Confirmed with Link: Red Wings sign D Justin Holl 3 years, 10.2M (3.4M AAV)

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Holl is a good addition.

Played as 2nd pair role for Leafs, over his head.

He is 3rd pair guy for us, and probably gonna be very good, because he doesn't have to play over his head.

Solid 1st PK guy, upgrade for Seider, who is still raw PK guys and can learn things from Holl.

Walman - Seider
Chiarot - Gostisbehere
Määttä - Holl
 
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Much better pairings than last season imo. Oesterle was my least favorite Red Wing...and that's saying something with Ben Chiarot on this team.

Also hoping at some point that we get a look at:

Walman - Seider
Gostisbehere - Holl
Määttä - Chiarot

Two guys in the bottom four that can play either side should give Fester lots of matchup options.
 
Leafs fans about to send Yzerman an edible arrangement for taking their right-handed Jonathan Ericsson.
I missed big rig, offensively he was meh , but cleared front of net very good, also was tough could drop gloves

Holl is a good addition.

Played as 2nd pair role for Leafs, over his head.

He is 3rd pair guy for us, and probably gonna be very good, because he doesn't have to play over his head.

Solid 1st PK guy, upgrade for Seider, who is still raw PK guys and can learn things from Holl.

Walman - Seider
Chiarot - Gostisbehere
Määttä - Holl
Anyone who plays with Maatta becomes much better, so don't get jealous and mad leaves fans
 
Holl is a good addition.

Played as 2nd pair role for Leafs, over his head.

He is 3rd pair guy for us, and probably gonna be very good, because he doesn't have to play over his head.

Solid 1st PK guy, upgrade for Seider, who is still raw PK guys and can learn things from Holl.

Walman - Seider
Chiarot - Gostisbehere
Määttä - Holl
No it isn't a good addition. He is awful defensively, he is another Brendan Smith. Good checker, decent skater but has no clue how to play actual defense.

The only thing Seider is going to learn from Holl is what not to do and he got plenty of time that last season from Chiarot.
 
Kind of all are looking good.

That's what will happen, when the team does not have really any weaknesses, bad forward lines etc. When the depth is there, it cumulates good stats for all, when we play more at offensive end.


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He can definitely be beat by faster teams but I've liked him on the PK and in front of the net. He isn't a bad bottom pair defender. He is repetitive with Chia and Petry but so far he's probably played the best of the 3.
 
He can definitely be beat by faster teams but I've liked him on the PK and in front of the net. He isn't a bad bottom pair defender. He is repetitive with Chia and Petry but so far he's probably played the best of the 3.

Holl has been pretty good but in my mind there had to be cheaper options. Its only 3 years but still.

Its not as bad as Chiarot though...
 
Kind of all are looking good.

That's what will happen, when the team does not have really any weaknesses, bad forward lines etc. When the depth is there, it cumulates good stats for all, when we play more at offensive end.


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Yea the stats had more depth to what the eyes should see fairly easily. Last night you could see what Lalonde is looking for. Best buy in from the forwards as a whole, constantly backchecking, they suffocated the Jackets defensively.
 
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1st Rule of HFboards - If you don't have anything to contribute about a player, just bitch about his contract as an abstract obstacle.

Not sure what you're getting at? It's a cap world and dollar/performance matters even if you're not a cup team. Do you think Holl and Chiarot are performing up to their contract values?
 
He hasn't looked like dog shit so far but that contract is gonna piss us off soon enough.

He's a good 3rd pair defenseman getting paid what good 3rd pair defensemen get paid. This isn't 2013. And if you want quality depth you need to pay it more than league minimum. Holl's contract is fine.

Not sure what you're getting at? It's a cap world and dollar/performance matters even if you're not a cup team. Do you think Holl and Chiarot are performing up to their contract values?

You get what you pay for more often than not. Go ahead and make a list of names of #6 defensemen that are getting paid less than Holl that are better than him. Then see how many of those guys are on 1st and 2nd contracts. For a guy to play decent 5v5, strong on PK and block shots 3 mil is fine. Moveable deals don't cripple teams.
 
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You get what you pay for more often than not. Go ahead and make a list of names of #6 defensemen that are getting paid less than Holl that are better than him. Then see how many of those guys are on 1st and 2nd contracts. For a guy to play decent 5v5, strong on PK and block shots 3 mil is fine. Moveable deals don't cripple teams.
he is also on a contract that is going to roughly 4% of the salary cap next year (87.5). Essentially nothing
 
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Not sure what you're getting at? It's a cap world and dollar/performance matters even if you're not a cup team. Do you think Holl and Chiarot are performing up to their contract values?

No probably not. But Seider is far outstripping his. Raymond is far outstripping his. Larkin still is. Debrincat is.

You're not going to have massive wins on contract value/performance everywhere. No team will ever be that good at roster management.

Holl and Chiarot are also performing a hell of a lot closer to their contract values than what everyone who will ever bitch about their contracts may think.

The Wings are still quite far under the cap and will be even when they have to extend Raymond and Seider.

Dollar/performance matters when you're cap-crunched and it's stopping you from making moves. Shit, at the nadir of Ken Holland's time here... he still had 10M+ annually free if a guy like Tavares or Stamkos or otherwise sprung free. You don't get an award for being the lowest under the cap.

Holl and Chiarot and Gostisbehere and everyone else all have ludicrously movable contracts if worst came to worst. Not like Justin Abdelkader who was playing at an ECHL level in year 3 of his 4.5m contract under a cap that was around 15M lower. The cap is also going to go boom in the last couple years of those deals.
 
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He's a good 3rd pair defenseman getting paid what good 3rd pair defensemen get paid. This isn't 2013. And if you want quality depth you need to pay it more than league minimum. Holl's contract is fine.



You get what you pay for more often than not. Go ahead and make a list of names of #6 defensemen that are getting paid less than Holl that are better than him. Then see how many of those guys are on 1st and 2nd contracts. For a guy to play decent 5v5, strong on PK and block shots 3 mil is fine. Moveable deals don't cripple teams.

Aight maybe I'm wrong. Still not sure where I "bitched" about his contract though.

But it will take a lot of evidence to convince me Chiarots contract is fine on the other hand :laugh:
 
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Aight maybe I'm wrong. Still not sure where I "bitched" about his contract though.

But it will take a lot of evidence to convince me Chiarots contract is fine on the other hand :laugh:

I don't think anyone is saying Chiarot's contract was ever good. I think (without looking back at old threads) that most wings fans panned the Chiarot contract, and the ones that didn't were hopefully he could perform like a solid #3/4 guy (which is what he's paid as) and prove detractors wrong. He's instead playing like a mid to subpar #5 guy which is in the 2.5 to 3 mil range.

I think after this year he's a dump candidate and we may have to move something else to move him. Viro, Johansson, a 2nd maybe.
 
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I don't think anyone is saying Chiarot's contract was ever good. I think (without looking back at old threads) that most wings fans panned the Chiarot contract, and the ones that didn't were hopefully he could perform like a solid #3/4 guy (which is what he's paid as) and prove detractors wrong. He's instead playing like a mid to subpar #5 guy which is in the 2.5 to 3 mil range.

I think after this year he's a dump candidate and we may have to move something else to move him. Viro, Johansson, a 2nd maybe.

Do we need to dump him? Thought we had cap space to ride his contract out.
 
I don't think anyone is saying Chiarot's contract was ever good. I think (without looking back at old threads) that most wings fans panned the Chiarot contract, and the ones that didn't were hopefully he could perform like a solid #3/4 guy (which is what he's paid as) and prove detractors wrong. He's instead playing like a mid to subpar #5 guy which is in the 2.5 to 3 mil range.

I think after this year he's a dump candidate and we may have to move something else to move him. Viro, Johansson, a 2nd maybe.
I was just hoping chiarot would be a physical presence, clear the crease, and "stay at home". For some reason, it seems like he feels the need to be an offensive weapon when he clearly isn't. He tries to pinch on the half wall like maatta, but clearly maatta knows how/when to do it because it doesn't seem like he is ever caught.

Would be awesome if chiarot would try to at least learn how maatta does it.

Do we need to dump him? Thought we had cap space to ride his contract out.
wouldn't be about his cap at that point. It would be to get rid of a defensive liability.
 
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Do we need to dump him? Thought we had cap space to ride his contract out.

We have time to ride out Chiarot's contract but it will slow down potential improvements.

Dumping Chiarot with no retention and use that roster spot on a kid like Edvinsson or Wallinder makes the team faster, bigger, better at moving the puck. And it doesn't really sacrifice the physicality that Chiarot brings.

Same goes for dumping Petry. If games 1 and 2 are an indication of what we're getting with him, then retaining on him and dumping what's left of his contract is also going to be a boost to the team.

Walman - Seider
Edvinsson - Holl
Maatta - Ghost

I think that defense can do a good job moving the puck and provide enough speed and physicality. Ideally I'd like someone else in the 2nd pair RD spot but Holl as a steadying partner for rookie Edvinsson wouldn't be terrible.
 
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This was literally no one who is comparable to Holl in terms of ability, availability, term, and cost. This is the Copp argument all over again. You want to sign an UFA RHD between the ages of 28-32 who isn't an absolute liability one one or both of the ends of the ice? 3-4M dollars a year is what its going to cost you.

To save time and pages of back and forth, here are the obvious retorts:

"What about Scott Mayfield? I'd rather have him" - was never in play. Was resigned and to a SEVEN year deal. Remember, the point of these stopgap FA's that Yzerman is signing to to make sure they phase out or are tradable if and when one of our prospects pop. Long term deals are not on the table right now unless you are Larkin or Seider.

"Holls not's worth 3.4M!!" - By market rate, he absolutely is. Holl is in his prime earning years. You wanted a semi-competent D-man, it's going to cost you either in money or a term. Other UFA D's his age on the 2nd half of their prime years following a bridge:

Orlov (31yo) 2x 7.75MAAV
Gudas (33yo) 3x 4AAV
Schenn (33yo) 2x 2.75AAV

OR you could chase the 1st time UFA on the front half of their window (28yos):

Mayfield (28yo) 7x 3.5AAV
Graves (28yo) 6x 4.5AAV
Clifton (28yo)3x 3.3AAV
Soucy (28yo) 3 3.2AAV

That's it... that's the options. Outside of Orlov (too expensive) and Mayfield and Graves (crazy term and never in play), I wouldn't say any of these guys are better value at term or contract than what Holl is.

"Gudas is a beast!" - sure, he hits hard but he is also 33 years old, plays an incredible physical game, hasn't played a completed season in like a decade due to injuries or suspensions, can't contribute offensively, and is already on the decline. You think 33 Gudas is meh? Wait till you see 36 year old Gudas!

"We should've just signed a guy for 1yr till Ed is ready!" - we did, that's Shayne Gostisbehere.

"Instead of Holl and his 3yrs! Just sign a guy!" - Okay, Your last real option outside of this was to give a 1yr - moderate money deal to an aging veteran who had serious warts or is looking to reboot their value: OEL, Klingberg, DeAngelo, Cole, Shattenkirk, Erik Johnson, Marc Staal, etc. ...but those guys are either expensive or so old or broken, that is basically adding another Petry. Or we could add in a young, cheap guy which is exactly the kind of guys we were signing the last 3 years and everyone was losing it because they were awful (Strecher, Oesterle, McIllrath, Hagg, Nemeth, etc.). So we went down that route for the last few years while we cleared the books and built up the pipe and the organization again.

Holl is not a world beater. But he is a perfectly fine RHD capable of filling a spot Bottom 4 and is definitely not overprices, or have too much term, etc.
 
He got caught against Lightning. And it led to a goal.
yes but that wasn't a pinch in. I was going to say that too but just didn't see that as a pinch in. he shot the puck terribly into hedman's stomach.

He did get beat (hagel, yes?). but that was more of him taking that terrible shot. As soon as I saw him try to shoot through hagel like that, I was praying for a bounce because you could just see something bad about to happen.

edit: just realized i said the exact same thing twice. so you can just take whatever "paragraph" that was more appealing 🤷‍♂️
 

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