons is 9 goals and 36 points compared to 11 goals and 47 points for Werenski as a rookie. That sets his potential >> Leafs top Dman currently. Leafs need a top pairing Dman as its greatest need right now.

Both youngsters had outstanding rookie seasons no question and time will tell but after year #1 for both in a redraft of 2015 (as of today) I think Werenski > Marner. IMO

 

[NarcoPolo]

So am I, wish we kept that 2nd and tried to get more. I like the D in this draft that are sleepers. Foote is my main target. I also like Valiev and Carrick I was raving about and the Trade that brought him being the best deal of the TDL.

Timmins is your main target, you just don't know it yet