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Confirmed with Link: Red Wings sign D Justin Holl 3 years, 10.2M (3.4M AAV)

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Manabu said:
Not sure what you're getting at? It's a cap world and dollar/performance matters even if you're not a cup team. Do you think Holl and Chiarot are performing up to their contract values?
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The cap is not and has never been an end to itself. The league does not award additional wins for managing the cap. As such, posters miss the forest by perseverating on each player's contract terms. Even if you found a more "affordable" replacement for Holl or Chiarot, your cap savings are literally meaningless unless you can use them to sign players who make your team better. Those available cap dollars are nothing more than an opportunity, and one that comes with no guarantees. To that end, I would encourage you to follow the UFA market more closely. The days of finding great, 28-year-old top-six centers or top pair defensemen in free agency are long f***ing gone. The market is nothing short of pathetic (and is the reason people like Chiarot and Holl command the contracts they receive as unrestricted free agents). If you gave us more cap dollars tomorrow, we would find ourselves in a Brewster's Millions situation where we literally could not spend them.

Moreover, everyone knows about Chiarot's and Holl's contracts. Everything that could be said about them has already been said. It is time for new material.
 
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norrisnick said:
Walked? You mean when Mo shepherded him into the corner?
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You're correct on the first goal. I'm thinking of an instance where Hughes didn't score but walked Seider and had a prime chance. My point stands that nobody is perfect. All defensemen make mistakes from time to time. Some are better at recovering from those mistakes than others.
 
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Rzombo4 prez said:
The cap is not and has never been an end to itself. The league does not award additional wins for managing the cap. As such, posters miss the forest by perseverating on each player's contract terms. Even if you found a more "affordable" replacement for Holl or Chiarot, your cap savings are literally meaningless unless you can use them to sign players who make your team better. Those available cap dollars are nothing more than an opportunity, and one that comes with no guarantees. To that end, I would encourage you to follow the UFA market more closely. The days of finding great, 28-year-old top-six centers or top paid defensemen in free agency are long f***ing gone. The market is nothing short of pathetic (and is the reason people like Chiarot and Holl command the contracts they receive as unrestricted free agents). If you gave us more cap dollars tomorrow, we would find ourselves in a Brewster's Millions situation where we literally could not spend them.

Moreover, everyone knows about Chiarot's and Holl's contracts. Everything that could be said about them has already been said. It is time for new material.
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This 100%. The cap ensures three things
1) Cost certainty.
2) Teams have to spend money and cannot tank while saving money (a la the Astros in MLB)
3) Teams have to keep their spending reined in because they have to fit a full roster under the cap.

No more, no less. If you're under the cap, you're good. The closer you are to the cap, the less flexibility you have to make moves (as any trades would have to be cap-neutral or freeing up cap, which would increase the price and any signings would necessitate a trade or waiving of a player). However, flexibility on making moves is also limited by those who you can deal with, such as a lackluster UFA pool or teams who have their own roster structure to think of. A contract like Abdelkader or Nielsen's would not have been terrible if they were three year deals at those dollar amounts when they were signed. The cap hits were fine. The problem became that both players fell to near unplayable status in year 2 of a 7 or 6 year deal respectively and were worthless on the trade market too. Even worse, you had those two commanding almost 10M while providing no value while simultaneously having a weak enough prospect pool you couldn't push them off the roster.

And even with those dead-weight contracts, the Wings had the money to chase Tavares as a UFA if they chose. They had money every year, but Holland would use it every year to get close to the cap because LTIR and the aforementioned reason that the cap doesn't really matter until you're crunched by it.
 
RED WINGS STOMP said:
Haven't noticed him making D zone turnovers like Chiarot and especially Petry do(and sadly sometimes even Mo).

Give it some more time, but I don't think he is going to be a total pylon like some thought.
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That pylon thing was anyhow overblown, thanks to idiotic Maple LEafs fans.

Holl has been solid regular season player for years. He made some mistakes at last playoffs, and their fans did throw him under the bus, only because of those few playoff mistakes.

Few mistakes won't change the big picture. Holl is a good bottom pairing defenceman. Maple Leafs will have their same organizational or even bigger problems at next playoffs, without Justin Holl.
 
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Lazlo Hollyfeld said:
He played almost 20 minutes last night and other than the holding call I didn't really notice him, which is a good thing.

As for the contract, I can't see how $3.4 million for a couple more seasons is gonna make or break anything.
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He played 20 minutes against the worst team in the league last year and didn't look terrible.
When the bar is a foot high it is easy to jump over it.
 
Manabu said:
Not sure what you're getting at? It's a cap world and dollar/performance matters even if you're not a cup team. Do you think Holl and Chiarot are performing up to their contract values?
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They've played three games, how exactly are you evaluating the value of Holl's contract at this point? I mean whatever metric your using.... well come on, you're trolling, so metrics not needed there eh.
 
Go Wings said:
He played 20 minutes against the worst team in the league last year and didn't look terrible.
When the bar is a foot high it is easy to jump over it.
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And?

The defense needs to get better, but Holl is far from the worst problem.
 
norrisnick said:
Walked? You mean when Mo shepherded him into the corner?
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and then hughes placed a near top 2% shot off husso's head lol.

Henkka said:
That pylon thing was anyhow overblown, thanks to idiotic Maple LEafs fans.

Holl has been solid regular season player for years. He made some mistakes at last playoffs, and their fans did throw him under the bus, only because of those few playoff mistakes.

Few mistakes won't change the big picture. Holl is a good bottom pairing defenceman. Maple Leafs will have their same organizational or even bigger problems at next playoffs, without Justin Holl.
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leafs fans need someone to blame it on because it would be impossible for them to believe that it just might be one or all of tavares, mathews, marner's fault.

There is a reason why pure offense teams don't typically win the cup. That pesky little thing called defense to help the goalie actually matters a bit. Man have they ruined some good goalies
 
Steve Yzerlland said:
Head scratcher signing. With him and Chiarot what a waste of cap space...
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Seriously, what do you get out of this? What do you get from bitching about mediocre players being paid mediocre salaries for short to medium term who are pretty much all instantly movable if you retain some on them if you had to?

Holl has not looked bad. Chiarot has been pretty average and overall the Wings have looked very solid through three games.

It’s head scratching why every single thought related to this team is negative by you and another solid third of this board
 
WF19 said:
There have been a few defenseman that have come from the Leafs over the years that Leaf fans were all over then came to Detroit and were pretty solid.
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Holl is not going to one. By mid season we will want him gone.
 
Henkka said:
That pylon thing was anyhow overblown, thanks to idiotic Maple LEafs fans.

Holl has been solid regular season player for years. He made some mistakes at last playoffs, and their fans did throw him under the bus, only because of those few playoff mistakes.

Few mistakes won't change the big picture. Holl is a good bottom pairing defenceman. Maple Leafs will have their same organizational or even bigger problems at next playoffs, without Justin Holl.
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Some mistakes are you for real?
In 5 games against Tampa last year Justin Holl was on the ice for 14 out of the 19 goals that Tampa scored on Toronto. He was absolutely awful and deserved all the flak he got.
 
OgeeOgelthorpe said:
That happens to everyone. Seider got walked by Hughes and it led to a goal against. Is he a bad defenseman for that? No. Nobody is a perfect defender like Lidstrom in the league.
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I remember Lidstrom got walked by Bure just like he didn't even exist. Mistakes are the reason why they play games instead of giving it to the Maple Leafs or Pens each and every year.
 
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I think Holl is fine as a bottom pair/ pk dman. He can absolutely get walked by fast skilled players but I have really liked his game in front of the net so far. If you start him in the defensive zone and give him a bunch of PK time he can be useful. He just isn't someone you want playing a ton in transition.

Petry + Holl+ Chia is quite a bit of money wrapped up in 3 of the same players with the same flaws. It'll be very hard to run a D with all 3 playing as it opens up a big weakness for us, which we sort of saw in the 1st two games played. Teams can absolutely hammer us with a stretch pass with those 3 on the ice. It's also why Eds makes such a good partner for these types of guys. He has the passing, skating, and reach to do really well in the transition game (both sides), while they help keep the net front clear and along the boards where Ed is still pretty week.
 
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cvaicunas said:
They've played three games, how exactly are you evaluating the value of Holl's contract at this point? I mean whatever metric your using.... well come on, you're trolling, so metrics not needed there eh.
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Yes, I'm trolling or I'm quite new on these boards and didn't know the fan base had some kind of PTSD over cap/contracts debates.

I'll see myself out
 
Go Wings said:
Some mistakes are you for real?
In 5 games against Tampa last year Justin Holl was on the ice for 14 out of the 19 goals that Tampa scored on Toronto. He was absolutely awful and deserved all the flak he got.
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He played top-4 while he is your classic 3rd line D on a well structured team. Toronto is not well structured.

Do you remember Lilja?
 
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